Packer 2021 Team Discussion (Rodgers Out Vs. Chiefs)

[HiAndTight]

Obviously being over his head as a DC and more suited to be a position coach is MY opinion. We'll see. It seems like it to me. I know I can't say it for sure. But it's a really uninspiring hire.

 

And I don't know how you can compare it to Lafleur. Lafleur was unproven in this gig. Barry has had shots. Yeah, the Lions stunk. But you'd like to have a little better accolades for your new DC than to say, "Well, his players stunk. What do you expect?"

 

Washington's defense was not THAT bad. He had Kerrigan. He had Preston Smith. He had Josh Norman. He had Breeland. To say there was very little talent on that D just isn't really accurate.

 

He still had the worst 3rd down defense in football and couldn't stop the run a lick.

 

I hope it works out. But I hate the hire.

 

 

I can compare it too LaFleur because people made the same complaint when he came in.

 

And yes, Washington had VERY little talent on defense. You're using Bashaud Breeland to help make your argument.....which I kinda think makes mine.

 

Good enough to start for a team that won the Super Bowl last year but not good enough to use as an example of the talent that Barry had to work with?

 

Breeland is solid. He's head and shoulders better than Kevin King as a #2 corner. If you'll downplay him as a good player that Barry had to work with than nothing I say will convince you otherwise.

 

 

Yeah, their 3rd best CB on a team that's known for winning through their defense, right? He was SO great...he signed with GB for the minimum and then signed back to back 1 year deals with KC. Doesn't exactly sound like a premium talent, does it?

 

And no, he's not "Head and shoulders" better than King. Really leaning into the hyperbole though.

[adambr2]

"Passionate" and "energetic" and "aggressive" sounds like total coach-speak to me. All coaches at this level are passionate. Do you ever hear people around the league describe a coach by saying, "he's kind of apathetic and lifeless."?

 

I remember Ron Zook being described as "piss and vinegar", whatever that means. None of it means much. What do they mean by aggressive? His units are in the bottom half of the league typically in blitzing, so it's not that. Maybe it could be aggressive in the sense of attempting to force fumbles, but we've been emphasizing that ever since the Ed Donatell days.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Come on guys. Bashaud Breeland? He's been a replacement-level DB even at his best.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

"Passionate" and "energetic" and "aggressive" sounds like total coach-speak to me. All coaches at this level are passionate. Do you ever hear people around the league describe a coach by saying, "he's kind of apathetic and lifeless."?

 

I remember Ron Zook being described as "piss and vinegar", whatever that means. None of it means much. What do they mean by aggressive? His units are in the bottom half of the league typically in blitzing, so it's not that. Maybe it could be aggressive in the sense of attempting to force fumbles, but we've been emphasizing that ever since the Ed Donatell days.

 

Correct. Forgive me for trying to find a silver lining in the Barry hire. Not a fan of it, but I don't want to get all hot and bothered about it, either. Not in February at least. Hopefully he does something next season to show why Lafleur and the Packers have faith in him.

[HiAndTight]

So what you guys are saying is that Barry was dealt a poor hand with both his DC opportunities, but failed to gain any ground in the poker game. I would say that, given the talent he inherits on the defensive side of the ball in GB, he's been dealt a very good hand now. Let's see if that improves his poker playing ability. I will say that when his former players are asked to give an assessment on him, the words "passionate" and "aggressive" continue to come up. That gives me at least some hope, although I'm still not a fan of the hire.

 

 

I would say he was dealt more than just a bad hand in Detroit...more like a 2-7 off suit.

 

And Washington was maybe a 2-7 suited?

 

If he fails with the Packers, then he's not a good coach. The talent is there. I think we saw that last year in spite of Pettine they were pretty solid. Particularly as the year went on.

 

I'm also not a fan of the hire in particular, but I was only going to be a fan if I knew much about the guy they were hiring. Since Leonard turned them down...

[adambr2]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

[adambr2]

Come on guys. Bashaud Breeland? He's been a replacement-level DB even at his best.

 

Just not true. At his worst? Sure. His best has been far better than that.

 

Guy has some definite off the field issues that have cost him some money. But he's been a good starting corner at his best.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

 

The Packers front office makes mistakes, but they aren't idiots. If Breeland was better than King, he would have been on the field against Tampa a couple weeks ago, not Buffalo. The Packers grabbed him in in 2018 because they were desperately thin at CB, and he ended up playing ok. They didn't resign him because they deemed him not better than what they already had coming back in 2019, despite the fact that they could have gotten him on a cheap deal. He signed a 1-year, $5 million deal in 2019, and after finding a cold market, resigned an even cheaper 1-year, $4.5 million deal for 2020. That is pocket change for a veteran DB. It would be one thing if it was only the Packers that were missing the boat on the guy, but literally the whole league could have had the guy 3 years in a row now, and for the most part, they've passed. That tells me all I need to know. He's ok. That's it.

[HiAndTight]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

 

 

Yeah, they voided it because he had a cut on his foot.

 

Doesn't seem like they were really all that eager to ensure he became a part of their organization. If anything, it sounds like they realized they'd overpaid and it was an excuse for them to back out. Probably the reason they weren't back in on him when his foot was healed up?

 

Or why he's signed for 1 year deals the past two seasons.

 

 

But would you maybe like to provide some context for the Chiefs Super Bowls wins?

 

They have this guy at QB who is REALLY good. And they've got lots of players on offense who are REALLY good. They haven't won because of their defense.

 

Yet you're trying to say because a guy plays on that defense, that somehow proves your point that he's a talented player? He hasn't been better than King and this conversation has veered off into the totally ridiculous now.

[adambr2]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

 

The Packers front office makes mistakes, but they aren't idiots. If Breeland was better than King, he would have been on the field against Tampa a couple weeks ago, not Buffalo. The Packers grabbed him in in 2018 because they were desperately thin at CB, and he ended up playing ok. They didn't resign him because they deemed him not better than what they already had coming back in 2019, despite the fact that they could have gotten him on a cheap deal. He signed a 1-year, $5 million deal in 2019, and after finding a cold market, resigned an even cheaper 1-year, $4.5 million deal for 2020. That is pocket change for a veteran DB. It would be one thing if it was only the Packers that were missing the boat on the guy, but literally the whole league could have had the guy 3 years in a row now, and for the most part, they've passed. That tells me all I need to know. He's ok. That's it.

 

I think anyone would have been better than Kevin King on the field against Tampa a couple weeks ago. So yes, that does seem to have been a big mistake.

 

He was PFFs #14 corner this year in yards per snap against outside coverage. Yes, at his worst, he's not been good. But at his best he's certainly been far better than replacement level, which is what you said.

 

I am not saying he should have been brought back to Green Bay, we thought we had a pretty decent CB room. But the Packers FO is not immune to bad moves, and the coaching staff is not immune to bad moves. Maybe Josh Jackson should have had more opportunities. We'll never know.

[adambr2]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

 

 

Yeah, they voided it because he had a cut on his foot.

 

Doesn't seem like they were really all that eager to ensure he became a part of their organization. If anything, it sounds like they realized they'd overpaid and it was an excuse for them to back out. Probably the reason they weren't back in on him when his foot was healed up?

 

Or why he's signed for 1 year deals the past two seasons.

 

 

But would you maybe like to provide some context for the Chiefs Super Bowls wins?

 

They have this guy at QB who is REALLY good. And they've got lots of players on offense who are REALLY good. They haven't won because of their defense.

 

Yet you're trying to say because a guy plays on that defense, that somehow proves your point that he's a talented player? He hasn't been better than King and this conversation has veered off into the totally ridiculous now.

 

In 2020, yes Breeland was better. Absolutely.

 

We also have a QB and offense that is really good, so I'm not really sure what your point is there in comparing to King. Definitely the Chiefs have won on the strength of their offense. But their corner play has been just fine, even a positive.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2020-secondary-rankings

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

H/T, do you want to provide context behind Breeland's cheap deals, or just use sarcasm and condescension to prove your point?

 

Breeland originally got 8M a year from Carolina on a multi year deal. It was voided because of a failed physical. He had to settle for a cheap multi year deal because of this and off the field issues haven't helped. But he's a good, talented corner. He's been a consistently high rated corner by PFF.

 

And yes, he's much better than King. That's not saying much, and if you feel head and shoulders is hyperbole, go ahead and use whatever term you'd like, but he's better.

 

The Packers front office makes mistakes, but they aren't idiots. If Breeland was better than King, he would have been on the field against Tampa a couple weeks ago, not Buffalo. The Packers grabbed him in in 2018 because they were desperately thin at CB, and he ended up playing ok. They didn't resign him because they deemed him not better than what they already had coming back in 2019, despite the fact that they could have gotten him on a cheap deal. He signed a 1-year, $5 million deal in 2019, and after finding a cold market, resigned an even cheaper 1-year, $4.5 million deal for 2020. That is pocket change for a veteran DB. It would be one thing if it was only the Packers that were missing the boat on the guy, but literally the whole league could have had the guy 3 years in a row now, and for the most part, they've passed. That tells me all I need to know. He's ok. That's it.

 

I think anyone would have been better than Kevin King on the field against Tampa a couple weeks ago. So yes, that does seem to have been a big mistake.

 

He was PFFs #14 corner this year in yards per snap against outside coverage. Yes, at his worst, he's not been good. But at his best he's certainly been far better than replacement level, which is what you said.

 

I am not saying he should have been brought back to Green Bay, we thought we had a pretty decent CB room. But the Packers FO is not immune to bad moves, and the coaching staff is not immune to bad moves. Maybe Josh Jackson should have had more opportunities. We'll never know.

 

What are you arguing? The literally began my post by saying "the Packers front office makes mistakes, but they aren't idiots". If you want to say that not re-signing Breeland was a mistake, fine ... but that also means that every other team in the league has made the same mistake multiple times over the last 3 seasons. That seems much less likely, IMO.

 

I view Breeland's skill level the same way I viewed a player like Davon House in his prime. He's a nominal starter at best. He's the type you can get away with as a #2 CB if you have a stud on the other side, or I suppose in the Chiefs case, an offense that can simply outscore everyone. His skill level is probably similar to a Kevin King. King has more raw talent, but Breeland is more consistent.

[HiAndTight]

In 2020, yes Breeland was better. Absolutely.

 

We also have a QB and offense that is really good, so I'm not really sure what your point is there in comparing to King. Definitely the Chiefs have won on the strength of their offense. But their corner play has been just fine, even a positive.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2020-secondary-rankings

 

 

My point, which I've made several times now, is saying that he had Bashaud Breeland on his team, a player that is on a SB team, so he obviously had some talent, isn't the strongest argument for the talent he had in Washington.

 

Coming off that big Super Bowl Win the Chiefs signed Breeland for 1 year and 3 million. Further proof that he's not exactly viewed as a core piece on a defensive unit.

 

 

I don't see how the Packers offense is in any way relevant to the defensive talent that Barry had 5 years ago in Washington. It IS directly relevant to Breeland getting his ring however.

[adambr2]

I guess I assumed when you said "replacement level DB at his best" I was assuming you meant a 4th or 5th corner who was borderline rosterable and I disagreed with that and think he's been quite a bit better than that at his best. That's all. My mistake if that's not what you were saying.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I guess I assumed when you said "replacement level DB at his best" I was assuming you meant a 4th or 5th corner who was borderline rosterable and I disagreed with that and think he's been quite a bit better than that at his best. That's all. My mistake if that's not what you were saying.

 

Suppose I should have said "replacement-level starting DB". Sorry for the confusion.

[adambr2]

In 2020, yes Breeland was better. Absolutely.

 

We also have a QB and offense that is really good, so I'm not really sure what your point is there in comparing to King. Definitely the Chiefs have won on the strength of their offense. But their corner play has been just fine, even a positive.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2020-secondary-rankings

 

 

My point, which I've made several times now, is saying that he had Bashaud Breeland on his team, a player that is on a SB team, so he obviously had some talent, isn't the strongest argument for the talent he had in Washington.

 

Coming off that big Super Bowl Win the Chiefs signed Breeland for 1 year and 3 million. Further proof that he's not exactly viewed as a core piece on a defensive unit.

 

 

I don't see how the Packers offense is in any way relevant to the defensive talent that Barry had 5 years ago in Washington. It IS directly relevant to Breeland getting his ring however.

 

Yet he continued to be a core piece on a defensive unit in 2020.

 

I just don't think a contract is necessarily a great indicator of talent. You know as well as I do that other things than talent go into a contract and Breeland has had his fair share of off the field issues that certainly factor into his market.

 

To the point on Barry, I think it's fair to say this will definitely be his most talented unit and it's fair to wait and see what he can do with that talent. But we also assumed talent alone would be enough with Pettine, and it wasn't. I wanted a DC hire who I felt could get the most schematically out of our talent, and not just have to rely on our talent alone.

 

I'm sure this is unfair but after Shawn Mennenga turned out to be such a huge whiff I am a little more skeptical than I otherwise would be about his next handpicked guy.

[HiAndTight]

Yet he continued to be a core piece on a defensive unit in 2020.

 

I just don't think a contract is necessarily a great indicator of talent. You know as well as I do that other things than talent go into a contract and Breeland has had his fair share of off the field issues that certainly factor into his market.

 

To the point on Barry, I think it's fair to say this will definitely be his most talented unit and it's fair to wait and see what he can do with that talent. But we also assumed talent alone would be enough with Pettine, and it wasn't. I wanted a DC hire who I felt could get the most schematically out of our talent, and not just have to rely on our talent alone.

 

I'm sure this is unfair but after Shawn Mennenga turned out to be such a huge whiff I am a little more skeptical than I otherwise would be about his next handpicked guy.

 

 

The only off-field issues I know of with regard to Breeland were from the last off-season after he re-signed with the Chiefs.

[harrydalton]

How is Barry better than Jerry Gray?

[yourout]

Not exactly an inspiring hire.

[balsamlaker]

One of the keys to the Rams success this year was not giving up "Explosive Plays" on defense. This is an area Pettine's defense improved greatly from 2019 to 2020. Staley's defense (and Fangio's in Denver) plays heavy zone with initial two-deep looks, but often shifting to cover-3 or cover-4. Similar to Pettine's defense, Staley preferred to go "light in the box", but one the differences is Staley tended to do it with larger personnel (linebackers instead of dbs).

[patrickgpe]

How is Barry better than Jerry Gray?

He is not. Personally I would have hired Evero or Gray based on what I read.

Walter football was not a fan of the hire, although his assessment is full of hot takery.

https://walterfootball.com/coachfirehire.php

[PeaveyFury]

How is Barry better than Jerry Gray?

He is not. Personally I would have hired Evero or Gray based on what I read.

Walter football was not a fan of the hire, although his assessment is full of hot takery.

https://walterfootball.com/coachfirehire.php

 

Walter has also hated our drafts under Gute, and that hasn’t worked out well for Walter...

[balsamlaker]

I will give "Walter" credit that they gave the LaFleur hire an "A", but the same offseason gave the Hackett hire a "C+" and the Gase hire an "A+". Only time will tell. Chances are right now Barry won't be as bad as "Packer fans" think at this time and Evero or Harris or someone else probably won't be as good initially as a DC as "Packer fans" think at this time.

 

Soon "fans" will be moving on to being upset about who doesn't come back or the upcoming draft. If LaFleur and co. are using analytics in the front office as much as he is on the field, it would be hard to imagine them giving a soon-to-be 30 y/o center with a history of back concerns a long-term contract or a running back entering his age-27 season the standard 4 year / $50 million contract that other backs are getting. "Going for it" may be putting the franchise tag on Jones and having him play on the one-year deal!

[PeaveyFury]

I've kind of laid low over the past couple of weeks with regard to Packer news/commentary just because that seems most healthy (for me at least)after a loss like the NFC Championship, but a couple of thoughts this morning, as we enter a new offseason:

 

I think this is an important offseason for very clear reasons. Obviously, the NFL setting the cap is a big piece, though I expect the Packers to start making moves that will help them regardless. I'd be stunned if an Adams extension isn't announced by the combine. But, it should be interesting to watch things unfold. This team needs to smartly address a few issues, as I think we all agree that there are some holes to fill, but that in filling them this team is again a legit Super Bowl contender.

 

I really don't know what to think about the Barry hire. Most of us felt the same way two years ago with Hackett, and that has proven to be a fantastic hire, so MLF probably deserves some benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, it's really hard not to look at that resume and think A)there's experience, which can be viewed as a plus, but B)the results yielded by that experience were very poor, and C)those results came at two poooooorly run franchises. Hackett had similar issues with B & C, so hopefully the results are as positive in Green Bay.

 

Anyway, despite the overwhelming disappointment of not playing yesterday, I think this is a bright, exciting off season that I am very much looking forward to.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I've kind of laid low over the past couple of weeks with regard to Packer news/commentary just because that seems most healthy (for me at least)after a loss like the NFC Championship, but a couple of thoughts this morning, as we enter a new offseason:

 

I think this is an important offseason for very clear reasons. Obviously, the NFL setting the cap is a big piece, though I expect the Packers to start making moves that will help them regardless. I'd be stunned if an Adams extension isn't announced by the combine. But, it should be interesting to watch things unfold. This team needs to smartly address a few issues, as I think we all agree that there are some holes to fill, but that in filling them this team is again a legit Super Bowl contender.

 

I really don't know what to think about the Barry hire. Most of us felt the same way two years ago with Hackett, and that has proven to be a fantastic hire, so MLF probably deserves some benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, it's really hard not to look at that resume and think A)there's experience, which can be viewed as a plus, but B)the results yielded by that experience were very poor, and C)those results came at two poooooorly run franchises. Hackett had similar issues with B & C, so hopefully the results are as positive in Green Bay.

 

Anyway, despite the overwhelming disappointment of not playing yesterday, I think this is a bright, exciting off season that I am very much looking forward to.

 

I agree. I think this is the year they make some moves that could potentially be termed as "go for it" type moves. I expect them to find a way to grab a legit #2 WR and a run-stuffing DE in free agency or through a trade. I expect them to target CB and OT early in the 2021 draft. I also think we'll see a handful of ring-chaser type veterans signed as well. I fully expect the front office to take some chances, knowing full well they have a Super Bowl contender. I don't think they felt that way last year, and the moves they made in both free agency and in the draft bore that out.