Spring Training Battle: 3B (and SS and UT)

[SeaBass]

Folks really, really need to get used to the idea that Arcia isn't going anywhere (unless he gets traded which feels very unlikely). He's being paid $2 million, he's going to be on the roster. He will get playing time along with any other position players he will be sharing time with, which may or may not include Urias at the start of the season. If Urias doesn't start the season in the majors chances are nearly 100% that he will be at some point. I don't understand why everyone is getting worked up about it, they're all around the same level of "barely passable" as it is. Is it really worth the spike in everyone's blood pressure which guy with the .700 OPS is going to be in the lineup every day?

[DR28]

Folks really, really need to get used to the idea that Arcia isn't going anywhere (unless he gets traded which feels very unlikely). He's being paid $2 million, he's going to be on the roster. He will get playing time along with any other position players he will be sharing time with, which may or may not include Urias at the start of the season. If Urias doesn't start the season in the majors chances are nearly 100% that he will be at some point. I don't understand why everyone is getting worked up about it, they're all around the same level of "barely passable" as it is. Is it really worth the spike in everyone's blood pressure which guy with the .700 OPS is going to be in the lineup every day?

 

Urias will be on the OD roster... AAA season is delayed until May.

[wildcat83]

 

Plus Urias can't be sent down anyway since AAA won't be starting until like May.

 

 

So you think that anyone that doesn't make the opening day roster just gets shut down until May?

[SeaBass]

Folks really, really need to get used to the idea that Arcia isn't going anywhere (unless he gets traded which feels very unlikely). He's being paid $2 million, he's going to be on the roster. He will get playing time along with any other position players he will be sharing time with, which may or may not include Urias at the start of the season. If Urias doesn't start the season in the majors chances are nearly 100% that he will be at some point. I don't understand why everyone is getting worked up about it, they're all around the same level of "barely passable" as it is. Is it really worth the spike in everyone's blood pressure which guy with the .700 OPS is going to be in the lineup every day?

 

Urias will be on the OD roster... AAA season is delayed until May.

For clarity, majors = 26 man roster. And I said "if". As far as I know Urias is still in the mix for a spot on the 26 man roster so we don't know where he'll be placed yet.

[clancyphile]

Arcia has "grown-up" on the big stage and has probably paid for it in his process of becoming an MLB player. He was forced up young. He has now shown indications of improvement. It would also be nuts to ignore that and move on from him without actually seeing if something has changed.

 

Calling him up in 2016 when he was posting a .723 OPS at Colorado Springs was incredibly stupid on two counts.

1. We're talking a drop of 77 points from his 2015 OPS playing half the time in a park where a pitcher would give up five runs and call it a good day. It was a red flag that he needed more time.

2. Jonathan Villar was more than capably holding shortstop down and posting some excellent offensive numbers.

 

It was bad for Arcia, it probably didn't do Villar any goodm and it was bad for the Brewers.

[pacopete4]

I see Green and Reyes are gone now. Looks to be Arcia, Robertson, Shaw, Urias to remain right now.

[djoctagone]

Plus Urias can't be sent down anyway since AAA won't be starting until like May.

So you think that anyone that doesn't make the opening day roster just gets shut down until May?

the brewers have to figure that out. 28 players will report to the alternate training site to work out in april until the class aaa season starts. 26 players will open the season at american family field. a second wave of spring training will be starting in maryvale, but these will be guys who need time to clear intake and get ramped up.

[DR28]

 

Plus Urias can't be sent down anyway since AAA won't be starting until like May.

 

 

So you think that anyone that doesn't make the opening day roster just gets shut down until May?

 

Not what I meant... What good is sending him to AT site? Won't be playing any real games until May.

[SeaBass]

I don't think the Brewers are primarily concerned with "what's good for Urias". They're concerned with "what's good for the Brewers". That goes for any player really.

[wildcat83]

 

Plus Urias can't be sent down anyway since AAA won't be starting until like May.

 

 

So you think that anyone that doesn't make the opening day roster just gets shut down until May?

 

Not what I meant... What good is sending him to AT site? Won't be playing any real games until May.

 

 

Most of the regulars in ST right now are not playing regularly in games. That doesn't mean that they aren't going to be improving or getting ready for the season. There are inter-squad games that go on behind the scenes everyday, which is probably exactly what will occur in AT sites. Those guys are getting their work in, and facing live pitching. One could argue that he would get more reps at the AT site than a live game.

 

I think Urias makes the roster, but lack of AAA games will have nothing to do with it. For the record, I think he's the back up SS to start the year, but gets a lot of PT between the infield spots. Saying Arcia can't hit because of a 3 year average of stats is sort of cherry picking. The point many people are trying to argue is that he seems like a Carlos Gomez type breakout may be possible. He's getting to that age and shows glimpses of it.

 

We aren't saying he's been a good hitter. We are saying we suffered through his development issues, so why cut bait now, right when it appears that he may reach a higher ceiling? Between 2B, SS, and 3B there are plenty of AB to go around between Arcia, Urias, Shaw, and Robertson.

[monty57]

Arcia has "grown-up" on the big stage and has probably paid for it in his process of becoming an MLB player. He was forced up young. He has now shown indications of improvement. It would also be nuts to ignore that and move on from him without actually seeing if something has changed.

 

Yeah, how Arcia was handled is in my mind when I think about Urias. Arcia was brought up in a PR stunt to showcase the team's top prospect. At the time Villar was doing fine at SS, Gennett was manning 2B, and Arcia wasn't ready for the show but he was brought up anyhow. Once up, he was cemented into the position regardless of performance, and Gennett was left without a position, so he was let go right before his breakout.

 

We'll never know how Arcia would've progressed if he was given some more time in the minors, but we know he didn't grow the way we hoped while playing in the majors. The minors are made for development, the majors are not. I don't want the same mistake to be made here. If Urias is the obvious choice, then he should be the starting SS. If it's a toss-up, then let Arcia play and save Urias' service time.

 

All rushing prospects does is uses us their cheap arby years when they're not that good, and by the time they're MLB-ready they're getting expensive. I personally wish we hadn't burned up a year of Burnes' service time bouncing him between the rotation and bullpen when he should have been sent to AAA after his first few starts. When he hits free agency a year early, we'll just have to cry in our beer about how unfair baseball economics are, while we should also be lamenting how we wasted a year of his service time. It's not a big deal if you waste the service time of a so-so prospect, but your top prospects' service time is very valuable... don't waste it.

 

I'd rather have an extra year of Urias' prime when he's playing like a star rather than forcing him onto the roster this year when he's struggling just because "we didn't trade for him to be in AAA."

[jerichoholicninja]

Arcia has "grown-up" on the big stage and has probably paid for it in his process of becoming an MLB player. He was forced up young. He has now shown indications of improvement. It would also be nuts to ignore that and move on from him without actually seeing if something has changed.

 

The same indications he shows every year for about 2 weeks before going back to the same free swinging ground ball machine? He's been gifted the starting SS job since he first came up and has made zero changes to his horrible approach at the plate. I don't care how old he is now or how old he was when he first came up, he's shown no improvement and yet he keeps getting a free pass for some reason. Urias has a much better minor league track record for hitting and Robertson's MLB stats are actually quite a bit better than Arcia's. There is no reason Orlando should be an everyday player at any position, especially for a team that expects to compete for a playoff spot.

[Lathund]

I'm not a believer in Arcia. Yes, 2020 saw some actual underlying improvements like a slightly better strikeout rate, and better hard contact/barrel rates, so it wasn't necessarily just "doing the same thing but with better results" as some previous good stretches (Though I'd be wary of the small sample when it comes to the barrel stats). And there's a chance it's the start of something better. But he was still a groundball machine (Tied for the league lead in GIDP) with the same (to me, anyway) poor hitting mechanics as always. And I don't think he's the kind of defender who can justify poor hitting. And his speed is trending in a worrying direction when it comes to future value on defense and in the running game. I hope to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

All that being said, I don't think there is any reason to completely "move on" from Arcia; I also don't think many people are suggesting it. With Mathias out for several months you'd at least want Arcia for depth if nothing else. Even if you believe in Urias (I do) and want him as the primary shortstop, there's still place for Arcia on the bench. And if you *really* don't believe in Arcia he still has minor league options remaining. The team doesn't have to commit to one or the other. Both can be optioned, and at least Urias has experience at 2B and 3B as well. Keep both, see how they perform, assign playing time accordingly. Option one if necessary.

 

But for opening day, I fully expect Arcia, Urias and Robertson all on the roster. They're not going to roll with just one SS/2B/3B option on the bench. They probably really like what they see from Reyes, but since he is on a minor league deal they can always wait and see if he's needed before removing someone else from the 40-man.

[DR28]

Ok now, everyone stop crapping on Urias... He just homered off Kershaw.. Starting job is his.

[Warning Track Power]

We've seen enough of Arcia's little league swing and noodle bat, let's give someone who at least has some sort of track record of being able to hit the ball at some point in their life a chance.

I agree with this. People point to Carlos Gomez and his figuring it out in his age 26-27 season as a reason to not give up on him just yet. While I can understand the point, one has nothing to do with the other. To the eye test, Arcia's defense has started to slip already and he makes the routine plays more difficult than need be. Additionally, he has made zero effort to change his approach at the plate. How many times does he have to step in the bucket and open up his entire left side when the pitch is down and away? His approach leads one to believe he thinks he is Javier Baez and he has never approached that type of production.

 

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

[clancyphile]

Arcia has "grown-up" on the big stage and has probably paid for it in his process of becoming an MLB player. He was forced up young. He has now shown indications of improvement. It would also be nuts to ignore that and move on from him without actually seeing if something has changed.

 

Yeah, how Arcia was handled is in my mind when I think about Urias. Arcia was brought up in a PR stunt to showcase the team's top prospect. At the time Villar was doing fine at SS, Gennett was manning 2B, and Arcia wasn't ready for the show but he was brought up anyhow. Once up, he was cemented into the position regardless of performance, and Gennett was left without a position, so he was let go right before his breakout.

 

We'll never know how Arcia would've progressed if he was given some more time in the minors, but we know he didn't grow the way we hoped while playing in the majors. The minors are made for development, the majors are not. I don't want the same mistake to be made here. If Urias is the obvious choice, then he should be the starting SS. If it's a toss-up, then let Arcia play and save Urias' service time.

 

All rushing prospects does is uses us their cheap arby years when they're not that good, and by the time they're MLB-ready they're getting expensive. I personally wish we hadn't burned up a year of Burnes' service time bouncing him between the rotation and bullpen when he should have been sent to AAA after his first few starts. When he hits free agency a year early, we'll just have to cry in our beer about how unfair baseball economics are, while we should also be lamenting how we wasted a year of his service time. It's not a big deal if you waste the service time of a so-so prospect, but your top prospects' service time is very valuable... don't waste it.

 

I'd rather have an extra year of Urias' prime when he's playing like a star rather than forcing him onto the roster this year when he's struggling just because "we didn't trade for him to be in AAA."

 

This. And it wasn't just Arcia who they messed up with.

 

I personally would have even used Jimmy Nelson's option year for him to recover in 2019 after he'd missed all of 2018. Service time would not have been burned up, he would have been able to pitch regularly. They had time before he could have refused the assignment.

 

They did it right with Grisham. Now, we're wondering if we got burned when we dealt him, because he'd look great in that OF with Yelich, Cain, and Bradley.

[monty57]

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

Urias is 15 months older than Garrett Mitchell, and four months younger than Ethan Small. Feliciano, Ashby, and Zamora are also around the same age. In other words, Urias deserves some patience.

 

I'm not saying Urias should start at AAA because I don't like him, nor am I saying it because I think Arcia/Robertson are going to become stars. I'm saying it because he is a very talented young player who has struggled and could probably use some time in the minors to get things straightened out, rather than trying to straighten things out in the majors with the clock ticking.

 

The presence of Arcia and Robertson allow the Brewers the luxury to start Urias at AAA (or the "Alternate Training Facility"), so in my opinion he should only start the season on the 26-man roster if he is undoubtedly the best player right now, not that he has the potential to be the best player in the future. I don't have any question that he has the most potential of the three, I just question whether the Brewers might get more total value out of him during the years they "control" him if they give him some time in the minors to start this season.

 

Whatever happens, I really don't like the idea of giving him two months to prove himself before giving up on him. He's far too young, with too much potential for that. The thought that he's too important right now to send him to the minors, but in two months we'll be ready to start studying next year's free agent market doesn't make sense to me.

 

I'm probably fighting an uphill battle, as I highly doubt he starts the year in the minors. I just think that it merits consideration, and may be the best thing for the Brewers in both the short- and long-term.

[Warning Track Power]

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

Whatever happens, I really don't like the idea of giving him two months to prove himself before giving up on him. He's far too young, with too much potential for that. The thought that he's too important right now to send him to the minors, but in two months we'll be ready to start studying next year's free agent market doesn't make sense to me.

I misspoke here. I should clarify that I did not mean give him two months and if he isn't hitting to give up on him. I meant at that point I would be ok with sending him down to work on his game at Nashville and allow him the time to develop to eventually replace Wong at 2B or the interim solution at SS (be it Arcia/Robertson or a trade target in season).

[monty57]

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

Whatever happens, I really don't like the idea of giving him two months to prove himself before giving up on him. He's far too young, with too much potential for that. The thought that he's too important right now to send him to the minors, but in two months we'll be ready to start studying next year's free agent market doesn't make sense to me.

I misspoke here. I should clarify that I did not mean give him two months and if he isn't hitting to give up on him. I meant at that point I would be ok with sending him down to work on his game at Nashville and allow him the time to develop to eventually replace Wong at 2B or the interim solution at SS (be it Arcia/Robertson or a trade target in season).

 

Thanks for the clarification. I couldn't imagine that you would want to give up on him quite that soon.

[SeaBass]

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

Urias is 15 months older than Garrett Mitchell, and four months younger than Ethan Small. Feliciano, Ashby, and Zamora are also around the same age. In other words, Urias deserves some patience.

 

I'm not saying Urias should start at AAA because I don't like him, nor am I saying it because I think Arcia/Robertson are going to become stars. I'm saying it because he is a very talented young player who has struggled and could probably use some time in the minors to get things straightened out, rather than trying to straighten things out in the majors with the clock ticking.

 

The presence of Arcia and Robertson allow the Brewers the luxury to start Urias at AAA (or the "Alternate Training Facility"), so in my opinion he should only start the season on the 26-man roster if he is undoubtedly the best player right now, not that he has the potential to be the best player in the future. I don't have any question that he has the most potential of the three, I just question whether the Brewers might get more total value out of him during the years they "control" him if they give him some time in the minors to start this season.

 

Whatever happens, I really don't like the idea of giving him two months to prove himself before giving up on him. He's far too young, with too much potential for that. The thought that he's too important right now to send him to the minors, but in two months we'll be ready to start studying next year's free agent market doesn't make sense to me.

 

I'm probably fighting an uphill battle, as I highly doubt he starts the year in the minors. I just think that it merits consideration, and may be the best thing for the Brewers in both the short- and long-term.

Thank you, I think this sums it up very nicely. I'm all for getting Urias playing time, I just think it's going to start from a timeshare and whomever is having the most success will get more playing time. I haven't been saying that Arcia should be the starter, I've only ever said he's going to be on the team and he's going to play. I think there should be plenty of ABs for Shaw, Urias and Arcia (Robertson too I suppose) between 3B/SS and some spot starts at 2B. I would love if Urias breaks out, I want that as much as anyone.

[pacopete4]

Urias taking the lefty (Kershaw) deep today is a great sign that he will hopefully at least continue to hit lefties.

[jerichoholicninja]

We've seen enough of Arcia's little league swing and noodle bat, let's give someone who at least has some sort of track record of being able to hit the ball at some point in their life a chance.

I agree with this. People point to Carlos Gomez and his figuring it out in his age 26-27 season as a reason to not give up on him just yet. While I can understand the point, one has nothing to do with the other. To the eye test, Arcia's defense has started to slip already and he makes the routine plays more difficult than need be. Additionally, he has made zero effort to change his approach at the plate. How many times does he have to step in the bucket and open up his entire left side when the pitch is down and away? His approach leads one to believe he thinks he is Javier Baez and he has never approached that type of production.

 

Nothing personal to Arcia but I give Urias at least the first two months to at least show what he has as an everyday player. If Urias is still meddling, a timeshare might make sense, and see what could potentially be had on the trade market or free agency next year.

 

The Gomez comparisons are pointless. Carlos was pretty bad his whole career, put up two really good seasons, and then was mediocre the rest. But he at least passed the eye test in terms of "this guy might be a hitter someday". At no point have I watched Arcia and thought he has the potential to do anything at the plate - terrible discipline and terrible swing. I wonder what his career path would have been had he not had that "great" offensive year in AA. I remember a lot of people here and the media fawning over him after that. He's never backed it up.

[miggs721]

Game 163 didnt mean anything to you?

[Jenkins5]

I'd gladly take Gomez 2012 - 1st Half of 15' all over again.

 

2017 Arcia was pretty solid then two poor years. Then last year was step back in right direction. Does he swing at dumb pitches and not walk enough, yes. However, he K's less than 20% and 7-8% BB isn't dreadful. His soft contact% has decreased every year and his hard contact % has increased every year. As well as his exit velocity and barrel percentage. For good chunk of last summer, he was one of the few actually not looking just terrible out there offensively.

 

Not saying he is going to Gomez like breakout at 26 but there are signs of improvement. Don't think he is as useless has claimed to be. Defense has been a head scratcher though.

 

Overall, I'm very interested in how CC manages this infield. Urias has had small sample with all the injuries but he has just as much to prove. Whoever is coming out and hitting will find way on field more. At this point, I still think that may be Arcia. Just haven't seen enough from Urias to really give me much optimism that he is clear better choice. Again small sample and I have followed Arcia for like 8 years now so that hope is still there for him to click.

[FVBrewerFan]

.879 Playoffs

.985 NLCS

Also, 3 Septembers at .744+

 

I absolutely take that into account, not just game 163.