2021 Misc. MLB News

[PeaveyFury]

I really can't view that 2018 situation and their moves as anything other than mismanagement. They traded significant assets for players who, especially in Archer's case, had significant questions about them, and all to chase a pipedream chance at the playoffs. They undoubtedly bungled away some of their window as a result.

[Jopal78]

I really can't view that 2018 situation and their moves as anything other than mismanagement. They traded significant assets for players who, especially in Archer's case, had significant questions about them, and all to chase a pipedream chance at the playoffs. They undoubtedly bungled away some of their window as a result.

 

Of course, any trade that doesn't work out in hindsight looks like a boneheaded move by the front office. Fact is, Archer was a #1 starter when the Pirates acquired him in 2018 with a team friendly contract running through 2021. 3.46 FIP, 1.214 WHIP, 9.7 K/9, and 3.3 SO/W . I don't know if there were questions about Archer's ability or health when he was traded.

 

Yeah, they gave up a lot to get Archer but #1 starters in their 20s with long-term team friendly contracts don't become available very often, and I think the Pirates "window" had already closed when they made this deal, they were coming off consecutive 85+ Loss seasons and had dealt McCutcheon and Cole.

 

It was more of a deal to add a long term piece then a rental for the stretch run, but then Archer suffered a major arm injury a year after being sent to Pittsburgh and he has yet to make it all the way back.

 

Cole was a good pitcher and Pittsburgh wasn't going to give him 300 million dollars, so they traded him (The Brewers will most likely do the same thing in a few years with Woodruff and Burnes). They got two player who plugged right into their major league team. Maybe if they hung onto Cole longer they could have gotten a better prospect who wasn't MLB ready, or a package of highly touted low level minor leaguers, but that's all speculation.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think the point is less about Archer and more about how that team just wasn't all that good and they over-invested on the back of a good week that happened to coincide with when big trades happen.

 

If the Brewers had acquired CC Sabathia and he sucked for them, it would be hard to fault them because they were definitely in the race when they did it. The Pirates had CHC, MIL and STL right there.

[PeaveyFury]

If you think Archer was a #1 starter at the time the Pirates acquired him, than we will have to agree to disagree. He had basically been an average SP his previous two seasons in Tampa, and was slightly below average to date in the season he was acquired. Despite his age, he was three years removed from his last truly 'great' season, and now (with the benefit of hindsight), his career arc was already in the declining phase. Lots of red flags.

 

If you think that's entirely with hindsight, there's likely a now buried Archer thread in the Rumors forum documenting many of these concerns from that time.

 

I think the point is less about Archer and more about how that team just wasn't all that good and they over-invested on the back of a good week that happened to coincide with when big trades happen.

 

Yep, that sums it up better than I was.

[MrTPlush]

There are probably 50 Archer threads as some wanted him more than any other player on the planet at that time.

 

I and many many others didn't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole though.

[nate82]

Archer was a bad trade at the time and is still a bad trade now.

 

Back in 2017 the Brewers were in the same spot as the Pirates and instead of trading for Gray or someone else the Brewers only added a relief pitcher I believe it was. That was the right move and the Pirates didn't need to trade for Archer. They could have went for a lesser target but they made a bad gamble and lost horribly.

[TURBO]

There are probably 50 Archer threads as some wanted him more than any other player on the planet at that time.

 

I and many many others didn't want to touch him with a 10 foot pole though.

 

Add me to the no Archer camp. I was scared to death we were going to get him.

 

Like you, I wanted nothing to do with him.

[Jopal78]

If you think Archer was a #1 starter at the time the Pirates acquired him, than we will have to agree to disagree. He had basically been an average SP his previous two seasons in Tampa, and was slightly below average to date in the season he was acquired. Despite his age, he was three years removed from his last truly 'great' season, and now (with the benefit of hindsight), his career arc was already in the declining phase. Lots of red flags.

 

Archer was the Opening Day/1 starter on the Rays a team whose pitching was in the front half of the league. You may not like the not like his stats sheet but he was without a doubt Tampa’s #1 starter.

 

Trading for a #1 starter is costly, it’s fair to say in retrospect they shouldn’t have done it given what happened but to say it was Mia-managed or bungled at the time isn’t wholly accurate.

[MrTPlush]

If you think Archer was a #1 starter at the time the Pirates acquired him, than we will have to agree to disagree. He had basically been an average SP his previous two seasons in Tampa, and was slightly below average to date in the season he was acquired. Despite his age, he was three years removed from his last truly 'great' season, and now (with the benefit of hindsight), his career arc was already in the declining phase. Lots of red flags.

 

Archer was the Opening Day/1 starter on the Rays a team whose pitching was in the front half of the league. You may not like the not like his stats sheet but he was without a doubt Tampa’s #1 starter.

 

Trading for a #1 starter is costly, it’s fair to say in retrospect they shouldn’t have done it given what happened but to say it was Mia-managed or bungled at the time isn’t wholly accurate.

 

[sarcasm]Should have just traded for Blake Snell, would have been cheaper as the Rays #2 starter[/sarcasm]

 

Either would have looked great as our ace instead of our #1 starter in 2018, Chase Anderson. He started opening day, so he had to be our #1 pitcher even if the results through half a season point otherwise.

[homer]

There is no doubt that the Rays are in big time rebuild especially with Stanton now in their division. Archer will be made available. The Brewers really need to act on it, even if it's to block the Cubs. Brinson, Ray, Ortiz, Diaz and Bickford would be my final offer. We would still have a mix of Lutz, Grisham(Clark) and Monte Harrison ready to take over for Braun in a few years.

 

If they would also want Broxton, Hernan Perez or Villar added to the list, then so be it. When you have a player that can toss 249 K's in 201 innings pitched in the American League East you have somebody very special. Now you add that team friendly contract for 4 more years. You gotta push the envelope on a guy like this.

[PeaveyFury]

[sarcasm]Should have just traded for Blake Snell, would have been cheaper as the Rays #2 starter[/sarcasm]

 

[sarcasm]The Brewers cut their 2019 opening day starter later in the same season. Clearly got a poor return for their #1.[/sarcasm]

 

Seriously though, the Pirates paid the cost to acquire a #1 who actually pitched like a #3 (And actually, like a #5 in the season they traded for him). That's textbook mismanagement, IMO. The Rays sold high on an asset that seemed to show signs of declining, and the Pirates bought high on same asset. Basically indicative of how well/poorly both of those orgs have been run respectively over the past several seasons.

[Simba2020]

As a lifelong fan of the Pirates (they were my team before the Brewers even existed), I hated the trade from their standpoint. They were clearly selling low on Glasnow and I was then, and still am, a big fan of Baz who was more than a throw in to me. Reviewing the trade again it probably wasn't quite as bad as it looks today. Archer did have a very favorable, seemingly, contract and Glasnow had yet to do much in the majors. Through the 2018 season he was just 4-16 with a 5.35 ERA. The Pirates weren't even using him as a starter in 2018. He turned into an ace in 2019 and Archer really fell apart so the trade looks horrendous today with the benefit of hindsight. So from the Pirates standpoint, maybe the trade should be viewed as a C- at the time of the trade that quickly turned into a resounding F.

 

Another reason to be skeptical of Archer was his Tropicana 3.26 home ERA (2016-18) and 4.92 road ERA. It's just flat out hard to hit in the Trop.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Yerman Mercedes pronounced via Instagram that he's walking away from baseball. Speculation is he's frustrated with the White Sox leaving him down in the minors. I know he struggled in May, but I may only be half joking when I suggest the Brewers should kick the tires on a possible trade.

[MrTPlush]

I would have no interest in a guy with that kind of attitude and willing to quit baseball over it.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I would have no interest in a guy with that kind of attitude and willing to quit baseball over it.

 

I want him just because he hit a homerun off of Willians Astudillo on a 3-0 pitch and Tony LaRussa scolded him for it.

 

Again, mostly joking, but like 12% serious.

[Jopal78]

[sarcasm]Should have just traded for Blake Snell, would have been cheaper as the Rays #2 starter[/sarcasm]

 

[sarcasm]The Brewers cut their 2019 opening day starter later in the same season. Clearly got a poor return for their #1.[/sarcasm]

 

Seriously though, the Pirates paid the cost to acquire a #1 who actually pitched like a #3 (And actually, like a #5 in the season they traded for him). That's textbook mismanagement, IMO. The Rays sold high on an asset that seemed to show signs of declining, and the Pirates bought high on same asset. Basically indicative of how well/poorly both of those orgs have been run respectively over the past several seasons.

 

Top of the rotation starter, frontline starter, #1 starter, whatever term you want to use, Archer averaged nearly 10 strikeouts per 9 with the Rays, 3:1 walk to strike out ratio, averaged 6 innings a start, had a FIP of 3.50, WHIP of 1.23 across 1000 innings (in fact Archer's numbers with the Rays are nearly identical to those of Ben Sheets with the Brewers), and never went on the DL. That is significantly better than a #3 starter any way you want to cut it. Plus, Archer was under contract for 3 additional seasons at a total cost of 27 million--there's no way a team could get the same or similar production at that cost hiring free agents.

 

They traded for a long-term piece at the most important position, that the young talent they traded blossomed after the fact doesn't make it mis-managed or bungled in anyway. Acquiring veteran talent is costly, and any young player could later develop into a star player.

 

Hypothetically speaking if Drew Rasmussen developed into a Cy Young award winning pitcher for Tampa Bay, would you then say the Brewers mis-managed or bungled the Adames trade? Of course not, nobody would. If teams didn't trade young talent because of the risk they may develop into tomorrow's stars, you would never see any trade of a veteran for younger player.

[PeaveyFury]

That is significantly better than a #3 starter any way you want to cut it.

 

Well, the modern statistical metrics that are available to us that rank him vs. his peers graded him as solidly average. You're looking at an individual stat sheet, and individual stat items that can be helpful as part of evaluation, but not great in grading his overall performance relative to the rest of the league.

 

Anyway, this is my last post on the subject. You can oddly die on this hill if you wish, but history has clearly shown that all of the red flags I identified were indeed indicative of future problems.

[MrTPlush]

Not sure how you can call someone 'significantly better than a #3 starter' after posting an ERA north of 4.00 in 500 innings straight. Especially when your hit rate is growing, your HR rate blew up, your WHIP is ballooning, and your K rate dropped off. The alarm bells were blaring that Chris Archer was at best a guy always underperforming his FIP or worse...declining.

 

The argument you are trying to make is exactly how the Pirates made a terrible trade.

[Simba2020]

Not sure how you can call someone 'significantly better than a #3 starter' after posting an ERA north of 4.00 in 500 innings straight. Especially when your hit rate is growing, your HR rate blew up, your WHIP is ballooning, and your K rate dropped off. The alarm bells were blaring that Chris Archer was at best a guy always underperforming his FIP or worse...declining.

 

The argument you are trying to make is exactly how the Pirates made a terrible trade.

And as I posted previously, Archer's ERA outside of Trop in 2016-18 prior to the trade was nearly 5. It's not just Adames that can't hit in the Trop. It's everyone.

[sveumrules]

Moved the posts on the Cleveland name change to their own thread, please continue discussion there.

[markedman5]

Cubs clearly blowing things up.....getting rid of their great players first!

[Underachiever]

Cubs clearly blowing things up.....getting rid of their great players first!

Can we just wait until the Brewers pass on signing him before we make jokes? Please?

[KeithStone53151]

Cubs clearly blowing things up.....getting rid of their great players first!

Can we just wait until the Brewers pass on signing him before we make jokes? Please?

 

I was thinking the same thing. I won't feel comfortable about him not becoming a Brewer again until September 1st.

[ReverendBrewmeister]

That Castellanos HBP in Cincinnati ended up being a bit more serious injury.

 

Microfracture detected, leading to an IL trip:

https://www.mlb.com/news/nick-castellanos-placed-on-il-with-right-wrist-injury

[jason21nl]

Baez might get his head taken off next Reds vs Cubs game.