Jose Ramirez

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

As an fyi...

Braves fans are on twitter today about possible Jose Ramirez deal. It got started by Hector Gomez (who was one of first to break Ozuna signing) replying to a twitter proposed line up for the Braves w Ramirez.

 

HGomez said he hopes Braves can get it done and the deal on table is supposedly for De La Cruz, Waters, Riley and Langeliers ....

He said possible (noting that CLE will listen) but pulling trigger is something else.

---------------------------

 

Personally I don't believe that CLE is motivated to trade JRam (before the start of the 2021 season).

 

If Austin Riley is the uber prospect that Braves fans make him out to be, why wouldn't they just give him the job? Personally I'd be leery of any deal involving the Braves, as their prospects always seem to be over hyped.

[brewerfan82]

Using everyone's favorite trade simulator in a slightly different manner, this seems pretty comparable to some of the ideas thrown around here from a Brewers' standpoint:

 

[MadThinker88]

As an fyi...

Braves fans are on twitter today about possible Jose Ramirez deal. It got started by Hector Gomez (who was one of first to break Ozuna signing) replying to a twitter proposed line up for the Braves w Ramirez.

 

HGomez said he hopes Braves can get it done and the deal on table is supposedly for De La Cruz, Waters, Riley and Langeliers ....

He said possible (noting that CLE will listen) but pulling trigger is something else.

---------------------------

 

Personally I don't believe that CLE is motivated to trade JRam (before the start of the 2021 season).

 

If Austin Riley is the uber prospect that Braves fans make him out to be, why wouldn't they just give him the job? Personally I'd be leery of any deal involving the Braves, as their prospects always seem to be over hyped.

 

We are in full agreement regarding Braves dealing their 'prospects'...

[JosephC]

Some Braves prospect listing in the top 5 of the organizational list in Baseball Reference Prospect Handbook's since 2008

 

Career bWAR

 

Jason Heyward = 38.4

Freddie Freeman = 38.8

Julio Teheran = 19.4

Mike Minor = 17.8

Craig Kimbrel = 19.4

Andrelton Simmons = 36.8

Ozzie Albies = 11.7 (already 1 All-Star appearances and 1 Silver Slugger which happened in different seasons)

Mike Soroka = 5.7 (one All-Star appearance and 6th place finish in Cy Young voting)

Ronald Acuna = 12.1 (already 3 finishes in the top 12 of MVP voting)

 

That's just picking guys out of the top 5, looking down the list one finds a bunch more guys who have become solid MLB players like Alex Wood, Nick Ahmed, Tommy La Stella. And then there are a few more names that look good but it's too early to tell, one example being Ian Anderson.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Some Braves prospect listing in the top 5 of the organizational list in Baseball Reference Prospect Handbook's since 2008

 

Career bWAR

 

Jason Heyward = 38.4

Freddie Freeman = 38.8

Julio Teheran = 19.4

Mike Minor = 17.8

Craig Kimbrel = 19.4

Andrelton Simmons = 36.8

Ozzie Albies = 11.7 (already 1 All-Star appearances and 1 Silver Slugger which happened in different seasons)

Mike Soroka = 5.7 (one All-Star appearance and 6th place finish in Cy Young voting)

Ronald Acuna = 12.1 (already 3 finishes in the top 12 of MVP voting)

 

That's just picking guys out of the top 5, looking down the list one finds a bunch more guys who have become solid MLB players like Alex Wood, Nick Ahmed, Tommy La Stella. And then there are a few more names that look good but it's too early to tell, one example being Ian Anderson.

 

OK, now do a list of prospects they have traded while they still had prospect status ...

[adambr2]

Yeah, I don't think there's really anything to Braves prospects being flops. I think you could look through any system and find guys that have been home runs and find some that haven't panned out.

 

Frankly I think our own top 50s have been way more miss than hit. Phillips, Ray, Arcia, Brinson. Hader has been the one real home run in recent memory if we're looking at top 50 guys. Hiura looked to be well on his way but now we're kind of back in wait and see mode.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yeah, I don't think there's really anything to Braves prospects being flops. I think you could look through any system and find guys that have been home runs and find some that haven't panned out.

 

Frankly I think our own top 50s have been way more miss than hit. Phillips, Ray, Arcia, Brinson. Hader has been the one real home run in recent memory if we're looking at top 50 guys. Hiura looked to be well on his way but now we're kind of back in wait and see mode.

 

Michael Brantley has worked out very well. Lorenzo Cain. Jake Odorizzi. Even Alcides Escobar had some solid seasons. Jeffress has turned into a solid player. Obviously Nelson Cruz was a huge miss. Grisham looked like a stud last year.

[adambr2]

Yeah, I don't think there's really anything to Braves prospects being flops. I think you could look through any system and find guys that have been home runs and find some that haven't panned out.

 

Frankly I think our own top 50s have been way more miss than hit. Phillips, Ray, Arcia, Brinson. Hader has been the one real home run in recent memory if we're looking at top 50 guys. Hiura looked to be well on his way but now we're kind of back in wait and see mode.

 

Michael Brantley has worked out very well. Lorenzo Cain. Jake Odorizzi. Even Alcides Escobar had some solid seasons. Jeffress has turned into a solid player. Obviously Nelson Cruz was a huge miss. Grisham looked like a stud last year.

 

I was talking top 50 prospects though. I don't think a single of these guys ever was one, at least not in the last decade. Escobar may have been, he was pretty highly touted but he was largely a bust. He played for a long time, that's about the best thing you can say about him. He basically followed the Orlando Arcia trajectory if Arcia never gets better.

 

Most of the real home runs (Woodruff, Burnes) were less touted guys. I didn't include them because I was only talking about the real top prospects of ours this last decade and how they've panned out. But for the same reason I also didn't include Luis Ortiz, Phil Bickford and Jorge Lopez-- 51 to 100 type prospects.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yeah, I don't think there's really anything to Braves prospects being flops. I think you could look through any system and find guys that have been home runs and find some that haven't panned out.

 

Frankly I think our own top 50s have been way more miss than hit. Phillips, Ray, Arcia, Brinson. Hader has been the one real home run in recent memory if we're looking at top 50 guys. Hiura looked to be well on his way but now we're kind of back in wait and see mode.

 

Michael Brantley has worked out very well. Lorenzo Cain. Jake Odorizzi. Even Alcides Escobar had some solid seasons. Jeffress has turned into a solid player. Obviously Nelson Cruz was a huge miss. Grisham looked like a stud last year.

 

I was talking top 50 prospects though. I don't think a single of these guys ever was one, at least not in the last decade. Escobar may have been, he was pretty highly touted but he was largely a bust. He played for a long time, that's about the best thing you can say about him. He basically followed the Orlando Arcia trajectory if Arcia never gets better.

 

Most of the real home runs (Woodruff, Burnes) were less touted guys. I didn't include them because I was only talking about the real top prospects of ours this last decade and how they've panned out. But for the same reason I also didn't include Luis Ortiz, Phil Bickford and Jorge Lopez-- 51 to 100 type prospects.

 

My bad. For some reason I was thinking you were talking about Top 50 Brewers prospects, not Top 50 MLB. I guess my point was that I would be leery of trading with the Braves because the prospects they have dealt the last decade haven't amounted to much of anything. They seem pretty good at identifying the guys they figure will make an impact, while dealing off guys who don't, despite high prospect ratings.

[Eye Black]

Corbin Burnes and obviously Keston Hiura were recent top 50 prospects that hopefully will work out, but to the point I agree that most teams have cases of both.

 

There are certain systems that historically do a better job of promoting their prospects to the publicly available prospect gurus than others. This was the case when AJ Preller was in Texas and appears to be a trait he’s carried with him to the Padres.

[adambr2]

Corbin Burnes and obviously Keston Hiura were recent top 50 prospects that hopefully will work out, but to the point I agree that most teams have cases of both.

 

There are certain systems that historically do a better job of promoting their prospects to the publicly available prospect gurus than others. This was the case when AJ Preller was in Texas and appears to be a trait he’s carried with him to the Padres.

 

Was Burnes a top 50? I know I'm splitting hairs here. I was just thinking him and Woodruff were both lower end top 100 guys.

 

I don't think Lucroy ever cracked the top 100 and he ended up being arguably our best catcher in franchise history.

[trwi7]

Corbin Burnes and obviously Keston Hiura were recent top 50 prospects that hopefully will work out, but to the point I agree that most teams have cases of both.

 

There are certain systems that historically do a better job of promoting their prospects to the publicly available prospect gurus than others. This was the case when AJ Preller was in Texas and appears to be a trait he’s carried with him to the Padres.

 

Was Burnes a top 50? I know I'm splitting hairs here. I was just thinking him and Woodruff were both lower end top 100 guys.

 

I don't think Lucroy ever cracked the top 100 and he ended up being arguably our best catcher in franchise history.

 

He was high 40s to high 60s on various lists.

[Eye Black]

Was Burnes a top 50? I know I'm splitting hairs here. I was just thinking him and Woodruff were both lower end top 100 guys.

Yes, I believe he was still prospect eligible heading into 2019 and was vaulted near the back end of some top 50s.

[JosephC]

Some Braves prospect listing in the top 5 of the organizational list in Baseball Reference Prospect Handbook's since 2008

 

Career bWAR

 

Jason Heyward = 38.4

Freddie Freeman = 38.8

Julio Teheran = 19.4

Mike Minor = 17.8

Craig Kimbrel = 19.4

Andrelton Simmons = 36.8

Ozzie Albies = 11.7 (already 1 All-Star appearances and 1 Silver Slugger which happened in different seasons)

Mike Soroka = 5.7 (one All-Star appearance and 6th place finish in Cy Young voting)

Ronald Acuna = 12.1 (already 3 finishes in the top 12 of MVP voting)

 

That's just picking guys out of the top 5, looking down the list one finds a bunch more guys who have become solid MLB players like Alex Wood, Nick Ahmed, Tommy La Stella. And then there are a few more names that look good but it's too early to tell, one example being Ian Anderson.

 

OK, now do a list of prospects they have traded while they still had prospect status ...

 

I'm looking through the Braves transactions now. And you know what, there aren't very many top guys they have traded away. But you know what else? The Braves just haven't been involved in very many high profile trades over the last few years. I wonder why that is? Probably because their minor league system has been so good over the last decade plus that the team doesn't have to make those high profile trades.

 

After all, even the most motivated trader isn't going to deal away any notable prospects when you are trading for the likes of-

Tommy Malone

Anthony Swarzak

Chris Martin

Shane Greene

Mark Melancon (big contract)

Justin Kelly

Charlie Culberson, Adrian Gonzalez, Scott Kazmir, Brandon McCarthy (in a Matt Kemp swap with the Dodgers that was a big crap contract exchange)

Preston Tucker

Shane Carle

Ryan Schimpf

Carlos Perez

Jonny Venters

Brad Brach

Adam Duvall

Kevin Gausman/Darren O'Day (the Orioles were hot to dump O'Day's contract and Gausman's was running at a 4.60 ERA and 4.52 FIP over his last 55 starts)

Alex Jackson

Tyler Pike

Jamie Garcia (way past his prime)

Luke Jackson

Thomas Burrows

Luiz Gohara

Micah Johnson

Brandon Phillips (way past his prime)

Kevin Franklin

Danny Santana

Matt Adams

Huascar Ynoa

Connor Joe

Tony Sanchez

Justin Kelly

Erick Aybar, Chris Ellis, Sean Newcomb (list these three together because here is where the Braves traded away Simmons)

Ian Krol

Gabe Speier

Jose Ramirez (the pitcher)

Then there was the big trade where they got Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte and Aaron Blair for Shelby Miller and Gabe Speier, probably the last real high profile trade the Braves made that wasn't motivated by contracts and that was on December 9, 2015.

 

And that's where I stop listing every big-time, high-profile player they've acquired by trade while continuing to horde all their own prospects. Yeah, they haven't traded away a young Ronald Acuna, but they haven't been on the markets buying the Christian Yeliches because they don't need to.

 

But even going further back....they traded away Jason Heyward in the deal where they picked up Shelby Miller...they traded away Kimbrel in the deal where they picked up Cameron Maybin (Maybin was still considered an upside "maybe" at the time). Back 7 years and still looking for that opportunity where they could have traded away a big-time prospect and I haven't found it yet. Maybe they should save face by trading Christian Pache and Drew Waters to the Cubs for Zach Davies.

[markedman5]

Rosenthal says Indians aren’t likely to trade him

 

https://theathletic.com/2371326/2021/02/06/rosenthal-nolan-arenado-trade-talk/

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Some Braves prospect listing in the top 5 of the organizational list in Baseball Reference Prospect Handbook's since 2008

 

Career bWAR

 

Jason Heyward = 38.4

Freddie Freeman = 38.8

Julio Teheran = 19.4

Mike Minor = 17.8

Craig Kimbrel = 19.4

Andrelton Simmons = 36.8

Ozzie Albies = 11.7 (already 1 All-Star appearances and 1 Silver Slugger which happened in different seasons)

Mike Soroka = 5.7 (one All-Star appearance and 6th place finish in Cy Young voting)

Ronald Acuna = 12.1 (already 3 finishes in the top 12 of MVP voting)

 

That's just picking guys out of the top 5, looking down the list one finds a bunch more guys who have become solid MLB players like Alex Wood, Nick Ahmed, Tommy La Stella. And then there are a few more names that look good but it's too early to tell, one example being Ian Anderson.

 

OK, now do a list of prospects they have traded while they still had prospect status ...

 

I'm looking through the Braves transactions now. And you know what, there aren't very many top guys they have traded away. But you know what else? The Braves just haven't been involved in very many high profile trades over the last few years. I wonder why that is? Probably because their minor league system has been so good over the last decade plus that the team doesn't have to make those high profile trades.

 

After all, even the most motivated trader isn't going to deal away any notable prospects when you are trading for the likes of-

Tommy Malone

Anthony Swarzak

Chris Martin

Shane Greene

Mark Melancon (big contract)

Justin Kelly

Charlie Culberson, Adrian Gonzalez, Scott Kazmir, Brandon McCarthy (in a Matt Kemp swap with the Dodgers that was a big crap contract exchange)

Preston Tucker

Shane Carle

Ryan Schimpf

Carlos Perez

Jonny Venters

Brad Brach

Adam Duvall

Kevin Gausman/Darren O'Day (the Orioles were hot to dump O'Day's contract and Gausman's was running at a 4.60 ERA and 4.52 FIP over his last 55 starts)

Alex Jackson

Tyler Pike

Jamie Garcia (way past his prime)

Luke Jackson

Thomas Burrows

Luiz Gohara

Micah Johnson

Brandon Phillips (way past his prime)

Kevin Franklin

Danny Santana

Matt Adams

Huascar Ynoa

Connor Joe

Tony Sanchez

Justin Kelly

Erick Aybar, Chris Ellis, Sean Newcomb (list these three together because here is where the Braves traded away Simmons)

Ian Krol

Gabe Speier

Jose Ramirez (the pitcher)

Then there was the big trade where they got Dansby Swanson, Ender Inciarte and Aaron Blair for Shelby Miller and Gabe Speier, probably the last real high profile trade the Braves made that wasn't motivated by contracts and that was on December 9, 2015.

 

And that's where I stop listing every big-time, high-profile player they've acquired by trade while continuing to horde all their own prospects. Yeah, they haven't traded away a young Ronald Acuna, but they haven't been on the markets buying the Christian Yeliches because they don't need to.

 

But even going further back....they traded away Jason Heyward in the deal where they picked up Shelby Miller...they traded away Kimbrel in the deal where they picked up Cameron Maybin (Maybin was still considered an upside "maybe" at the time). Back 7 years and still looking for that opportunity where they could have traded away a big-time prospect and I haven't found it yet. Maybe they should save face by trading Christian Pache and Drew Waters to the Cubs for Zach Davies.

 

Thanks! This is interesting. Makes me think that there's no way they are going to give up a big package for Ramirez. A move like that just isn't in the Braves playbook.

[MadThinker88]

As an fyi...

Braves fans are on twitter today about possible Jose Ramirez deal. It got started by Hector Gomez (who was one of first to break Ozuna signing) replying to a twitter proposed line up for the Braves w Ramirez.

 

HGomez said he hopes Braves can get it done and the deal on table is supposedly for De La Cruz, Waters, Riley and Langeliers ....

He said possible (noting that CLE will listen) but pulling trigger is something else.

---------------------------

 

Personally I don't believe that CLE is motivated to trade JRam.

As a Cleveland fan what are your thoughts on that proposal, MadThinker (regardless of the likelihood, do you think it’s a fair deal)? It seems like Riley and Waters would indeed be the building blocks to any deal with the Braves.

 

Sorry, I thought this was sent out earlier....

 

I dont see it as a fair deal as its a 'quantity for quality' swap & CLE is starting to deal with a numbers game.

 

Being a CLE fan I am aware that there is a rather significant roster crunch coming for CLE over the next 2 years. The farm system is now easily inside the top 10 in baseball (if not top 5) & the fruits of the system (beyond the pitchers) are about to be seen by everyone

 

Earlier in this thread I responded about some ideas that Turang might be a valuable trade piece to head to CLE in a trade for JRam. Again I say Turang is a very good prospect in his own right and to the right team he could be a very good asset coming back in a trade. In the case of CLE Turang would enter a mix with 5 other SS prospects that are either currently (or had been) top 100 prospects in baseball. I understand the idea of depth & redundancy but some point the question becomes why yet another into the area with depth when there are other needs still having to be addressed.

 

IMHO CLE is likely to start combining prospect assets and start making some 3 for 1 and 4 for 2 trades (CLE giving up the prospects & greater numbers) for pieces it deems it needs to continue competing for either a WC berth or Divisional crown..

[adambr2]

Baseballtradevalues.com has the value of Ramirez at almost exactly the same as Urias+Houser+Turang+Mitchell. I would do that in a heartbeat. I am sure the Indians would not.

 

It was the only trade I could come up with that offered enough value with 4 players or less without giving up Hiura, Burnes or Woodruff. I don't really like to go more than 4 because then it just kind of gets kind of ridiculous.

 

I don't think Cleveland is too motivated to move Ramirez, I think it's more of a "blow us away" situation. It's not like he's going to lose much value in a year and they can always revisit trading him then.

[MadThinker88]

Rosenthal says Indians aren’t likely to trade him

 

https://theathletic.com/2371326/2021/02/06/rosenthal-nolan-arenado-trade-talk/

 

For those without Athletic subscription.. (a small relevant part of the article).

 

Why Cleveland is keeping Ramírez

Teams are interested in trading for Indians third baseman José Ramírez, but Cleveland is not interested in moving him, sources say. The Indians, even after trading Lindor, still want to compete in 2021, as evidenced by their recent signing of free-agent outfielder Eddie Rosario to a one-year, $8 million contract. Ramírez, meanwhile, remains one of baseball’s biggest bargains.

 

Executives crave surplus value, the amount by which a player’s production exceeds the amount he is paid. One way to estimate that value is by using FanGraphs’ Dollars metric, which is Wins Above Replacement converted to a dollar scale based on what a player would make in free agency.

[brewcrewdue80]

I think where Atlanta Braves prospects are overrated is on the pitching and catcher side. Feels to me like they've had 3-5 of those types every year in MLB's top 100 since 2012 or 13.

 

I'd really be leery that Mitchell would be traded away considering he's gotta be your CF after Cain leaves on paper. Maybe after 2021 season after he's played some games and maybe some other Brewer CF prospect rises to Starter level future.

[adambr2]

I love Mitchell but if you have a chance to get Jose Ramirez and it requires Garrett Mitchell that is not going to be a deal breaker. You'd make that deal and worry about who eventually replaces Cain later.

[brewcrewdue80]

I love Mitchell but if you have a chance to get Jose Ramirez and it requires Garrett Mitchell that is not going to be a deal breaker. You'd make that deal and worry about who eventually replaces Cain later.

That kind of attitude you'd just go spend on Turner. When Cainçs money comes off the books, the team is going to pinched on some Arbitration contracts. Mitchell being added for CF saves money to address that vs needing to pony up with a FA contract. I'd rather keep what little positive minors we have and pay 3/33.4mil to Turner than give them up and pay Ramirez that amount. Unless your staring down the barrel of a 2year window and plan to tear it down for a rebuild.

 

2years I'm staring at no CF, RF, C, at least one of SS/3b. 3rd or 4th yrs of Arbitration to Hader and Woodruff. No Lindblom. The previous proposal sent Urias and Houser. Turang as well. Youre staring at a lot of holes with no promising 2+WAR prospects coming to fill out needs at minimum. If you do they're likely -.5 to .5WAR. Or dumpster diving even more contracts. Keep in mind the WS champs added 2020 Cy Young Winner Bauer to an already Stellar pitching rotation.

 

Doesn't seem smart to put your team in a 2year window when the team spending the most amount of money loaded with talent young and old is in top form. That's sorta a hill to die on with being fired when you turn in to Melvin spending to be 80win team at best. And yr 4 you tear it down and rebuild.

[reillymcshane]

Corbin Burnes and obviously Keston Hiura were recent top 50 prospects that hopefully will work out, but to the point I agree that most teams have cases of both.

 

There are certain systems that historically do a better job of promoting their prospects to the publicly available prospect gurus than others. This was the case when AJ Preller was in Texas and appears to be a trait he’s carried with him to the Padres.

 

Was Burnes a top 50? I know I'm splitting hairs here. I was just thinking him and Woodruff were both lower end top 100 guys.

I don't think Lucroy ever cracked the top 100 and he ended up being arguably our best catcher in franchise history.

You're not far off.

 

Burnes was #46 on BAs pre-season Top 100 in 2019 (and #74 in 2018).

 

He was #69 and #60 for MLB and Baseball Prospectus prior to 2018 - but never Top 50.

[Eye Black]

Burnes was #46 on BAs pre-season Top 100 in 2019 (and #74 in 2018).

 

He was #69 and #60 for MLB and Baseball Prospectus prior to 2018 - but never Top 50.

Keith Law had Corbin Burnes ranked #38 in his 2017 mid-season list and at #24 on his 2018 preseason list.

[adambr2]

I love Mitchell but if you have a chance to get Jose Ramirez and it requires Garrett Mitchell that is not going to be a deal breaker. You'd make that deal and worry about who eventually replaces Cain later.

That kind of attitude you'd just go spend on Turner. When Cainçs money comes off the books, the team is going to pinched on some Arbitration contracts. Mitchell being added for CF saves money to address that vs needing to pony up with a FA contract. I'd rather keep what little positive minors we have and pay 3/33.4mil to Turner than give them up and pay Ramirez that amount. Unless your staring down the barrel of a 2year window and plan to tear it down for a rebuild.

 

2years I'm staring at no CF, RF, C, at least one of SS/3b. 3rd or 4th yrs of Arbitration to Hader and Woodruff. No Lindblom. The previous proposal sent Urias and Houser. Turang as well. Youre staring at a lot of holes with no promising 2+WAR prospects coming to fill out needs at minimum. If you do they're likely -.5 to .5WAR. Or dumpster diving even more contracts. Keep in mind the WS champs added 2020 Cy Young Winner Bauer to an already Stellar pitching rotation.

 

Doesn't seem smart to put your team in a 2year window when the team spending the most amount of money loaded with talent young and old is in top form. That's sorta a hill to die on with being fired when you turn in to Melvin spending to be 80win team at best. And yr 4 you tear it down and rebuild.

 

First, Ramirez is under control for 3 years, not 2.

 

Mitchell has not played a day of professional baseball. We don't even know if he will ever make the big leagues much less be certain that he's our future replacement for Cain.

 

I think you're undervaluing just how good Ramirez is. He's a near Yelich level acquisition and not all that expensive. Mitchell is a good, not elite prospect.

 

I'm fine with getting Turner instead because I don't think Ramirez is really available. I don't think 3/33 is getting it done or he'd probably already be a Brewer.