Random thoughts that are pointless and too dumb to say anywhere else thread: 2021

[Thurston Fluff]

College isn't, nor should be, just about building a better work resume. That's what tech schools and apprenticeships are for. A college education is about being an overall more informed, well rounded person. If you have a better understanding of the world you live in then you have a better chance of making better life choices.

 

In theory, I agree, however, I think that the majority of college students are there to either kill time before hitting the real world, or to get the piece of paper that says they did something with their life.

 

In today's campus political climate, I doubt anyone is becoming well rounded, in fact, it feels like the opposite is happening.

 

It isn't just the classes. You meet people from all over and from different circumstances that you just don't get from tech schools and apprenticeships which tend to server the local areas more. My first roommate for example was from Bangladesh. I learned how to play cricket and I got my first taste of haleem from him. I still make haleem on occasion to this day. Those are things I had very little knowledge of before then. Hell I had no idea what a lentil was until then.

I'm a bit odd in that I worked for seven years before deciding to go to college. I made more before I went to college than I do working for myself now but I wouldn't trade my education for anything.

[nodakfan17]

Can I negotiate the price I was quoted for a new furnace and AC or would that be in poor taste? We have a good relationship with the company (they’ve bailed us out quickly when the old furnace died in winter). I’ve negotiated the price of a car, furniture, and jewelry, but this is my first big ticket HVAC purchase. Thanks in advance.

[MrTPlush]

Can I negotiate the price I was quoted for a new furnace and AC or would that be in poor taste? We have a good relationship with the company (they’ve bailed us out quickly when the old furnace died in winter). I’ve negotiated the price of a car, furniture, and jewelry, but this is my first big ticket HVAC purchase. Thanks in advance.

 

If you aren't sure about the price, get quotes from other companies. That is the more common and appropriate way to shop/negotiate a price for something like HVAC. If anything I would get a cheaper quote and see if they would match, but HVAC is facing shortages and their schedules are pretty packed. Maybe get a detailed quote to see what they are charging for the unit(s) and how much for labor. Then you can maybe find out if they are overpricing something.

[tmwiese55]

To the college talk, yes there are some degrees/tracks that get brought up in these discussions that don't have a clear job or career paths. But you have to remember there is also a ton that are clear: think accounting, business, engineering, medical stuff, teaching, law, computer science, etc. Not everyone is getting art history degrees even though it's easy to crack jokes about.

 

That said, even as UW grad I've been all for the mass pressuring of everyone to go to college is overdone. It's not for everyone and we shouldn't be looking down on folks who don't go that route. There is a serious lack of trade skills due to this, thus a good market to make solid money in the trades which usually only need tech school or on the job learning. Plus there is often a good option there to make it your own business.

 

I fully agree with the couple posts who said the biggest thing I gained from college is exposure to all types of people, really beneficial thing especially to those from rural areas.

Edited October 1, 2021 by tmwiese55

[Underachiever]

Can I negotiate the price I was quoted for a new furnace and AC or would that be in poor taste? We have a good relationship with the company (they’ve bailed us out quickly when the old furnace died in winter). I’ve negotiated the price of a car, furniture, and jewelry, but this is my first big ticket HVAC purchase. Thanks in advance.

 

If you aren't sure about the price, get quotes from other companies. That is the more common and appropriate way to shop/negotiate a price for something like HVAC. If anything I would get a cheaper quote and see if they would match, but HVAC is facing shortages and their schedules are pretty packed. Maybe get a detailed quote to see what they are charging for the unit(s) and how much for labor. Then you can maybe find out if they are overpricing something.

I can second what TPlush is saying. I had been messing around with getting quotes for a new furnace for most of the year. I also had to do a new roof and did my driveway, so I was hoping to punt on the expense until next year. Mind you, I NEED a new furnace. Have gotten almost 25 years out of the current one, and the guy who does my maintenance recommended that I replace. I ran into a high school friend last week. In catching up, he told me works in purchasing for a company. They can't get product for their company. They have been waiting since January for a new company truck, for example. I mentioned my furnace issue. He said, "If they have one, grab it. If it breaks in December, they might not have one available to sell you." I went back to two vendors, and both as much told me, "This is the price. Take it or leave it." I took it. So, I'm getting a new furnace this month.

 

TL, DR: With supply chain disruptions, you may not have much negotiating power. Multiple quotes is your way to get the best price. They may not move much.

[nodakfan17]

Thanks for the HVAC tips. I’m going to get a second quote to make sure the first one wasn’t too off base.

[BrewersSuperCollector]

My brother and I are a great case study. We were raised in the same home, at the same time, by the same parents. I was a good student in high school, but my brother struggled due to being dyslexic. He’s still a pretty sharp guy, but a lot of career choices were unavailable to him because he’s never been a strong reader. I work at a local bank. My brother is a carpenter. I went to college for 6 straight years. He started swinging a hammer the day after he graduated from high school. Today we’re both in the same tax bracket. The common denominator is our father teaching us how to be adults. School was nice (I enjoy many aspects of my job), but not necessary.

 

How often do you call your brother to help around your house with projects? How often does he call you for financial advice?

 

I have a nephew who used to do roofing. I told him to never tell anybody what he does for a living. Every acquaintance would want him to put a roof on their house for a case of beer. If people would ask he would say demolition.

[nate82]

 

I have a nephew who used to do roofing. I told him to never tell anybody what he does for a living. Every acquaintance would want him to put a roof on their house for a case of beer. If people would ask he would say demolition.

 

My cousin is a plumber and he tells everyone he cleans toilets for a living.

[Thurston Fluff]

To the college talk, yes there are some degrees/tracks that get brought up in these discussions that don't have a clear job or career paths. But you have to remember there is also a ton that are clear: think accounting, business, engineering, medical stuff, teaching, law, computer science, etc. Not everyone is getting art history degrees even though it's easy to crack jokes about.

 

That said, even as UW grad I've been all for the mass pressuring of everyone to go to college is overdone. It's not for everyone and we shouldn't be looking down on folks who don't go that route. There is a serious lack of trade skills due to this, thus a good market to make solid money in the trades which usually only need tech school or on the job learning. Plus there is often a good option there to make it your own business.

 

I fully agree with the couple posts who said the biggest thing I gained from college is exposure to all types of people, really beneficial thing especially to those from rural areas.

 

Completely agree. If you're going to college just for the job then make sure it's a job that needs a college degree. If not then do an apprenticeship or tech school. Less money spent, less years to complete and many times similar income.

 

Should also note I was from a rural area though rural Door County did offer more than it's share of visitors. But there is a difference between people and FIBS.

[adambr2]

My brother and I are a great case study. We were raised in the same home, at the same time, by the same parents. I was a good student in high school, but my brother struggled due to being dyslexic. He’s still a pretty sharp guy, but a lot of career choices were unavailable to him because he’s never been a strong reader. I work at a local bank. My brother is a carpenter. I went to college for 6 straight years. He started swinging a hammer the day after he graduated from high school. Today we’re both in the same tax bracket. The common denominator is our father teaching us how to be adults. School was nice (I enjoy many aspects of my job), but not necessary.

 

How often do you call your brother to help around your house with projects? How often does he call you for financial advice?

 

I have a nephew who used to do roofing. I told him to never tell anybody what he does for a living. Every acquaintance would want him to put a roof on their house for a case of beer. If people would ask he would say demolition.

 

I can't stand people that have a presumption of free/cheap goods and services from friends. This can be anything from construction to barbers to tattoo artists to a masseuse or anything else. I'm going to them for their benefit to support their business as a friend, not looking to rob them. I expect to pay full price and if they do try to cut me a deal I will make up for it on the tip.

[zurch1818]

I have my BS and MS from Madison in engineering and I feel like my education was just a piece of paper. I bet school only taught me 25% of the stuff that I needed to know in my current position. I also thought all those liberal arts classes (zoology, sociology, etc.) did not make me a better person. I feel like we need to have a 3 year bachelor's degree equivalent that axes these meaningless classes and just teaches you what you need to know. It should make getting a bachelor's degree way cheaper. In my opinion, we should be pushing for tech schools more and remove the negative stigma. College isn't for everyone.

 

Here's an example. We trained a very detail-oriented drafter how to do engineering. Out of everyone on our team, he routinely produces the highest quality work. He outperforms team members who have a 4 year engineering degree. He doesn't really understand all the technical theory behind things, which hampers him a little bit, but he is great at asking questions. He also wants to take zero responsibility and has no desire to be licensed. I believe Wisconsin still allows tech school graduates to get their PE if they have enough experience and they pass the PE exam. I bet with some training, he could pass the exam.

[nodakfan17]

My brother and I are a great case study. We were raised in the same home, at the same time, by the same parents. I was a good student in high school, but my brother struggled due to being dyslexic. He’s still a pretty sharp guy, but a lot of career choices were unavailable to him because he’s never been a strong reader. I work at a local bank. My brother is a carpenter. I went to college for 6 straight years. He started swinging a hammer the day after he graduated from high school. Today we’re both in the same tax bracket. The common denominator is our father teaching us how to be adults. School was nice (I enjoy many aspects of my job), but not necessary.

 

How often do you call your brother to help around your house with projects? How often does he call you for financial advice?

Maybe once a year I call him for advice on how to approach a repair and he says ‘I’ll just do it next time I’m there.’ I try not to lean on him too hard for routine things because I’d rather keep my favors for an emergency.

 

We talk openly about our finances and I’ll share my opinion, when asked. The average person would probably tell you it’s better to have a brother who is a carpenter than one who is a banker.

[MrTPlush]

I really don't think college is being overly pushed on kids and tech college certainly don't have a negative stigma. I recall going to the tech college at least 6 times before I graduated HS and never once did we ever visit the actual university close by.

 

At the end of the day for the large majority of people college is the best path in life...that is just the reality and rightfully it is pushed. Trying to push being a plumber etc. is not going to work. Either you want to be that or you don't. We don't need people in trade schools that don't like it...that would be awful. That is probably what every garbage plumber, mechanic, electrician had happen.

 

Most of the people in college that are failing, directionless, or wasting their time can be fit into like three groups:

 

1) Their parents are paying for them to be there thus reducing motivation etc. It also makes many of them totally not think about how financially advantageous their future major will be. That is where you get Sally doing women studies or painting pictures for four years. Now you could say this could include kids being there because they were pushed to by their parents. However, in my four years at college I never heard anyone say they went to college because their parents or their high school told them to. I really just don't think that is as common as some think.

 

2) They are getting lots of grant/free money to go. As with #1, motivation in college can get pretty spotty when someone else is footing most of the bill for you. I went to a school that had a large diverse background and admitted a lot of kids from struggling communities. Yes, the lack of cost allowed them to get in, but many just weren't that motivated to actually put in the effort. They probably didn't want to go to college anyway. Of course I would never say we should stop giving out grants, it is a double edged sword. Many waste them, but it also helps some make college possible.

 

3) The idea that you must go to college right away even if you have no idea what you want to go for, gap years are like the devil. The amount of people I saw never really figure out a major or it takes so long they end up with 5-6 years in college was really high. That expensive and many just didn't pick a great major in the end. They either picked something fun like art or did business management that they weren't passionate about. Which the later usually ends up causing them to not use it after graduation. Of course there is a valid reason why gap years are frowned upon. Statistically gap years end up lasting forever and kids never go. Of course maybe that is good and they shouldn't have gone in the first place.

 

 

As far as the gen eds and all the 'unneeded' classes. I personally support having them, I think it is highly beneficial to a lot of students. It forces you to interact with different backgrounds and different ways of thinking. Of course for some they are trying to figure out their major taking those gen eds. I get to some people they don't need it and it is wasteful. They can't make 10,000+ different paths through college to please everyone. Some of those majors may not even exist if there aren't gen ed students to fill the classes to get money for that department. I am sure many never used to the gym they paid $150 a year for. I am sure many don't utilize the black student union that gets $250 from every student either. Those things are incredibly valuable to some though.

[logan82]

I have my BS and MS from Madison in engineering and I feel like my education was just a piece of paper. I bet school only taught me 25% of the stuff that I needed to know in my current position. I also thought all those liberal arts classes (zoology, sociology, etc.) did not make me a better person. I feel like we need to have a 3 year bachelor's degree equivalent that axes these meaningless classes and just teaches you what you need to know. It should make getting a bachelor's degree way cheaper. In my opinion, we should be pushing for tech schools more and remove the negative stigma. College isn't for everyone.

 

Here's an example. We trained a very detail-oriented drafter how to do engineering. Out of everyone on our team, he routinely produces the highest quality work. He outperforms team members who have a 4 year engineering degree. He doesn't really understand all the technical theory behind things, which hampers him a little bit, but he is great at asking questions. He also wants to take zero responsibility and has no desire to be licensed. I believe Wisconsin still allows tech school graduates to get their PE if they have enough experience and they pass the PE exam. I bet with some training, he could pass the exam.

I worked in IT on the infrastructure side with a UW Computer Science graduate. He had no idea how to do anything in Active Directory and no Azure or Exchange knowledge. Too much theory and no practical experience. Maybe drop a couple liber arts classes and provide some useful experience.

[jjgott]

Just remembered the live chats here during the 2008 run to the playoffs. My MLB.TV was behind by about 5 seconds so I always see a bunch of "yesssssss"'s or "nooooooo"'s before I knew what happened.

[GAME05]

Just remembered the live chats here during the 2008 run to the playoffs. My MLB.TV was behind by about 5 seconds so I always see a bunch of "yesssssss"'s or "nooooooo"'s before I knew what happened.

 

For this very reason if I get a text on my phone during a close Brewers game I never look at it. 50% chance it's a friend of mine who's ahead in his broadcast.

[Jimbo]

To the college talk, yes there are some degrees/tracks that get brought up in these discussions that don't have a clear job or career paths. But you have to remember there is also a ton that are clear: think accounting, business, engineering, medical stuff, teaching, law, computer science, etc. Not everyone is getting art history degrees even though it's easy to crack jokes about.

 

That said, even as UW grad I've been all for the mass pressuring of everyone to go to college is overdone. It's not for everyone and we shouldn't be looking down on folks who don't go that route. There is a serious lack of trade skills due to this, thus a good market to make solid money in the trades which usually only need tech school or on the job learning. Plus there is often a good option there to make it your own business.

 

I fully agree with the couple posts who said the biggest thing I gained from college is exposure to all types of people, really beneficial thing especially to those from rural areas.

 

My thoughts that I have shared with others:

A college education doesn't mean you will be smarter than others. However, when you go to college, you meet people who don't look like you. You meet people who come from a different neighborhood than you.

 

Going to college teaches you how to think. You learn critical thinking skills. You learn to formulate thoughts and opinions based on fact, logic and reasoning. If you doubt this, just refer to general posting on social media in recent times. One can almost tell from reading a post if that person who went to college. Then click on the profile to confirm. To the poster(s) who feels L.A. classes are not necessary, I disagree. I wished I could have taken more.

[tmwiese55]

Yes, good post Jimbo. I'd agree with pretty much all of that, maybe besides pushing more generic LA classes. Edited October 4, 2021 by tmwiese55

[nate82]

 

My thoughts that I have shared with others:

A college education doesn't mean you will be smarter than others. However, when you go to college, you meet people who don't look like you. You meet people who come from a different neighborhood than you.

 

Going to college teaches you how to think. You learn critical thinking skills. You learn to formulate thoughts and opinions based on fact, logic and reasoning. If you doubt this, just refer to general posting on social media in recent times. One can almost tell from reading a post if that person who went to college. Then click on the profile to confirm. To the poster(s) who feels L.A. classes are not necessary, I disagree. I wished I could have taken more.

 

I completely disagree here at least with the recent college graduates. This may have been true in the past but now critical thinking has been replaced with group thinking. Very little if any critical thinking is pushed in college now as that would upset the group thinkers.

 

In my position when we have hired new college graduates they are lacking a lot in critical thinking. Anything that challenges their perceived notion of anything that is outside of the collective that they have been taught is completely foreign to them and shouldn't be thought about.

 

We have had people break down in tears because we have asked them to think critically outside of what they have learned. It is like they have lived inside of this bubble and can not let go of living inside that bubble.

 

Also there is this thing it is called the internet and it connects people around the world. In the US at least there is more culture that is shared than anywhere else. Yes from the 60's to the early 2000's you could isolate yourself but now not so much unless you live in the hermit kingdom.

 

There are a few pockets in the US where you can isolate yourself but you would have to actively engage in doing this. There is more information available to everyone right now that I don't believe you have to go to college to experience it.

 

Liberal arts classes should be just electives that the people who want to take them can and shouldn't be forced on anyone. If something is good it shouldn't have to be forced. Once you start forcing something is it really a good idea? People will freely follow a good idea or they won't that is the danger of free choice. Stop trying to force people into doing things it is better to persuade than it is to force as you will get better reception of the idea and will also get more discussion which then generates more good ideas or bad ones.

[nodakfan17]

A few months ago, I read an article that argued the reason why the ‘college degree’ became the standard for many jobs is because a high school diploma is now worthless. At one point, diploma holders possessed a baseline set of skills (reading, writing, arithmetic, etc.), but that’s no longer the case in the US. Kids don’t exit high school with the life skills they once did. Now, when an employer requires a bachelors degree, what they are really asking for is just a functional adult.

[FVBrewerFan]

A few months ago, I read an article that argued the reason why the ‘college degree’ became the standard for many jobs is because a high school diploma is now worthless. At one point, diploma holders possessed a baseline set of skills (reading, writing, arithmetic, etc.), but that’s no longer the case in the US. Kids don’t exit high school with the life skills they once did. Now, when an employer requires a bachelors degree, what they are really asking for is just a functional adult.

 

 

Except a college degree = functioning adult has not been my experience. What it DOES tell me is at least this person has completed something they started. It does tell me that.

 

Back to the concept of experiencing different people and cultures, since a couple people have mentioned this. Seems like more of romantic view of college in the 1950s to be honest. Don't get me wrong, if you're from a small town in northern WI or from Milwaukee's inner-city you can go to UW-Madison and expand your horizons. You can also do that by going to a tech school, joining the military, or directly entering the job force. In fact, probably more likely.

[nodakfan17]

A few months ago, I read an article that argued the reason why the ‘college degree’ became the standard for many jobs is because a high school diploma is now worthless. At one point, diploma holders possessed a baseline set of skills (reading, writing, arithmetic, etc.), but that’s no longer the case in the US. Kids don’t exit high school with the life skills they once did. Now, when an employer requires a bachelors degree, what they are really asking for is just a functional adult.

 

 

Except a college degree = functioning adult has not been my experience.

Indeed, I should have qualified that statement with ‘and even then there are no guarantees.’

[logan82]

There are a few pockets in the US where you can isolate yourself but you would have to actively engage in doing this. There is more information available to everyone right now that I don't believe you have to go to college to experience it.

Disagree. You can easily isolate yourself even more easily than you could before. News feeds are tailored to what you read and unless you go out of your way to read from opposing viewpoints you just get more of the same. Your friends group can easily end up all thinking the same thing. More information but you have to go out of your way not to read more news that will not reinforce your beliefs. I believe it is even easier tho isolate yourself than it used to be because you can reach out to and connect with more people who think the same instead of end up in forced conversation who you may disagree with and even if you do you just go back to your favorite social platform and those people can reinforce the person you were talking to is an idiot.

 

It is much much easier to stay connected to people who will not challenge your belief system or retreat into just communicating with people who do if your beliefs are challenged.

[nate82]

Disagree. You can easily isolate yourself even more easily than you could before. News feeds are tailored to what you read and unless you go out of your way to read from opposing viewpoints you just get more of the same. Your friends group can easily end up all thinking the same thing. More information but you have to go out of your way not to read more news that will not reinforce your beliefs. I believe it is even easier tho isolate yourself than it used to be because you can reach out to and connect with more people who think the same instead of end up in forced conversation who you may disagree with and even if you do you just go back to your favorite social platform and those people can reinforce the person you were talking to is an idiot.

 

It is much much easier to stay connected to people who will not challenge your belief system or retreat into just communicating with people who do if your beliefs are challenged.

 

This has always been the case as people will always gravitate towards the tribe that represents them the best. Not much of a difference between now and then.

[LouisEly]

I completely disagree here at least with the recent college graduates. This may have been true in the past but now critical thinking has been replaced with group thinking. Very little if any critical thinking is pushed in college now as that would upset the group thinkers.

 

In my position when we have hired new college graduates they are lacking a lot in critical thinking. Anything that challenges their perceived notion of anything that is outside of the collective that they have been taught is completely foreign to them and shouldn't be thought about.

 

We have had people break down in tears because we have asked them to think critically outside of what they have learned. It is like they have lived inside of this bubble and can not let go of living inside that bubble.

There is a lot of truth to this. I manage people who are 22-25 and a couple of months ago when they didn't seem to understand why I asked them to do something, instead of spoon-feeding them the answer I asked them in a very non-threatening way why they thought I did in order to challenge them to think. Nobody was criticized for their answer; some people offered answers to which my reply was usually along the lines of, "that might be part of it... why else do you think I ask you to do that?"

 

At least one of them complained to my boss's boss that they felt intimidated.