Craig Counsell

[AKCheesehead]

Not to mention the fact that if your goal is to be world champions, there is the potential to play as many as 183 games to get there.

[Jopal78]

Anyone wanting to ride these arms to 8 innings/100+ pitches in April after the short 2020 season must have really liked 2011 Shaun Marcum in September/October, because that is how these guys are going to perform if you treat them like that.

 

Did Marcum really run out of gas, or merely had three bad starts at the wrong time? I looked back at the play by play from 2011. In the NLDS he had only given up three hits and two walks in the first four innings of the game (1.25 WHIP). In the 5th inning he gave up a single to the pitcher on an 0-2 count, then a single to Aaron Hill the lead off man on a 0-1 count. He retired the next to batters. Then Roenicke intentionally walks Miguel Montero to get to Goldschmidt, who hit a 1-2 pitch for a grand slam.

 

Against the Cardinals, Pujols the league MVP had four RBIs against him in the first game (His OPS was over 1.000 in the post season that year). In Game 6 Marcum gave up a two out, first pitch 3 run homer to David Freese who had an OPS over 1.000 in the playoffs that year with 15 extra base hits and 21 RBI.

 

Totally off topic I know, but it’s interesting how we remember these things. Marcum didn’t really let them down with poor pitching. He made a mistake on a pitch at the wrong time against Goldschmidt, and ran into two white hot hitters on the Cardinals so his pitching line looks terrible

[FVBrewerFan]

This thread is going to look silly in October.

I don't think it will look particularly silly. My original post (OP) in the thread clearly indicates Counsell is a solid manager and I don't want any other person managing the team. I think a majority of the posts have indicated the same thing. That does not absolve him from being critiqued. The critique I referenced in the OP really indicates that Counsell has fallen more into a traditional manager (Williams 8th, Hader 9th inning guys) than the innovator he was at the beginning of his tenure and a lack of answers for a stagnant offense. Sure some of it can be chalked up to rule changes like the 3 batter minimum, but 3 hot games of hitting does not cure all ails.

 

Now, if the Crew continues to hit the way it has over the past 3 games (which I hope it does), I will gladly eat crow related to Counsell, Haines and Cruz. Similar to the crow most of us have eaten in the past two years regarding Chris Hook. Keep in mind, no one was advocating for Counsell to be fired, only that he shoulder some of the blame related to the Brewers not hitting. Let's see Hiura, JBJ, Urias, and Cain get their averages above the Mendoza line before we declare the Brewers hitting issues have been solved.

 

I would still like for Counsell to be more the innovator he was in 2017-2019 timeframe, but I understand the changing of the rules of the game may limit that innovation a bit.

 

I don't blame a manager for how hitters hit. Ok, maybe .001% responsible. Cain is 35 and missed all of last year. Hiura struck out a ton in the minors, and some of feared he was no guaranteed hit machine. To be fair, I don't give CC credit for Shaw or Narvaez either.

 

Innovation. Well, much of that comes from analytics/ Stearns. They may finally have the luxury to go the traditional approach. Starters generally going 6, couple options for the 7th with a lead, 8th inning guy, closer. Just because that's traditional doesn't mean it's not the best approach with this staff.

[DuWayne Steurer]

It doesn't matter what Marcum was in 2011. What matters is how pitchers are being used in 2021, and nobody is going to be tossed out there in early April for 8 innings or 110 pitches or whatever.

 

The NL is averaging 5.2 IP per start, and 83 pitches per start by a starting pitcher.

 

The AL is averaging 4.9 IP per start, and 83 pitches per start.

 

There are STILL people who say (maybe not here, but you know the type) "we need to get a guy who consistently goes out and gets 7 or 8 innings every time out!"

 

That literally doesn't even exist anymore. Pulling Burnes or Woodruff at 77 or 83 pitches is the way the game is managed now. People can disagree with it, but that's the way the game is played.

[Baldkin]

Anyone wanting to ride these arms to 8 innings/100+ pitches in April after the short 2020 season must have really liked 2011 Shaun Marcum in September/October, because that is how these guys are going to perform if you treat them like that.

 

Did Marcum really run out of gas, or merely had three bad starts at the wrong time? I looked back at the play by play from 2011. In the NLDS he had only given up three hits and two walks in the first four innings of the game (1.25 WHIP). In the 5th inning he gave up a single to the pitcher on an 0-2 count, then a single to Aaron Hill the lead off man on a 0-1 count. He retired the next to batters. Then Roenicke intentionally walks Miguel Montero to get to Goldschmidt, who hit a 1-2 pitch for a grand slam.

 

Against the Cardinals, Pujols the league MVP had four RBIs against him in the first game (His OPS was over 1.000 in the post season that year). In Game 6 Marcum gave up a two out, first pitch 3 run homer to David Freese who had an OPS over 1.000 in the playoffs that year with 15 extra base hits and 21 RBI.

 

Totally off topic I know, but it’s interesting how we remember these things. Marcum didn’t really let them down with poor pitching. He made a mistake on a pitch at the wrong time against Goldschmidt, and ran into two white hot hitters on the Cardinals so his pitching line looks terrible

 

Marcum last 24.1 innings regular season (4 starts):

ERA BA OBP SLG OPS

6.66 .327 .374 .551 .925

 

Marcum playoffs:

ERA BA OBP SLG OPS

14.90 .395 .458 .674 1.133

[rickh150]

Anyone wanting to ride these arms to 8 innings/100+ pitches in April after the short 2020 season must have really liked 2011 Shaun Marcum in September/October, because that is how these guys are going to perform if you treat them like that.

 

Did Marcum really run out of gas, or merely had three bad starts at the wrong time? I looked back at the play by play from 2011. In the NLDS he had only given up three hits and two walks in the first four innings of the game (1.25 WHIP). In the 5th inning he gave up a single to the pitcher on an 0-2 count, then a single to Aaron Hill the lead off man on a 0-1 count. He retired the next to batters. Then Roenicke intentionally walks Miguel Montero to get to Goldschmidt, who hit a 1-2 pitch for a grand slam.

 

Against the Cardinals, Pujols the league MVP had four RBIs against him in the first game (His OPS was over 1.000 in the post season that year). In Game 6 Marcum gave up a two out, first pitch 3 run homer to David Freese who had an OPS over 1.000 in the playoffs that year with 15 extra base hits and 21 RBI.

 

Totally off topic I know, but it’s interesting how we remember these things. Marcum didn’t really let them down with poor pitching. He made a mistake on a pitch at the wrong time against Goldschmidt, and ran into two white hot hitters on the Cardinals so his pitching line looks terrible

 

He let them down with poor pitching, so be it. Was it against good/great teams? Sure. No one in the state was confident pitching him in game 6 but RR, just like no one wanted to see Suppan in Game 4 in 2008. We could have went with Narveson/bullpen in Game 5 at St. Louis and have Greinke/Yo at home where each had so much success.

[rickh150]

It doesn't matter what Marcum was in 2011. What matters is how pitchers are being used in 2021, and nobody is going to be tossed out there in early April for 8 innings or 110 pitches or whatever.

 

The NL is averaging 5.2 IP per start, and 83 pitches per start by a starting pitcher.

 

The AL is averaging 4.9 IP per start, and 83 pitches per start.

 

There are STILL people who say (maybe not here, but you know the type) "we need to get a guy who consistently goes out and gets 7 or 8 innings every time out!"

 

That literally doesn't even exist anymore. Pulling Burnes or Woodruff at 77 or 83 pitches is the way the game is managed now. People can disagree with it, but that's the way the game is played.

 

It is April. It is after a very odd 2020 with very few pitches thrown, comparatively. No problem easing them into the season.

I am more at odds with not pitching Williams and Hader, though. Off day Thursday on top of it. Letting Suter throw to the heart of the order with Williams and Hader sitting in the bullpen... yeah, that in addition of leaving Lindrom in forever a few nights ago shows me that they are being ultra conservative with the bullpen arms.

[adambr2]

To clarify, I was more or less just rambling as I am prone to do, about Marcum and how he's different from the guys we have now. Didn't mean to specifically relate it to usage questions.