26 Man Roster Discussion

[djoctagone]

Assuming he doesn't make the OD roster (or the active roster after DL time), couldn't they just outright Nottingham to AAA? I don't recall that happening before & for most guys like him, it can happen once (and only once).

a player can be given an outright assignment more than once. it's just after the first outright assignment, that the player has the right to refuse the minor league assignment and become a free agent. nottingham has never been outrighted before, so it remains a possibility (if he were to clear outright waivers).

Cant [sic] a team claim him but then still stuff him in their AAA even though he doesn't have an option? It was something I think happened not long ago that I feel shouldn't

happen. The claiming team imo should be forced to place him on 26man or return back to Brewers in this instance.

when you claim a player off waivers, you have to add him to your 40-man roster. if he's out of options, he has to be added to your active roster.

 

remember rob scahill? in 2017, he accepted an outright assignment by the brewers three times--which also means he cleared outright waivers three times that year. the first time he was outrighted, he had no choice but to accept the minor league assignment. the other two times, he could've refused the assignment and declared free agency, but he didn't.

 

scahill's contract was selected by the brewers after the first outright assignment, and then again after the second outright assignment. but after the third outright assignment in 2017, he spent the rest of the season with class aaa colorado springs.

[wntrtxn21]

Assuming he doesn't make the OD roster (or the active roster after DL time), couldn't they just outright Nottingham to AAA? I don't recall that happening before & for most guys like him, it can happen once (and only once).

 

Fisher, Wahl, & Black seemed destined for the DL.

Urias seems destined for AAA. The guy needs to get healthy & get his game back, and AAA seems like the right solution on all counts in the short term.

 

Boxberger's been about as effective as a RH Alex Claudio, if that. I don't want him to make the team over some others. I'd greatly prefer Zimmermann if only because he's got a much higher ceiling -- though between time & the injuries he's dealt with over the past few years, it's a major unknown if he's capable anymore of re-attaining what his Nationals performance level was.

 

So that puts my current hunch at:

 

C: Pina, Narvaez

IF: Hiura, Wong, Arcia, Shaw, Robertson, Vogelbach

OF: Yelich, Cain, Bradley, Garcia, McKinney

 

SP: Woodruff, Burnes, Houser, Anderson, Lindblom

RP: Hader, Williams, Peralta, Suter, Yardley, Rasmussen, Topa, Zimmermann

 

Which leaves Feyereisen on the outside looking in, but if Zimmermann fails or someone else gets hurt, he's an easy first callup.

Zimmermann obvious requires someone else's 40-man spot. The 60-day IL or an outright (Nottingham?) opens that spot.

 

I'm trying to see where that much higher ceiling is for Zimmermann. IMO Feyerisen has a much higher ceiling than a washed-up 35 year old who has absolutely stunk the last 5 years. Give the younger guys a shot and let Zimmermann retire or just DFA him.

[djoctagone]

let Zimmermann retire or just DFA him.

only players on a major league contract can be dfa'd. zimmermann is on a minor league contract.

[MNBrew]

...I'd greatly prefer Zimmermann if only because he's got a much higher ceiling -- though between time & the injuries he's dealt with over the past few years, it's a major unknown if he's capable anymore of re-attaining what his Nationals performance level was.

 

I'm trying to see where that much higher ceiling is for Zimmermann. IMO Feyerisen has a much higher ceiling than a washed-up 35 year old who has absolutely stunk the last 5 years. Give the younger guys a shot and let Zimmermann retire or just DFA him.

My point was that Zimmermann has hit heights that Feyereisen can only dream of. The problem, as I noted (albeit perhaps with unclear wording), is that his "ceiling" may be fully behind him. But there's something about pedigree that may mean something (which means it also may mean nothing anymore, which seems to be your focus).

 

If they were to keep him at the start of the season, he'd have to deliver reasonably well to keep his spot. Stearns' history would indicate he likes to start out with good depth. To that point, for as much as it was driving many here batty before the Wong & Bradley signings, the sheer volume of minor signings (40-man or MiLB/NRI) has proved fortuitous since Lopes, Mathias, & Fisher are all out with injuries.

[Jopal78]

I don’t think Zimmermann would stay in Appleton if he doesn’t make the roster. He would try to catch on elsewhere or simply retire

[JohnBriggs12]

...I'd greatly prefer Zimmermann if only because he's got a much higher ceiling -- though between time & the injuries he's dealt with over the past few years, it's a major unknown if he's capable anymore of re-attaining what his Nationals performance level was.

 

I'm trying to see where that much higher ceiling is for Zimmermann. IMO Feyerisen has a much higher ceiling than a washed-up 35 year old who has absolutely stunk the last 5 years. Give the younger guys a shot and let Zimmermann retire or just DFA him.

My point was that Zimmermann has hit heights that Feyereisen can only dream of. The problem, as I noted (albeit perhaps with unclear wording), is that his "ceiling" may be fully behind him. But there's something about pedigree that may mean something (which means it also may mean nothing anymore, which seems to be your focus).

 

If they were to keep him at the start of the season, he'd have to deliver reasonably well to keep his spot. Stearns' history would indicate he likes to start out with good depth. To that point, for as much as it was driving many here batty before the Wong & Bradley signings, the sheer volume of minor signings (40-man or MiLB/NRI) has proved fortuitous since Lopes, Mathias, & Fisher are all out with injuries.

 

The Brewers gave Zimmermann a spot to audition for 30 teams this spring. The chances the Brewers add him their roster have always been remote. Nothing has really changed.

[JohnBriggs12]

If the Brewers are going to add a player currently not on the 40 man which is not all that likely, it will be one of the lefty relievers, either Blaine Hardy or Hoby Milner. Milner's been very impressive in 6 outings and Hardy has a significant major league track record. Hardy is coming off TJ surgery so they may keep him at the alternate site to be sure he's healthy.

[brewerfan82]

McCalvy went full keep-as-many-players-in-the-organization-as-possible mode in his Opening Day roster prediction: https://www.mlb.com/brewers/news/brewers-2021-opening-day-roster-projection

 

Basically, he pulled off keeping both Vogelbach and McKinney (and Zimmermann and Boxberger), by optioning Rasmussen, Topa, and Feyereisen to begin the year. That actually feels like a very "David Stearns move" to do. Zimmermann and Boxberger can pickup as many mop up innings as possible to avoid overworking the remaining pen (Hader, Williams, Suter, Yardley, and Peralta/Lindblom/Houser) and then you can start bringing those arms back up once you've had some extra time to feel things out.

[djoctagone]

McCalvy went full keep-as-many-players-in-the-organization-as-possible mode in his Opening Day roster prediction: https://www.mlb.com/brewers/news/brewers-2021-opening-day-roster-projection

 

Basically, he pulled off keeping both Vogelbach and McKinney (and Zimmermann and Boxberger), by optioning Rasmussen, Topa, and Feyereisen to begin the year. That actually feels like a very "David Stearns move" to do. Zimmermann and Boxberger can pickup as many mop up innings as possible to avoid overworking the remaining pen (Hader, Williams, Suter, Yardley, and Peralta/Lindblom/Houser) and then you can start bringing those arms back up once you've had some extra time to feel things out.

yet, he failed to tell us how he envisioned opening up two roster spots for boxberger and zimmermann. and he implied that it's super easy to adjust the roster after day 1 (as mentioned previously in this thread, it's not).

[Outlander]

I actually don't think it is very Stearns like to keep a guy like Topa in the minors who is clearly much better than the competition. I will be shocked if Topa is optioned and he keeps both of those veterans who have shown nothing during the spring.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

I actually don't think it is very Stearns like to keep a guy like Topa in the minors who is clearly much better than the competition. I will be shocked if Topa is optioned and he keeps both of those veterans who have shown nothing during the spring.

Topa had a grand total of 7.2 IP last year. I agree he looked great but clearly small sample alert. This spring, he has a 8.31 ERA with a 2.0 WHIP in 4.1 IP. Again small sample alert, but can you truly say he "clearly much better than the competition". If its Zimmerman over Topa then Blah, I agree. But H. Milner or Blain Hardy would be acceptable alternatives. I think I would still prefer Topa but I'm not sure its all that clear cut.

[umphrey]

Topa feels like the good version of John Axford

[JohnBriggs12]

McCalvy went full keep-as-many-players-in-the-organization-as-possible mode in his Opening Day roster prediction: https://www.mlb.com/brewers/news/brewers-2021-opening-day-roster-projection

 

Basically, he pulled off keeping both Vogelbach and McKinney (and Zimmermann and Boxberger), by optioning Rasmussen, Topa, and Feyereisen to begin the year. That actually feels like a very "David Stearns move" to do. Zimmermann and Boxberger can pickup as many mop up innings as possible to avoid overworking the remaining pen (Hader, Williams, Suter, Yardley, and Peralta/Lindblom/Houser) and then you can start bringing those arms back up once you've had some extra time to feel things out.

yet, he failed to tell us how he envisioned opening up two roster spots for boxberger and zimmermann. and he implied that it's super easy to adjust the roster after day 1 (as mentioned previously in this thread, it's not).

 

So all the guys with options get optioned and they keep all the guys without? Sure they have a plethora of players particularly pitchers they can bring up, but it's not like they can swap out out guys at the end of the pen when that group is made up of veterans like Boxberger and Zimmermann. Is the strategy just to let those guys pitch themselves off the roster? Who have been the most dominant guys out of the pen this spring? It's all the guys who McCalvy has not making the opening day roster: Feyereisen, Bickford, Rasmussen. One of those guys or Topa has to make the roster right? I just don't see what Zimmermann offers them other than a guy they can throw out there when they are hopelessly behind. It's not like he can be part of the revolving back end of the staff. Maybe they want Rasmussen starting at AAA? That's one rational reason for him not making the roster.

 

While I understand it, the guy I feel bad for is Tyrone Taylor. He's toiled in the system for almost a decade, finally gets an opportunity in 2020 and shows he's a major leaguer, then comes to spring training this year, hits the ball all over the yard, fields flawlessly, and loses his roster spot to a guy another organization gave up on because he still has an option.

[djoctagone]

While I understand it, the guy I feel bad for is Tyrone Taylor. He's toiled in the system for almost a decade, finally gets an opportunity in 2020 and shows he's a major leaguer, then comes to spring training this year, hits the ball all over the yard, fields flawlessly, and loses his roster spot to a guy another organization gave up on because he still has an option.

provided taylor remains on optional assignment for more than 20 days in 2021, he will be in the same situation as derek fisher and billy mckinney are right now--out of options and likely guaranteed to make the roster.

[wildcat83]

My guess:

 

C - Narvaes, Pina

INF - Acria, Hiura, Shaw, Urias, Wong, Robertson, Voglebach

OF - Cain, Yelich, Bradley, Garcia, Taylor

 

P (12)

Woodruff, Burnes, Houser, Peralta, Anderson, Lindbloom

Hader, Williams, Rasmussen, Suter, Yardley, Topa

 

IL - Black and Wahl

 

With essentially 6 starter type arms and two "long" guys in Rasmussen and Suter you don't need 13 pitchers the first week. Feyereisen has thrown really well, but he will start down, but still probably get plenty of time this year. Could do the same thing with Taylor in order to keep McKinney and it wouldn't surprise me. Just feel like Taylor has done enough to earn a spot.

[Hopper]

It's really too bad that Tyrone Taylor is stuck in an organization that just doesn't appreciate his talents.

He's 27, and looks like he won't have a permanent spot on the roster again this year.

He has done all that he can to earn a spot, and yet, he is probably going to be the odd man out.

Instead, we will keep an old man who is past his prime, body failing, just because we owe him another 30 million on what everyone knew was going to be a bad contract in years 3-5. Luckily we got out of paying him in year 3.

If we aren't going to use Taylor, trade him, give the guy a chance on another team that will use him.

It's a shame really.

[SeaBass]

It's really too bad that Tyrone Taylor is stuck in an organization that just doesn't appreciate his talents.

He's 27, and looks like he won't have a permanent spot on the roster again this year.

He has done all that he can to earn a spot, and yet, he is probably going to be the odd man out.

Instead, we will keep an old man who is past his prime, body failing, just because we owe him another 30 million on what everyone knew was going to be a bad contract in years 3-5. Luckily we got out of paying him in year 3.

If we aren't going to use Taylor, trade him, give the guy a chance on another team that will use him.

It's a shame really.

Are you Cain's doctor? Because I have no idea where you get off stating as fact his body is failing. It's laughable. Maybe let's wait to watch the guy play before shopping around for homes where he can be placed with assisted living.

 

Meanwhile, they have Garcia, they signed JBJ, Derek Fisher might just have had a roster spot locked up but got hurt and Billy McKinney is still in the mix. Not to mention David Robinson Daniel Robertson as an emergency guy.

 

Cain isn't the guy holding Taylor back. Taylor isn't going to break camp on the 26 man because he's not top six on the depth chart and Stearns made a point to bring in several other guys because he wanted better options.

 

The number 1 reason is that they most likely want him to keep getting consistent at bats and being the 5th OF in Milwaukee he'd get very sporadic playing time.

[pacopete4]

I'm confused here. We are not made at the Brewers organization for having too many good players at a position?

[SoCalBrewfan]

I tend to agree with what Briggs and others are saying about Taylor and the younger relievers as opposed to the likes of Zimmermann. However, I keep reminding myself of what I believe to be the team's philosophy: the opening day roster is just one snapshot, and it is expected to be different from the roster for the first playoff game. They really view this as a team that goes 30+ deep and fully expect to use most of the guys that we think of as being on the bubble over the course of a long season.

 

As much as my head tells me that, it still kind of annoys me to see some of how that plays out every year...

 

Also, I don't know whether it was linked here (I didn't see it, but my danged job keeps getting in the way of reading the internet...), but MLB trade rumors had a post that suggested that the chances of Urias starting in AAA/whatever are higher than I had previously guessed:

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/03/brewers-notes-infield-mckinney-lauer-cain-williams.html

[Hopper]

It's really too bad that Tyrone Taylor is stuck in an organization that just doesn't appreciate his talents.

He's 27, and looks like he won't have a permanent spot on the roster again this year.

He has done all that he can to earn a spot, and yet, he is probably going to be the odd man out.

Instead, we will keep an old man who is past his prime, body failing, just because we owe him another 30 million on what everyone knew was going to be a bad contract in years 3-5. Luckily we got out of paying him in year 3.

If we aren't going to use Taylor, trade him, give the guy a chance on another team that will use him.

It's a shame really.

Are you Cain's doctor? Because I have no idea where you get off stating as fact his body is failing. It's laughable. Maybe let's wait to watch the guy play before shopping around for homes where he can be placed with assisted living.

 

Meanwhile, they have Garcia, they signed JBJ, Derek Fisher might just have had a roster spot locked up but got hurt and Billy McKinney is still in the mix. Not to mention David Robinson as an emergency guy.

 

Cain isn't the guy holding Taylor back. Taylor isn't going to break camp on the 26 man because he's not top six on the depth chart and Stearns made a point to bring in several other guys because he wanted better options.

 

The number 1 reason is that they most likely want him to keep getting consistent at bats and being the 5th OF in Milwaukee he'd get very sporadic playing time.

 

Nope, not a doctor, but anyone who watches this team on a regular basis can see where Cain is headed.

In 2019, he acted and moved like he was in constant pain.

You think that is going to be any better 2 seasons later?

He's old in MLB terms, not real life. Assisted living is a bit of a stretch.

He is inured frequently, and there is just no way we get value from him these next two seasons.

I like Cain, I really do, but the guy will be hurt a lot imho.

I'd like Taylor to get a legit chance to succeed on this roster, and he will probably be able to up and down all season due to Cain's injuries.

Sorry to offend you.

[SeaBass]

It's really too bad that Tyrone Taylor is stuck in an organization that just doesn't appreciate his talents.

He's 27, and looks like he won't have a permanent spot on the roster again this year.

He has done all that he can to earn a spot, and yet, he is probably going to be the odd man out.

Instead, we will keep an old man who is past his prime, body failing, just because we owe him another 30 million on what everyone knew was going to be a bad contract in years 3-5. Luckily we got out of paying him in year 3.

If we aren't going to use Taylor, trade him, give the guy a chance on another team that will use him.

It's a shame really.

Are you Cain's doctor? Because I have no idea where you get off stating as fact his body is failing. It's laughable. Maybe let's wait to watch the guy play before shopping around for homes where he can be placed with assisted living.

 

Meanwhile, they have Garcia, they signed JBJ, Derek Fisher might just have had a roster spot locked up but got hurt and Billy McKinney is still in the mix. Not to mention David Robinson as an emergency guy.

 

Cain isn't the guy holding Taylor back. Taylor isn't going to break camp on the 26 man because he's not top six on the depth chart and Stearns made a point to bring in several other guys because he wanted better options.

 

The number 1 reason is that they most likely want him to keep getting consistent at bats and being the 5th OF in Milwaukee he'd get very sporadic playing time.

 

Nope, not a doctor, but anyone who watches this team on a regular basis can see where Cain is headed.

In 2019, he acted and moved like he was in constant pain.

You think that is going to be any better 2 seasons later?

He's old in MLB terms, not real life. Assisted living is a bit of a stretch.

He is inured frequently, and there is just no way we get value from him these next two seasons.

I like Cain, I really do, but the guy will be hurt a lot imho.

I'd like Taylor to get a legit chance to succeed on this roster, and he will probably be able to up and down all season due to Cain's injuries.

Sorry to offend you.

I wouldn't call it offense, flabbergasted is more like it. But I get it now, just very extreme and totally separated from reality bias. Cain's injuries. Wow.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I get that Cain is getting up there in age, but they aren't going to eat 2 years of that contract simply to get Tyrone Taylor on the field more. I think the JBJ signing was a much bigger indication of where the team sees Taylor's future. I like Taylor and it would be fun to see a guy with his sort of athleticism break out at the MLB level, but I think at this point the chance of him being anything more than a 5th OFer/AAAA type is probably slim.

[Jopal78]

It's really too bad that Tyrone Taylor is stuck in an organization that just doesn't appreciate his talents.

He's 27, and looks like he won't have a permanent spot on the roster again this year.

He has done all that he can to earn a spot, and yet, he is probably going to be the odd man out.

Instead, we will keep an old man who is past his prime, body failing, just because we owe him another 30 million on what everyone knew was going to be a bad contract in years 3-5. Luckily we got out of paying him in year 3.

If we aren't going to use Taylor, trade him, give the guy a chance on another team that will use him.

It's a shame really.

 

There is a reason Taylor is entering his 10th! season with the organization and has less than 75 major league at bats; and it has nothing to do with his talents being underappreciated. In fact, one could say the Brewers have been very patient with Taylor.

 

For example, in the 2nd round of the 2012 draft 15 teams drafted a player(s) out of high school with their pick(s).Tyrone Taylor is the only one still with his original organization. Of the 17 high school players taken in the 2nd round of the 2012 draft, 10 of the 17 high school players selected in the 2nd round were jettisoned by their original organization without every seeing time in the major leagues. Only four of the 17 saw time in the majors with the club who drafted them (Taylor, Carson Kelly, Dylan Cozens and Duane Underwood Jr.).

 

It's easy to get lost in the major league small sample size, spring training stats or the thin air in the PCL; however Tyrone Taylor is basically a CFer with speed who doesn't steel a lot of bases, doesn't get on base exceptionally well or hit for power. He's a fringe major leaguer who's best assets right now are his remaining option and major league minimum salary.

[wildcat83]

It's crazy that people are mad at having decent players on the fringe of the roster. I feel like depth will be more important this year than ever before. You don't trade away your 5th outfielder just so he can get more playing time on a different team. If he's playing well he will get enough AB this year. Teams don't make it through full seasons using only 4 OF'ers.

 

To say Cain will deliver no value is extremely negative. His defense alone will probably get him to a positive WAR. He just went through a season with literally no wear and tear on his body. At his age, that might actually be a good thing. He's well rested :-). He looked pretty good in the 6 or so games he played last year, and so far in spring, he hasn't shown any signs of falling off a cliff.

[Lathund]

This year, Taylor has an option, which means he will be available for whenever one of the OFs on the roster goes on the IL; Which will happen, several times. It always does. If you were to do something stupid like release Cain, then Taylor would be on the roster... but there would be no Taylor to call on when injuries happen. This is unfortunate for Taylor of course, but I'm fairly certain he'll still see 150plate appearances or so. And can we also recognize that while Taylor looks like a useful player (I certainly think so anyway), he has performed well over a grand total of 54 MLB plate appearances, and is now doing well over 40 or so plate appearances in spring training. In his last full minor league season he was a below average hitter. It's really not unreasonable to not hand him an opening day spot. Also both Garcia (Team option) and JBJ (Opt-out) may be gone in 2022. And Cain is yet another year older. That's another reason to keep Taylor around, in addition to what he will do this year.