Craig Counsell

[djoctagone]

All will be mute if we don't start to hit.

it made me laugh that your username sounded like "moot sports fan" in my head.

[brewcrewdue80]

Coming into the season I thought Counsel would be a big advantage because outside the box strategies might be important in another weird year. He seems like he's at the point now where he makes the same decisions pretty much every manager would. I don't see a lot of outside the box stuff anymore. Maybe using Suter in games they're down a run instead of having him for a 7th inning lead? Idk, he seems stale, I hope he gets back to thinking outside the box.

 

This sums up pretty well what I'm trying to get across from my comment.

It's more predictable because it's not outside the box strategy as in 2018 or 2019.

[adambr2]

Yeah, I really don't understand Counsell's evolution as a manager. It seems like he started out as an innovator and as time has gone he'd kind of went backwards to a traditional manager.

 

Innovation worked great for us in 2018. I can almost hear him saying "Devin is my 8th inning guy", and I just don't get it. He wasn't this guy a couple years ago.

[Pugger]

CC has a really tough job. He has so little room for error because it is far from an offense first team. The team doesn’t put up the runs to hide manager decisions that don’t work out.

 

I don’t think he is that bad. Maybe not a brilliant manger, but I don’t think that really exists. Either you have the offense to cover your mistakes or your team is so good they make you brilliant regardless of what you do.

 

I'd agree with this, CC is solid but unspectacular. And he's not in a situation like Dave Roberts to look like a genius no matter who starts, as his 26th man probably starts on 2/3 of mlb rosters and his 3rd best reliever would close for 2/3 of teams.

Just remember, before CC we had Yost, Macha, Runnin Ron, and Sveum. CC is head and shoulders better than any of them at his job in my opinion. And Yost went on to get carried to a WS title by probably one of the best bullpens of all time. A trash team can make a great manager look terrible, and a WS caliber team can make Yost look like a genius.

 

This.

[Pugger]

If we were scoring runs with our starting pitching this thread wouldn't be necessary. It is hard to win games when you can't score.

[RobDeer 45]

Wanted to let the dust settle a little in here before posting. I'm a huge Craig Counsell fan and supporter. I know there are going to be times when we get frustrated with our manager. I also think the manager gets way too much of the blame when things are going poorly. If he makes a move and it goes wrong, it's his fault, not the player's. We love to second guess, I get all that. I just want to say that we should be a little more understanding of the situation. I don't think anyone is really calling for him to be fired or anything like that, but it just seems a little harsh. Craig is prefect for this team and for the way Stearns likes to build things. He's creative and flexible and does a good job of rotating player's in and out and in different positions. I know some of you are looking for him to do wild groundbreaking stuff all the time, but that's not always the move. I hope Counsell is here for the long run and I hope most fans see that there probably aren't too many managers out there that would ever be as good of a fit for Milwaukee as he is.

 

As for the people complaining about pitch counts on our two franchise pitchers. I'd rather lose a game and be cautious with them any day. How many teams coming in to this season are talking about 6 man rotations and pulling pitchers early to protect them, coming off a shortened season? All spring training, teams have been talking about easing people in and having pitchers throw fewer innings. And we are going to get mad about pulling a guy an inning early in their 2nd start of the year? The season and their careers are way more important than that game.

[Underachiever]

Okay, then let me know when the important games are so I can buy tickets to those.

[clancyphile]

Yeah, I really don't understand Counsell's evolution as a manager. It seems like he started out as an innovator and as time has gone he'd kind of went backwards to a traditional manager.

 

Innovation worked great for us in 2018. I can almost hear him saying "Devin is my 8th inning guy", and I just don't get it. He wasn't this guy a couple years ago.

 

In 2018, the Crew had to innovate because of massive slumps/underperformance by Arcia and Villar. Schoop wasn't working out after he was acquired. Travis Shaw at second was a bit of a desperation move.

 

Ideally, you have guys who can hold roles down over a 162-game season. Now, the exact roles are up for definition. Hader is far more valuable as a guy you turn to to get to your 9th inning guy for anywhere from four to eight outs. Ideally, out of an eight-man pen, you have two or three guys who can do that.

[SeaBass]

Wanted to let the dust settle a little in here before posting. I'm a huge Craig Counsell fan and supporter. I know there are going to be times when we get frustrated with our manager. I also think the manager gets way too much of the blame when things are going poorly. If he makes a move and it goes wrong, it's his fault, not the player's. We love to second guess, I get all that. I just want to say that we should be a little more understanding of the situation. I don't think anyone is really calling for him to be fired or anything like that, but it just seems a little harsh. Craig is prefect for this team and for the way Stearns likes to build things. He's creative and flexible and does a good job of rotating player's in and out and in different positions. I know some of you are looking for him to do wild groundbreaking stuff all the time, but that's not always the move. I hope Counsell is here for the long run and I hope most fans see that there probably aren't too many managers out there that would ever be as good of a fit for Milwaukee as he is.

 

As for the people complaining about pitch counts on our two franchise pitchers. I'd rather lose a game and be cautious with them any day. How many teams coming in to this season are talking about 6 man rotations and pulling pitchers early to protect them, coming off a shortened season? All spring training, teams have been talking about easing people in and having pitchers throw fewer innings. And we are going to get mad about pulling a guy an inning early in their 2nd start of the year? The season and their careers are way more important than that game.

He's also managing human beings, not a conglomeration of statistics on a page. He has to look these guys in the eye every day, form relationships with them.

 

Cherry picking one line of criticism, the argument for using Hader the way he was used early on in his Brewers career makes a lot of sense on the surface but once he's established himself as an All-Star there's every reason not to operate in such a way that obstinately goes against how a player wishes or expects to be used. I think Josh Hader wants to be used as a traditional closer because that's how he will maximize his market value once he becomes a free agent and even through the arbitration process leading to free agency. The team can make that concession because his usage in that role is still extremely valuable even if they might prefer to use him in a slightly different way.

 

The league persists in the use of the traditional closer so that's where we are. I don't think it's a flaw of Craig Counsell that he's using Hader in that role.

[pacopete4]

I have been on Counsell for not using Hader as he did in the 2018 season too but the more I thought about it, the more factors I could come up with as to why they might not be. The biggest one for me is that you see these multiple inning guys burn out much faster it seems (see Miller - STL). It just never seems to end well.

[StearnsFTW]

This thread is going to look silly in October.

[RobDeer 45]

SeaBass - Great way of putting it. These are humans, not just stats. When you mix in the human side of things, it's not as cut and dry. I also think that we get so frustrated by certain situations that happen in one game, and we have to remember he's managing these guys for the whole season and for their careers.

 

Underachiever - I can tell you don't like my way of thinking on this situation. Can you elaborate more? You would rather take on some more risk to win an early game vs the potential of injury long term? I think that's what they are trying to manage early in the season.

[Thurston Fluff]

Okay, then let me know when the important games are so I can buy tickets to those.

 

The ones that have healthy pitchers. The ones where the pitcher's arm is falling off from overuse are probably a lost cause anyway.

[pacopete4]

This thread is going to look silly in October.

 

Among many other threads and posts.

[Sixtofan]

You mean it doesn’t look somewhat silly now?

[StearnsFTW]

Well, yeah, it does.

 

I should've said REALLY silly haha.

[Warning Track Power]

This thread is going to look silly in October.

I don't think it will look particularly silly. My original post (OP) in the thread clearly indicates Counsell is a solid manager and I don't want any other person managing the team. I think a majority of the posts have indicated the same thing. That does not absolve him from being critiqued. The critique I referenced in the OP really indicates that Counsell has fallen more into a traditional manager (Williams 8th, Hader 9th inning guys) than the innovator he was at the beginning of his tenure and a lack of answers for a stagnant offense. Sure some of it can be chalked up to rule changes like the 3 batter minimum, but 3 hot games of hitting does not cure all ails.

 

Now, if the Crew continues to hit the way it has over the past 3 games (which I hope it does), I will gladly eat crow related to Counsell, Haines and Cruz. Similar to the crow most of us have eaten in the past two years regarding Chris Hook. Keep in mind, no one was advocating for Counsell to be fired, only that he shoulder some of the blame related to the Brewers not hitting. Let's see Hiura, JBJ, Urias, and Cain get their averages above the Mendoza line before we declare the Brewers hitting issues have been solved.

 

I would still like for Counsell to be more the innovator he was in 2017-2019 timeframe, but I understand the changing of the rules of the game may limit that innovation a bit.

[Sixtofan]

That is a very well reasoned response. I went back and re-read the original post - I don’t disagree with your premise. I do disagree with the sentiment advocated by some others that we potentially sacrifice the future by taking risks with starting pitcher arms this early in the season. I will admit my focus got pulled away from your original topic.

[Underachiever]

SeaBass - Great way of putting it. These are humans, not just stats. When you mix in the human side of things, it's not as cut and dry. I also think that we get so frustrated by certain situations that happen in one game, and we have to remember he's managing these guys for the whole season and for their careers.

 

Underachiever - I can tell you don't like my way of thinking on this situation. Can you elaborate more? You would rather take on some more risk to win an early game vs the potential of injury long term? I think that's what they are trying to manage early in the season.

 

I have no problem with your way of thinking. Caution is fine. The suggestion that losing an early game can be a benefit later is worth debating. But the way you frame the argument? My choices are: 1."risk" to win early and 2. long-term injury? Well, then I didn't understand the choices and you are correct. You frame it in such a way (risk to win?) that it is not worth discussing. Same with the poster who suggested another option was pitchers' arms falling off from overuse. I think there is room for more nuance here. If Woodruff or Burnes came out to start the next inning, perhaps their arms would have fallen off. But they also may have been okay. And then they may have batted in the next inning and trashed their shoulder diving back into first base. We will never know.

[RobDeer 45]

SeaBass - Great way of putting it. These are humans, not just stats. When you mix in the human side of things, it's not as cut and dry. I also think that we get so frustrated by certain situations that happen in one game, and we have to remember he's managing these guys for the whole season and for their careers.

 

Underachiever - I can tell you don't like my way of thinking on this situation. Can you elaborate more? You would rather take on some more risk to win an early game vs the potential of injury long term? I think that's what they are trying to manage early in the season.

 

I have no problem with your way of thinking. Caution is fine. The suggestion that losing an early game can be a benefit later is worth debating. But the way you frame the argument? My choices are: 1."risk" to win early and 2. long-term injury? Well, then I didn't understand the choices and you are correct. You frame it in such a way (risk to win?) that it is not worth discussing. Same with the poster who suggested another option was pitchers' arms falling off from overuse. I think there is room for more nuance here. If Woodruff or Burnes came out to start the next inning, perhaps their arms would have fallen off. But they also may have been okay. And then they may have batted in the next inning and trashed their shoulder diving back into first base. We will never know.

 

I can see where you are coming from. Thanks for elaborating. You right, there are multiple outcomes for each decision. Also I see your point on losing a game here and there can add up and be the difference in making the playoffs at the end of the year. Also remember, just because CC makes a decision and it goes wrong, it doesn't make the other option automatically right. Woody could have given up a couple runs that next inning too. We never know. I guess that's the beauty of baseball and sports.

 

I think when I read through the posts I started to feel like people were getting angrier than they actually were, with CC. Got defensive, again, because I think he's a great long term fit here. I didn't want to see the frustration with him snowball.

 

I randomly thought of this after reading the last few posts. How much do you think managers factor in positive mental outcomes in their decisions. Hey Woody has been pitching great to start the season, let's take him out on a high note here, and preserve his arm a bit. Win win. Then we can lean on him more down the road and hopefully he's more confident in himself. I guess it can work both ways though, less confidence to go deeper in to games and get out of jams on their own.

[pacopete4]

Debating pitch counts doesn't end anywhere realistic though. All managers: pro, college, high school, etc... have pitch limits for guys and are now going by that to determine decisions. Getting after CC for it is just, well, foolish. They are being careful and building arms up. And no, throwing before the season, while good, doesn't build your arm up for game situations. I can understand that people don't like pitch counts but I don't know a single program that doesn't have these restraints now. It just the way the game is played.

[MrTPlush]

Anyone wanting to ride these arms to 8 innings/100+ pitches in April after the short 2020 season must have really liked 2011 Shaun Marcum in September/October, because that is how these guys are going to perform if you treat them like that.

[adambr2]

Marcum was no horse though. He was always a guy with very limited talents who got the most of what he had. Kind of like a Zach Davies. I don't think the analytics these days would have loved the trade that we made for him.

[MrTPlush]

Marcum was no horse though. He was always a guy with very limited talents who got the most of what he had. Kind of like a Zach Davies. I don't think the analytics these days would have loved the trade that we made for him.

 

I don't think I would really classify anyone on this team as a workhorse, outside of maybe Woodruff. He probably is the only guy that could chuck 115 pitches full steam ahead. I wouldn't expect anyone on this team to be a 200 inning workhorse this season though. None of them are used to it.

 

The season is a marathon, not a sprint. To get mad someone didn't get an 8th inning or only threw 85 pitches is ignoring the fact these guys have to be babied or they won't make it 162 games without a bunch of injuries or getting burnt out.

[stoutdude04]

Pulling Burnes at 86 pitches during his second start of the season is understandable but I would have given him until 100 pitches.

 

Just cycling back to this, and maybe someone mentioned it and I missed it.

 

After reading the Burnes article(which was fun), I read another article about him. Burnes said when he went back out for the 6th he couldn't really get his legs underneath him. I am sure this was partially why he got pulled so early.