White Sox Corner OF

[Jopal78]

A couple of absolutes: 1. The Brewers hardly ever include cash in trades. 2. The Brewers are not going to give Garcia away. This

 

Accordingly, my point is the White Sox GM is not going to give a player from their organization and take on 12 million dollars in payroll for Garcia when players like Bruce are available for a minimal salary. The difference between Garcia and a player like Bruce doesn’t warrant such a cost.

 

Though the Brewers haven't included cash in trades, they've been content to pay players to stay home. The line between the two is virtually non-existent, IMO. Perhaps that's a function of not having players with terrible that other teams were even willing to take on by the point the Brewers were willing to move them (Suppan, Lohse, Garza, etc)?

 

You may be right about eating the remainder of a contract. But they don’t do that much either. In fact no money was eaten with Garza or Lohse as they were never released. They last pitched for Milwaukee on Sept. 27 and October 1st respectively in the final years of their deals. Suppan was released in June of the final year of his contract eating maybe 6 million dollars. That only occurred when Suppan became completely worthless allowing almost an earned run per inning. Garcia by contrast is far from worthless

[PeaveyFury]

Ok, Randy Wolf and his 49 MPH curveball, then. Point is, the Brewers have rarely had a contract where A)they desperately wanted to get out of it, AND B)there was value in that player at a lesser dollar amount, so I'm not sure you can assume or read anything from their past actions. Yeah, they don't include cash in trades. But they also really haven't traded off a bad contract before.

[Jopal78]

Ok, Randy Wolf and his 49 MPH curveball, then. Point is, the Brewers have rarely had a contract where A)they desperately wanted to get out of it, AND B)there was value in that player at a lesser dollar amount, so I'm not sure you can assume or read anything from their past actions. Yeah, they don't include cash in trades. But they also really haven't traded off a bad contract before.

 

In fact, Randy Wolf was released at the end of August in 2012 after making 25 starts for the Brewers. He had maybe 15% of his annual salary remaining when let go. I will rephrase though: The Brewers do not have a history of paying players while they play for different clubs.

 

Even if they wanted to move Garcia’s contract, he’s the textbook definition of a mediocre outfielder (not really bad at anything, but not outstanding at anything either) on an expiring contract. The return would never be such that it would warrant picking up his contract. As posted earlier the difference between Garcia and other readily available outfielders is such no GM is going to give up players to acquire him right now.

[JosephC]

Looking at the White Sox roster, and I feel they absolutely need to make a move for another outfielder.

 

I don't think Garcia makes sense at all. On average, FGDC, Steamer, ZiPS are projecting him as a 400 plate appearances/0.4 WAR player in 2021. Increase the plate appearances to an everyday player that doesn't get injured, and I'm guessing pretty much all MLB teams would put a surplus value on him of about -7 million. Brewers pick up the buyout for 2022 and Garcia still has -5 million in surplus value.

 

Reasonable expectation in a Garcia deal would be the Brewers send Garcia and a significant amount of money (>3 million, could take up to 7 million) and all they would probably get back is one non-top 30 lottery ticket type prospect. If the cash is less than what I suggest then cross off the lottery ticket type prospect and downgrade it to an organizational filler type (in terms of the Brewer's system, someone like Bubba Derby).

 

So for the folks above that suggested the Brewers are just better keeping Garcia for depth and an insurance policy, I agree with those people 100%.

 

I have Cain with a -7.1 million in surplus value. And does Reinsdorf really want to add Cain's salary? Very doubtful IMO. I think the Brewers probably need to add at least 10 million dollars to make the trade happen and still get nothing back for the return. 2021 budget is pretty much done. Cain gets 18 million in 2022 but if the Brewers eat 10 million of that, is the additional 8 million of available money worth losing 2 seasons of Cain's performance? Time will tell on that.

[KeithStone53151]

For starters, I think that valuation is probably at least a little low. More importantly, they don't really have great options to cost effectively add WAR at that position. Someone brought up Bruce, maybe they pay him 2 million bucks to put up -0.5 WAR over 400 PA. That's not really the type of thing a contending team should do. It's possible at cut downs that someone releases a better option that they can bring in at 1-2 million bucks that can be replacement value, or maybe it's more worthwhile to trade for an established big leaguer that can actually help you win games.

[Eye Black]

FWIW, the Yankees are planning to add Jay Bruce to their roster.

 

Looks like he’ll primarily take the place of Luke Voit at first base for now. Voit has a partial meniscus tear and will have surgery.

[PeaveyFury]

I will rephrase though: The Brewers do not have a history of paying players while they play for different clubs.

 

I think that's a better way to put it. But, if I'm understanding your view correctly, you seem to be implying (and I could be wrong) that they're doing this by choice. My point is that it's impossible to know whether it's a choice not to, or that they've never really had a contract they want to get out of where the player is still valuable to some team. Most of their albatross contracts have been to players that are toast by the time the contract is actually viewed as an albatross.

[DR28]

Sounds like Moncada is moving to LF, Sox signed Jake Lamb yesterday to play 3B.

[brewcrewrule28]

I wonder if the Brewers would match up as a trade partner here. Garcia or JBJ would be vets without commitments past this year. Possibly Taylor too but the Brewers might find him more valuable as a cheap 4th/5th OF with options.

[TURBO]

Robert lost for 12-16 weeks...

 

Maybe revisit a trade with the Sox and dump one of Garcia or JBJ?

 

Why they would want either of them is beyond me though.

[adambr2]

Bradley and Avi have no trade value whatsoever. If you're lucky enough to get the Sox to take either, it's purely a salary dump.

 

However if it opens up the door for playing time for Taylor and frees up some cash to take on some salary elsewhere at the deadline, its not the worst idea.

[roadcrew3]

If the White Sox came calling I can't imagine them asking for anybody but Taylor.

 

I also think he holds much more value for the Brewers than he does for a larger market club. He is cheap, has shown potential, has options left, Brewers have outfield openings as soon as next season, and his contract status keeps him with the team through his prime. I see no reason why the Brewers would move him unless they were taking back a significant package of controllable players, which I am not sure why another club like the White Sox would be willing to pay.

[adambr2]

If the White Sox came calling I can't imagine them asking for anybody but Taylor.

 

I also think he holds much more value for the Brewers than he does for a larger market club. He is cheap, has shown potential, has options left, Brewers have outfield openings as soon as next season, and his contract status keeps him with the team through his prime. I see no reason why the Brewers would move him unless they were taking back a significant package of controllable players, which I am not sure why another club like the White Sox would be willing to pay.

 

I don't think Taylor has much trade value. His MLB track record is just too short and his MiLB track record is just too spotty to have recovered much of his former value as a top prospect.

 

I agree it doesn't make much sense for the Brewers to move him right now with potential openings in the OF next year and some possible upside in Taylor.

[Roderick]

I'd love to be out from under the JBJ contract, and spend that money nearer to trade deadline on a pickup.

 

I'd also trade Taylor, it just has to be the right price.

[Jopal78]

Bradley and Avi have no trade value whatsoever. If you're lucky enough to get the Sox to take either, it's purely a salary dump.

 

However if it opens up the door for playing time for Taylor and frees up some cash to take on some salary elsewhere at the deadline, its not the worst idea.

 

First of all, the Brewers aren't simply going to give either of those players away. It doesn't help them in the short run, and the thought of removing struggling but established veterans from the lineup and replacing them players who've performed better albeit in a small sample but remain unknown commodities is inconsistent with the patience given by this front office (Shaw in '19, Hiura '20-'21, Smoak et al.), and making their roster less talented is inconsistent with where they want to be as a team (competing for the playoffs in 2021).

 

Secondly, both those players are scuffling and making decent money their value in a trade is zero. No GM is going to take on 10+ million in salary for one of those players (not to mention give something in return) when a journeyman like Brian Goodwin (career .250/.317/.455) was just released and is freely available. In fact, the White Sox already have journeyman Billy Hamilton in their organization.

 

Freeing up cash for a "potential" deadline deal isn't a reason to trade a player in May. Not only is it more probably true than not that additional room for acquisitions is already built in, but its doubtful after just 30 games any GM would be that brash to start "freeing up cash".

 

As for Taylor he's no doubt been hot in limited at bats in the majors. However, his minor league numbers suggest its a matter of time until advanced scouting and video catch up with him. Taylor is not comparable to a Trent Grisham situation where the light goes on one year, he destroys the pitching in the minor leagues and forces his way on to the major league roster. Taylor has always been the same player, average numbers for a CFer but his bat has been too weak across 3400 minor league at bats, to ever profile as an every day corner outfielder in the majors.

[adambr2]

Avi isn't even really as established veteran. He had one great year in '17 and other than that is a pretty meh player and has little upside. The deal we gave him is frankly kind of a head scratcher in hindsight.

 

He's also not really an "after 30 games" situation, he wasn't good last year and with JBJ here they've got a bit of a logjam at the position. I agree they wouldn't get someone to take on the entirety of his contract and wasn't implying otherwise, but if someone wanted to take on a significant part to acquire him this year with our other available options I don't really see the downside. Losing Avi from this lineup doesn't have much impact on the big picture.

[roadcrew3]

Bradley and Avi have no trade value whatsoever. If you're lucky enough to get the Sox to take either, it's purely a salary dump.

 

However if it opens up the door for playing time for Taylor and frees up some cash to take on some salary elsewhere at the deadline, its not the worst idea.

 

First of all, the Brewers aren't simply going to give either of those players away. It doesn't help them in the short run, and the thought of removing struggling but established veterans from the lineup and replacing them players who've performed better albeit in a small sample but remain unknown commodities is inconsistent with the patience given by this front office (Shaw in '19, Hiura '20-'21, Smoak et al.), and making their roster less talented is inconsistent with where they want to be as a team (competing for the playoffs in 2021).

 

Secondly, both those players are scuffling and making decent money their value in a trade is zero. No GM is going to take on 10+ million in salary for one of those players (not to mention give something in return) when a journeyman like Brian Goodwin (career .250/.317/.455) was just released and is freely available. In fact, the White Sox already have journeyman Billy Hamilton in their organization.

 

Freeing up cash for a "potential" deadline deal isn't a reason to trade a player in May. Not only is it more probably true than not that additional room for acquisitions is already built in, but its doubtful after just 30 games any GM would be that brash to start "freeing up cash".

 

As for Taylor he's no doubt been hot in limited at bats in the majors. However, his minor league numbers suggest its a matter of time until advanced scouting and video catch up with him. Taylor is not comparable to a Trent Grisham situation where the light goes on one year, he destroys the pitching in the minor leagues and forces his way on to the major league roster. Taylor has always been the same player, average numbers for a CFer but his bat has been too weak across 3400 minor league at bats, to ever profile as an every day corner outfielder in the majors.

 

This seems like your being pretty selective saying the situations aren't comparable. Both were highly touted prospects who underperformed their rankings before it started to click. The only difference is Grisham has had the opportunity to prove his play wasn't just a hot streak while Taylor hasn't yet. All reports were Taylor played well last season, had a strong spring, and now played well in his first stint with the team this year. I'm not at all saying he will be as good as Grisham, but Taylors current situation is becoming pretty comparable to Grisham a few years ago. Having a minor league season this year should shed a lot more light on his potential with the big league club.

[Outlander]

It isn't really comparable, Grisham started to turn the corner when he was around 22 and still isn't in his prime. It is much more common to see a 27 year old have some success in their prime but not be able to sustain it.

[Jopal78]

 

This seems like your being pretty selective saying the situations aren't comparable. Both were highly touted prospects who underperformed their rankings before it started to click. The only difference is Grisham has had the opportunity to prove his play wasn't just a hot streak while Taylor hasn't yet. All reports were Taylor played well last season, had a strong spring, and now played well in his first stint with the team this year. I'm not at all saying he will be as good as Grisham, but Taylors current situation is becoming pretty comparable to Grisham a few years ago. Having a minor league season this year should shed a lot more light on his potential with the big league club.

 

But they're really not at all. Trent Grisham was the 15th overall draft pick in 2015 out of high school. Whatever his struggles were initially in the minors, he forced his way onto the major league roster in 2019 about four years after he was drafted and in essence went right into the everyday lineup.

 

Taylor on the other hand was a 2nd round pick out of high school. He didn't get to the majors until 2019, 7 years after he was drafted and he was a September call up used almost exclusively to pinch hit, pinch run and play defense.

 

Think about it, they're both CFers. Taylor was in the organization 3 years before Grisham was even drafted. Despite Grisham's own struggles he still blew by Taylor in the organization.

 

Again who knows what will happen in the future, but the notion of finding a diamond in the rough with Taylor isn't something that I'm buying into right now given his history as a pro.

[Jopal78]

Avi isn't even really as established veteran. He had one great year in '17 and other than that is a pretty meh player and has little upside. The deal we gave him is frankly kind of a head scratcher in hindsight.

 

He's also not really an "after 30 games" situation, he wasn't good last year and with JBJ here they've got a bit of a logjam at the position. I agree they wouldn't get someone to take on the entirety of his contract and wasn't implying otherwise, but if someone wanted to take on a significant part to acquire him this year with our other available options I don't really see the downside. Losing Avi from this lineup doesn't have much impact on the big picture.

 

Established veteran meaning Avi Garcia has been a major league regular for a long time. He's not yet 30 and has 842 games played in the major leagues.

 

His numbers are pretty average maybe even a bit underwhelming when power numbers across baseball have never been higher, then again his numbers are why he's playing on a two year/24 million dollar contract with the Brewers in the first place. If he was 29 with 840 games in the majors yet had a slash line of .285/.355/.485 he'd be in the middle of a multi-year deal paying him 17-18 million dollars per year.

 

(As an aside he is the Brewers team leader so far in 2021 in the old Bill James Power/Speed Number and was 5th last year. Perhaps providing explanation why the team signed him up in the first place).

 

Anyways, I agree with you losing him doesn't have much impact on the big picture, however the Brewers simply don't pay cash to other teams to take their players, and I wouldn't expect them to begin to do so with Garcia. They're more likely to give him time to get going at the plate.

[adambr2]

Avi isn't even really as established veteran. He had one great year in '17 and other than that is a pretty meh player and has little upside. The deal we gave him is frankly kind of a head scratcher in hindsight.

 

He's also not really an "after 30 games" situation, he wasn't good last year and with JBJ here they've got a bit of a logjam at the position. I agree they wouldn't get someone to take on the entirety of his contract and wasn't implying otherwise, but if someone wanted to take on a significant part to acquire him this year with our other available options I don't really see the downside. Losing Avi from this lineup doesn't have much impact on the big picture.

 

Established veteran meaning Avi Garcia has been a major league regular for a long time. He's not yet 30 and has 842 games played in the major leagues.

 

His numbers are pretty average maybe even a bit underwhelming when power numbers across baseball have never been higher, then again his numbers are why he's playing on a two year/24 million dollar contract with the Brewers in the first place. If he was 29 with 840 games in the majors yet had a slash line of .285/.355/.485 he'd be in the middle of a multi-year deal paying him 17-18 million dollars per year.

 

(As an aside he is the Brewers team leader so far in 2021 in the old Bill James Power/Speed Number and was 5th last year. Perhaps providing explanation why the team signed him up in the first place).

 

Anyways, I agree with you losing him doesn't have much impact on the big picture, however the Brewers simply don't pay cash to other teams to take their players, and I wouldn't expect them to begin to do so with Garcia. They're more likely to give him time to get going at the plate.

 

They gave the Rangers 4M to trade Gallardo to them. I would argue that they haven't paid cash to too many teams to take their players because they haven't had too many situations where it came into play, not necessarily that they don't do it as a matter of organizational philosophy.

[Jopal78]

 

They gave the Rangers 4M to trade Gallardo to them. I would argue that they haven't paid cash to too many teams to take their players because they haven't had too many situations where it came into play, not necessarily that they don't do it as a matter of organizational philosophy.

 

To your point, there's no reason to include cash to trade Garcia. No team is going to give anything of value for Garcia ( an under-performing impending free agent), nor has there been any indication the Brewers are so desperate to get out from under Garcia's contract that they will pay another team to have him play against them.

[KCBrewerfan34]

I would dump Garcia in a minute and go with Taylor/McKinney. Let’s hope the White Sox are desperate.

[monty57]

In a year in which the Brewers have been besieged with injuries, I'm surprised that so many people would give up one of our regulars for nothing, even if the player in question isn't performing that well.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

McKinney OPS = .671 in 87 PA. Garcia OPS = .762 in 123 PA.

 

I'll take Garcia over McKinney any day. Now that McKinney is back down to his career normals, hopefully we stop penciling him into the lineup. It was a great ride while is lasted, but he should not be starting over anyone other than Vogelbach. We need to find a 1b... Maybe we can call up Green and give him a shot.