Spring Training Battle: 3B (and SS and UT)

[umphrey]

I put more stock into the fact that Arcia has been the worst offensive player in baseball over the past 3 years (by 8 points on WRC+, a healthy margin) but to each their own, I guess

[jerichoholicninja]

.879 Playoffs

.985 NLCS

Also, 3 Septembers at .744+

 

I absolutely take that into account, not just game 163.

 

[sarcasm]Then leave him on the DL until September.[/sarcasm]

[CheezWizHed]

Ok now, everyone stop crapping on Urias... He just homered off Kershaw.. Starting job is his.

 

[sarcasm]Meh.. so he hits as good as a pitcher...[/sarcasm]

[FVBrewerFan]

I put more stock into the fact that Arcia has been the worst offensive player in baseball over the past 3 years (by 8 points on WRC+, a healthy margin) but to each their own, I guess

 

Besides the hundreds of guys like Urias during those 3 years who aren't good enough to stick.

[sveumrules]

I put more stock into the fact that Arcia has been the worst offensive player in baseball over the past 3 years (by 8 points on WRC+, a healthy margin) but to each their own, I guess

 

Besides the hundreds of guys like Urias during those 3 years who aren't good enough to stick.

 

Urias has a 76 wRC+ the last three years compared to 65 for Arcia, the only thing Orlando has gotten is more opportunities to stick.

 

There are 614 position players with at least 100 PAs over the last three seasons, Orlando ranks 519th in wRC+.

 

If you lower it to 50 PAs Orlando comes in 550th of 686 by wRC+, so still not hundreds of players even with a PA threshold of September call-up.

[CheeseheadInQC]

We've seen enough of Arcia's little league swing and noodle bat, let's give someone who at least has some sort of track record of being able to hit the ball at some point in their life a chance.

I agree with this. People point to Carlos Gomez and his figuring it out in his age 26-27 season as a reason to not give up on him just yet. While I can understand the point, one has nothing to do with the other. To the eye test, Arcia's defense has started to slip already and he makes the routine plays more difficult than need be. Additionally, he has made zero effort to change his approach at the plate. How many times does he have to step in the bucket and open up his entire left side when the pitch is down and away? His approach leads one to believe he thinks he is Javier Baez and he has never approached that type of production.

 

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

The Gomez comparisons are pointless. Carlos was pretty bad his whole career, put up two really good seasons, and then was mediocre the rest. But he at least passed the eye test in terms of "this guy might be a hitter someday". At no point have I watched Arcia and thought he has the potential to do anything at the plate - terrible discipline and terrible swing. I wonder what his career path would have been had he not had that "great" offensive year in AA. I remember a lot of people here and the media fawning over him after that. He's never backed it up.

 

Everything you've said was correct until last year. That's the conundrum with Arcia is that suddenly that noodle bat was having league-average exit velocities and that awful plate discipline was laying off pitches outside the strike zone at a better than league-average rate. I don't think he'll reach Gomez's level, which was legit MVP-caliber player at his short peak, but I also don't see what is so crazy about thinking that last year's numbers could indicate that he's turning into a league-average offensive shortstop. And, well, there's value in that.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Reading between the lines on what Counsell said during his media session about Shaw, it certainly sounds like its still the plan for Urias to be the main SS, and for Arcia bounce around between SS and 3B as needed. Counsell even mentioned him as the first alternative at 3B ahead of Robertson should Shaw scuffle.

 

I think it might be time to get used to the idea of Urias as this team's SS, sink or swim, moving forward.

[DR28]

Reading between the lines on what Counsell said during his media session about Shaw, it certainly sounds like its still the plan for Urias to be the main SS, and for Arcia bounce around between SS and 3B as needed. Counsell even mentioned him as the first alternative at 3B ahead of Robertson should Shaw scuffle.

 

I think it might be time to get used to the idea of Urias as this team's SS, sink or swim, moving forward.

 

As he should be... Arcia is a terrible hitter, we need to see what we have in Urias... Why can't Urias be given the leash that Arcia has been given?

[jerichoholicninja]

I put more stock into the fact that Arcia has been the worst offensive player in baseball over the past 3 years (by 8 points on WRC+, a healthy margin) but to each their own, I guess

 

Besides the hundreds of guys like Urias during those 3 years who aren't good enough to stick.

 

So is your point that Arcia really isn't that bad of a hitter because there are hundreds of guys not good enough to stick in the majors that are worse hitters than he is?

[wildcat83]

I have no clue on defensive metrics, but in any game that Arcia and Urias are on the field together, does it make sense for Arcia to play 3B and Urias SS defensively? In my head this should be the other way around.

[wildcat83]

I have no clue on defensive metrics, but in any game that Arcia and Urias are on the field together, does it make sense for Arcia to play 3B and Urias SS defensively? In my head this should be the other way around.

[brewerfan82]

I have no clue on defensive metrics, but in any game that Arcia and Urias are on the field together, does it make sense for Arcia to play 3B and Urias SS defensively? In my head this should be the other way around.

Despite his reputation, the metrics (which I'm sure are still pretty flawed as far as evaluation goes) only show him as a middle of the pack SS the past three years:

 

 

I think he's a guy that passes the eye test because of the occasional flashy play he makes, but he's far from the "elite" defender we think of him as. He hasn't looked very sharp this Spring either. I think I saw the other day that he's already racked up 4 errors (albeit I think some came at 3B).

 

That said, I don't know if Urias is a better shortstop or not, but I wouldn't assume Arcia's a slam dunk better defender at this point either.

[wildcat83]

I wouldn't assume Arcia's a slam dunk better defender at this point either.

 

I wasn't so much thinking who's flat out a better defender I guess. More so that Arcia has only played SS and is just learning 3B this year, where Urias has some experience at 3B. That's why it seemed odd to me that in situations where they're both on the field at the same time, it sounded like CC wanted Arcia to play 3B. I would guess that they end up on the field at the same time a decent amount this year.

 

He commented that if Shaw struggles that Arcia would be a candidate to get time there. If that was the case though, why wouldn't you just slide Urias over and have Arcia play SS in those games?

[bjkrautk]

Because of the Brewers' history over the past decade, we've seen a number of shortstop prospects rushed to the majors and put up less-than-stellar offensive numbers in their low-to-mid 20s.

 

In the years after trading him, Alcides Escobar's wRC+ improved significantly for his first four years with KC, before falling back down.

Jean Segura has posted a 92 or better wRC+ in every year since leaving Milwaukee, despite being brutal in his last two seasons here.

 

Arcia was a mini- bright spot in 2020, as he was closer to mediocre from the plate (96 wRC+). It was the two years before when he couldn't hit (55 in 2018 and 62 in 2019). While I do think the club needs to see what Urias can do when in the lineup on a regular basis, I also can't help but think they might be giving up on Arcia at exactly the wrong time.

[brewerfan82]

I wouldn't assume Arcia's a slam dunk better defender at this point either.

 

I wasn't so much thinking who's flat out a better defender I guess. More so that Arcia has only played SS and is just learning 3B this year, where Urias has some experience at 3B. That's why it seemed odd to me that in situations where they're both on the field at the same time, it sounded like CC wanted Arcia to play 3B. I would guess that they end up on the field at the same time a decent amount this year.

 

He commented that if Shaw struggles that Arcia would be a candidate to get time there. If that was the case though, why wouldn't you just slide Urias over and have Arcia play SS in those games?

Ah gotcha, that's reasonable. I think they just see Urias as a longer term solution there and would rather the "starters" not being the ones who bounce around defensively.

[SeaBass]

I wouldn't assume Arcia's a slam dunk better defender at this point either.

 

I wasn't so much thinking who's flat out a better defender I guess. More so that Arcia has only played SS and is just learning 3B this year, where Urias has some experience at 3B. That's why it seemed odd to me that in situations where they're both on the field at the same time, it sounded like CC wanted Arcia to play 3B. I would guess that they end up on the field at the same time a decent amount this year.

 

He commented that if Shaw struggles that Arcia would be a candidate to get time there. If that was the case though, why wouldn't you just slide Urias over and have Arcia play SS in those games?

Historically it feels like Counsell's MO has been once you've decided a guy is going to have a go at a specific position he leaves him there and doesn't bounce him around. He's done it for Braun and Yelich so far when each moved from RF to LF, there's probably some infield guys too I'm not recalling. If the idea is to get Urias settled in at SS they're going to want him to get most if not all of his on field playing time there.

[DR28]

God it sounds like Arcia will be platooning with Shaw at 3B, unbelievable... There’s nothing left to see in Arcia... Horrible O and spotty D now.

[SeaBass]

Still having trouble adjusting to that whole "get used to the idea of Arcia getting fairly regular playing time" I see

 

I mean, even in a platoon he gets the smaller end of playing time so I'm not sure why this is such horrible news. To me the bad news is we're going to have a strikeout machine getting a ton of starts in the middle of the order, at least when Arcia plays he's usually batting 8th.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

God it sounds like Arcia will be platooning with Shaw at 3B, unbelievable... There’s nothing left to see in Arcia... Horrible O and spotty D now.

 

I'm not real sure what is unbelievable about this. This type of move is right in the wheelhouse of the type of thing the Brewers have done in recent years.

[Jopal78]

God it sounds like Arcia will be platooning with Shaw at 3B, unbelievable... There’s nothing left to see in Arcia... Horrible O and spotty D now.

 

...or Arcia sees his future isn’t in Milwaukee and this year and next year represent the difference between fighting for a job as a journeyman shortstop or getting a multi-year guarantee somewhere so he is hyper motivated to max out every drop of his talent.

[jerichoholicninja]

I hate Arcia as much as anyone but based on the current roster I don't see how this could have turned out any differently.

[djoctagone]

I’m a little surprised that Robertson has yet to play a single inning at 3B in a Spring Training game. Maybe they just want to see his versatility at other positions, but I figured he’d get plenty of reps there this spring.

he's starting at third base today.

[DR28]

Why not Robertson at 3B to platoon with Shaw?

 

He’s much better there.

[DR28]

Really surprised ya’ll are ok with Arcia at 3B against lefties.......

[TURBO]

Really surprised ya’ll are ok with Arcia at 3B against lefties.......

 

Or righties.

 

Is there a weaker bat playing 3B in the majors? (I know someone will search this out to prove me wrong...lol)