Jose Ramirez

[adambr2]

I don't understand why Hader is getting thrown into these trade scenarios for Ramirez. The Indians just turned down paying 9M to Brad Hand, so they're obviously looking to shed costs. They're looking at a younger package if they trade Ramirez. Hiura makes sense for them. Hader really doesn't. In addition Hader isn't really a valuable enough trade chip where you couldn't just use a decent farm piece instead of Josh. It's like he's just being thrown into these because we've listened to offers on him when really someone like Mitchell or Turang makes a lot more sense for both sides and probably has similar surplus value.

 

Plus if you acquire Ramirez you're trying to win these next few years...you don't really start that by selling off your best reliever when you don't need to.

[wallus]

Hader is getting used to get prospects for the Indians, makes perfect sense. The bullpen is an area of strength we can afford to deal from. Although we have years of control for Josh, he will very soon be too expensive for us.

[Warning Track Power]

Why are the Indians trying to move Ramirez again?

 

He's under contract this year for $9.4m and has a team option in 2022 for $11m and 2023 for $13m or 3 years $33.4m for MVP level production in his prime (age 28-30 seasons). Sure they traded Lindor but that was only because they weren't giving him a $300m deal. They still have Bieber, Civale, Plesac and McKenzie in their rotation and Ramirez, Franmil Reyes and just signed Eddie Rosario in their lineup.

 

They seem somewhat like contenders, maybe not for the division with the Twins and White Sox, but certainly the Wild Card with that pitching. What am I missing?

[wallus]

Why are the Indians trying to move Ramirez again?

 

He's under contract this year for $9.4m and has a team option in 2022 for $11m and 2023 for $13m or 3 years $33.4m for MVP level production in his prime (age 28-30 seasons). Sure they traded Lindor but that was only because they weren't giving him a $300m deal. They still have Bieber, Civale, Plesac and McKenzie in their rotation and Ramirez, Franmil Reyes and just signed Eddie Rosario in their lineup.

 

They seem somewhat like contenders, maybe not for the division with the Twins and White Sox, but certainly the Wild Card with that pitching. What am I missing?

 

A guy like Hiura (as well as potential prospects) match up much better with Cleveland's next competitive window. They are, at best, the 3rd best team in their division as it stands.

[MadThinker88]

Why are the Indians trying to move Ramirez again?

 

He's under contract this year for $9.4m and has a team option in 2022 for $11m and 2023 for $13m or 3 years $33.4m for MVP level production in his prime (age 28-30 seasons). Sure they traded Lindor but that was only because they weren't giving him a $300m deal. They still have Bieber, Civale, Plesac and McKenzie in their rotation and Ramirez, Franmil Reyes and just signed Eddie Rosario in their lineup.

 

They seem somewhat like contenders, maybe not for the division with the Twins and White Sox, but certainly the Wild Card with that pitching. What am I missing?

 

And brought back Cesar Hernandez (AL gold glove at 2B & led MLB in doubles for 2020).

2020 was a dogfight in the AL central as 1 game separated 1st & 3rd place. I suspect more of the same in 2021.

[MadThinker88]

I don't understand why Hader is getting thrown into these trade scenarios for Ramirez. The Indians just turned down paying 9M to Brad Hand, so they're obviously looking to shed costs. They're looking at a younger package if they trade Ramirez. Hiura makes sense for them. Hader really doesn't. In addition Hader isn't really a valuable enough trade chip where you couldn't just use a decent farm piece instead of Josh. It's like he's just being thrown into these because we've listened to offers on him when really someone like Mitchell or Turang makes a lot more sense for both sides and probably has similar surplus value.

 

Plus if you acquire Ramirez you're trying to win these next few years...you don't really start that by selling off your best reliever when you don't need to.

 

I don't believe Mitchell & Turang would be seen the same way in CLE.

 

Mitchell - Yes CLE would be interested.

Turang - Not as much value to CLE as they have 5 other options to sort thru for SS in 2021/ 2022/ 2023. Those options being: Amed Rosario/ Andres Gimenez/ Gabriel Arias/ Tyler Freeman/ Brayan Rocchio

 

Note: the 1st 3 of that grouping already on the 40 man & the last 2 due for R5 protection after the 2021 season.

[adambr2]

Hader is getting used to get prospects for the Indians, makes perfect sense. The bullpen is an area of strength we can afford to deal from. Although we have years of control for Josh, he will very soon be too expensive for us.

 

An area of strength? Devin Williams and who?? It is a weak pen without Hader.

 

If Hader was able to be used to get solid prospects we probably would have already done that ourselves.

 

And if Josh Hader is too expensive for us to keep, we had better forget about Ramirez because we're not affording much of anyone to put around him. If we can afford 18M over the next 2 years for Kolton Wong we can certainly afford 15M or so over the same period for Josh Hader.

[wallus]

Hader is getting used to get prospects for the Indians, makes perfect sense. The bullpen is an area of strength we can afford to deal from. Although we have years of control for Josh, he will very soon be too expensive for us.

 

An area of strength? Devin Williams and who?? It is a weak pen without Hader.

 

If Hader was able to be used to get solid prospects we probably would have already done that ourselves.

 

And if Josh Hader is too expensive for us to keep, we had better forget about Ramirez because we're not affording much of anyone to put around him. If we can afford 18M over the next 2 years for Kolton Wong we can certainly afford 15M or so over the same period for Josh Hader.

 

Peralta, Suter, Williams, Rasmussen, Yardley is a decent pen even without Hader.

 

We don't have anyone near the level of Ramirez that can play 3rd. We have some decent replacements to take over for Josh. It's pretty simple.

[Dadbauer]

 

An area of strength? Devin Williams and who?? It is a weak pen without Hader.

 

 

Bullpens don't need to be full of all-stars to be considered an area of strength. Not many bullpens have anything close to a one-two of Hader and Williams. Suter has been very good in the past, Peralta shows an enourmous upside, Rasmussen and Topa could take big steps and have a lot of tools, etc. Stearns has a track record of finding young pitchers who take big steps each year.

[adambr2]

Yes, it's a very good pen with Hader. It's got a ton of question marks without him.

 

Yardley, Suter, Rasmussen, etc...these guys are not "replacing" Josh Hader. Yardley is a journeyman with 35 career innings at the big league level. Rasmussen has 15 innings above AA and got shelled at the MLB level last year. Justin Topa? Really?

 

All these guys have live arms, yes. Hoping you can get a breakout season from one of them is one thing. Counting on them to be a "replacement" for Josh Hader is entirely another. The list of live arms with great stuff who never amount to anything at this level is a long list. This reminds me of the Ray Black hype from last year.

[brewcrewdue80]

As much as I would love to add Ramirez, I feel like it would make more sense to keep Hiura since he is so cheap and throw him at first and just go out and sign Turner to a 3/$40 million contract or so. You don’t lengthen the lineup by trading away Hiura to bring in Ramirez and the cost of Hiura + Turner is basically the same as just Ramirez. Just something to think about. We would still have a big question mark at first if we moved Hiura.

 

Wong/Cain

Yelich

Turner

Hiura

Narvaez

Wong/Cain

Garcia

Urias/Arcia

P

 

I can get behind that!

 

That is making the rather big assumption, though, that Turner is agreeable to a deal with the Brewers, and his agent isn't simply using the Brewers' supposed interest in an effort to squeeze an extra couple million out of the Dodgers. For how great the Dodgers lineup is, they still have a question mark at 3B, and if they don't make a move on a guy like Ramirez or Kris Bryant, re-upping with Turner makes a lot of sense for them.

 

Let's just toss adding Wong improves Milw and maybe was something that was needed to entice Turner to Milw seeing the team more competitive.

 

Not a fan of trading assets for J Ram when signing Turner for equal amount of money solves the problem.

[adambr2]

I like Turner but Ramirez is just flat out better, and it doesn't hurt that he's a switch hitter. He'll cost a lot less money (don't see any way Turner is available for 3/35) and most importantly for a multi-year deal, Ramirez isn't 36 years old.

[wallus]

As much as I would love to add Ramirez, I feel like it would make more sense to keep Hiura since he is so cheap and throw him at first and just go out and sign Turner to a 3/$40 million contract or so. You don’t lengthen the lineup by trading away Hiura to bring in Ramirez and the cost of Hiura + Turner is basically the same as just Ramirez. Just something to think about. We would still have a big question mark at first if we moved Hiura.

 

Wong/Cain

Yelich

Turner

Hiura

Narvaez

Wong/Cain

Garcia

Urias/Arcia

P

 

I can get behind that!

 

That is making the rather big assumption, though, that Turner is agreeable to a deal with the Brewers, and his agent isn't simply using the Brewers' supposed interest in an effort to squeeze an extra couple million out of the Dodgers. For how great the Dodgers lineup is, they still have a question mark at 3B, and if they don't make a move on a guy like Ramirez or Kris Bryant, re-upping with Turner makes a lot of sense for them.

 

Let's just toss adding Wong improves Milw and maybe was something that was needed to entice Turner to Milw seeing the team more competitive.

 

Not a fan of trading assets for J Ram when signing Turner for equal amount of money solves the problem.

 

I could get behind Turner for 2 years but I think he will want 3+. I also am worried about him declining because of age.

[Eye Black]

Reminder that in addition to some of the potential pieces mentioned the Brewers also have the #32 overall pick in the 2021 MLB Draft (likely to be bumped down to selection #33 if Bauer signs a multi-year deal) that they can trade as well.

[titletownking]

I’m all in on the Ramirez train. Hiura, Small and Feliciano should be close. I would also like to see the team sign Hill to balance out the rotation and then we got ourselves a damn fine ball club. That lineup with our aces leading the rotation and the best bullpen in the NL.

[brewerfan82]

I'm in. Trade Hiura+++ for Ramirez, sign Cron and let's get this season started!

 

2018-20 vs. RHP:

 

2018-20 vs LHP:

[trwi7]

I’m all in on the Ramirez train. Hiura, Small and Feliciano should be close.

 

I don't think this is close at all.

[Eye Black]

Jose Ramirez is one of the few players I wouldn’t blink at trading Hiura and the upper echelon of the minor league system to acquire. He would solidify this team as the legitimate favorite to win the NL Central and give them a chance to threaten a serious playoff run. With good pitching already in place and Yelich hopefully in the prime of his career, Ramirez would be the perfect addition for this roster.

[Lathund]

I just don't think Cleveland are particularly motivated to move Ramirez. They're not in teardown mode. They want to save money, but Ramirez is extremely cheap for what he is; an MVP-caliber player in his prime. And they already have cut payroll significantly through the other moves they made, so even as cheap as they are they're not financially motivated to move him. I also think people are perhaps underestimating what it would take to get him considering the 3 cheap years remaining. I like the idea of Hader (In a 3-way trade or separately) being used to get some prospect capital for a potential move tho.

 

Again though, I don't think it's realistic. If he was available, the Dodgers could just outbid us and it still wouldn't hurt their farm nearly as much as it would ours. So many teams would be interested, and Cleveland could turn it into a bidding war.

[Eye Black]

I just don't think Cleveland are particularly motivated to move Ramirez. They're not in teardown mode. They want to save money, but Ramirez is extremely cheap for what he is; an MVP-caliber player in his prime. And they already have cut payroll significantly through the other moves they made, so even as cheap as they are they're not financially motivated to move him. I also think people are perhaps underestimating what it would take to get him considering the 3 cheap years remaining. I like the idea of Hader (In a 3-way trade or separately) being used to get some prospect capital for a potential move tho.

 

Again though, I don't think it's realistic. If he was available, the Dodgers could just outbid us and it still wouldn't hurt their farm nearly as much as it would ours. So many teams would be interested, and Cleveland could turn it into a bidding war.

I don’t disagree with anything you said, but it’s still not going to stop me from daydreaming about the possibility for a couple more weeks.

[Madhawk23]

I just don't think Cleveland are particularly motivated to move Ramirez. They're not in teardown mode. They want to save money, but Ramirez is extremely cheap for what he is; an MVP-caliber player in his prime. And they already have cut payroll significantly through the other moves they made, so even as cheap as they are they're not financially motivated to move him. I also think people are perhaps underestimating what it would take to get him considering the 3 cheap years remaining. I like the idea of Hader (In a 3-way trade or separately) being used to get some prospect capital for a potential move tho.

 

Again though, I don't think it's realistic. If he was available, the Dodgers could just outbid us and it still wouldn't hurt their farm nearly as much as it would ours. So many teams would be interested, and Cleveland could turn it into a bidding war.

 

As much as I want Ramirez, I agree with this take 100%. IF the Indians really did want to move Ramirez right now, then I just don't see any way that we'd win any type of a bidding war for him - as other teams with deeper farm systems (looking at the Braves and Dodgers for sure) would easily out-bid us. It would take a haul similar to what we gave up for Yelich (three Top 100 guys) to get three years of Ramirez on a very team friendly contract.

 

Honestly, to get the conversation started with the Indians - we'd probably have to offer up Hiura, Mitchell AND Turang. And, that may not even be enough to beat another team's return package?

[JosephC]

Trading Hiura now seems like it would be an awful sell low move. Pro-rate his 114 days of service time in 2019 to a full season, and pro-rate 2020 to a full season, and he was a +3.2 bWAR/fWAR player in 2019 but fell to a -0.3 bWAR/fWAR player in 2020. Right now it's probably safe to say a good chunk of the league view him as a 1.5-2 WAR player per season, I think his value really goes up with another strong year with the bat and getting his awful defense off of second base.

 

I'd put Hiura's surplus value at +47.6 and the BaseballTradeValues site has him at +42.4, so we are pretty close.

 

I have Jose Ramirez's surplus value at +93 million. Average my number and BaseballTradeValues number and his surplus value is +82.9 million. That's probably a pretty fair number.

 

I'd put Hiura + Small + Feliciano at +66.3 so it's getting close to being enough for Ramirez, but I still think it falls short.

 

I think Hiura + Garrett Mitchell + Ethan Small + Luis Medina would be a pretty fair deal.

[JosephC]

It's worth noting that on January 31 the BaseballTradeValue's site has Ramirez as having +72.8 million in surplus value. I just looked at their site and they've up'ed it to +81.3 million. So clearly the Ramirez talk made them circle back and re-do the math on him. I have him at +93, so now if you take the average between my number and their number it's move up from +82.9 million to +87.15 million.

 

I'll amend my earlier proposal and suggest that Hiura + Garrett Mitchell + Ethan Small + Luis Medina + Nick Kahle would be a pretty fair deal.

 

I wouldn't do any of these deals as I hate the idea of selling low on Hiura.

[MadThinker88]

As an fyi...

Braves fans are on twitter today about possible Jose Ramirez deal. It got started by Hector Gomez (who was one of first to break Ozuna signing) replying to a twitter proposed line up for the Braves w Ramirez.

 

HGomez said he hopes Braves can get it done and the deal on table is supposedly for De La Cruz, Waters, Riley and Langeliers ....

He said possible (noting that CLE will listen) but pulling trigger is something else.

---------------------------

 

Personally I don't believe that CLE is motivated to trade JRam (before the start of the 2021 season).

[Eye Black]

As an fyi...

Braves fans are on twitter today about possible Jose Ramirez deal. It got started by Hector Gomez (who was one of first to break Ozuna signing) replying to a twitter proposed line up for the Braves w Ramirez.

 

HGomez said he hopes Braves can get it done and the deal on table is supposedly for De La Cruz, Waters, Riley and Langeliers ....

He said possible (noting that CLE will listen) but pulling trigger is something else.

---------------------------

 

Personally I don't believe that CLE is motivated to trade JRam.

As a Cleveland fan what are your thoughts on that proposal, MadThinker (regardless of the likelihood, do you think it’s a fair deal)? It seems like Riley and Waters would indeed be the building blocks to any deal with the Braves.