Game 13: Packers @ Lions - Sunday, December 13th , 3:25PM CT

[FVBrewerFan]

The whole game I kept thinking that it shouldn't have been as close as it was. How do you only score two TDs in the first half against a team with basically no CBs?

 

Not getting the ball to start the game, and the Lions having two very long TD drives makes two quarters go by very quickly...

 

I think what this defense can potentially hang their hat on is that they do have playmakers on all 3 levels to shut drives down - however their weakness is the intermediate middle of the field, and Pettine's scheme too often seems to make those positions the focal point of the defense. Also, teams that can exploit the lack of impact talent at DE and MLB with interior misdirection runs, screens, and other RB/TE option routes often have their way when they can isolate those weak spots.

 

Screens will kill a charmin soft zone all day.

 

Soft zone is perfect to defend screens, since defenders are laying back and can attack when they see it. Screens will kill teams that don't hold the edge, as the Smith brothers often fail to do. Add a blitz, like they did on the one long screen, and you are really exposed.

[homer]

 

Agreed - and a charmin soft zone puts too much honus on linebackers to be in the right spot all the time. With their defensive personnel I'd much rather play alot more man.

 

Yeah I guess I don't understand the reticence to do so.

[adambr2]

It's not that the defense is horrendous or has huge issues. It's that they don't play to their talent level.

[homer]

It's not that the defense is horrendous or has huge issues. It's that they don't play to their talent level.

 

I think it's scheme that doesn't put them in positions to succeed along with some weak guys up front outside of Clark.

[pacopete4]

I do agree that their coaching staff doesn't seem to use some of their pieces the best but it does seem that there have been adjustments over the past few games in being more aggressive. This was my biggest complaint early on this season. It feels better lately but that, as other posters have said, could be due to who we are playing.

[GAME05]

Off the cuff I was figuring that the defense works so hard to prevent the deep plays that they become more exposed to the 7-yard gain. Without knowing how to look it up, I presume the SS plays deeper in GB to prevent those big plays at the sacrifice of stopping things like screens a little sooner.

[PeaveyFury]

I do agree that their coaching staff doesn't seem to use some of their pieces the best but it does seem that there have been adjustments over the past few games in being more aggressive.

 

I'll agree with this point as well. Through the first ~10 games of the season, it felt like we were using the old Dom Capers "defend a good QB, don't blitz" mantra. Over the past few games they've definitely been blitzing waaaaaay more and that has yielded much better results.

 

I still think the larger point regarding talent level vs. production is very real. They've got a couple of holes on the line, and work-in-progress at MLB. Everywhere else, the talent level is good yet the defense yields poor results. That is undeniably scheme and coaching.

[CheezWizHed]

My takes on the game yesterday:

- MVS was a stud yesterday. I didn't think he could have this type of game. Excellent hands and no body catches and excellent focus on the ball. Good short/intermediate routes. Frankly, I was stunned to see that game out of him.

- Defense - hey I'm going to say it. They were actually decent. Run defense was excellent. Pass defense wasn't great, but passable (pun intended). Stafford is no slouch at QB and we kind of expected this to be a shootout. The first drive was poor, but the rest wasn't the usual horribleness. I have my doubts about the 5 defensive holding penalties on that one drive... I wish I could've seen them with my own eyes. Seems like officials throw out some gimme plays for the underdog team.

- Our MLB play remains weak, but it was good to see all three MLBs available. There were three RB screens were the MLB wasn't even in the camera view the entire time the RB had the ball. Overall, play is improving but Kirksey is often a step late. Martin plays fast, but sometimes to the wrong spot. Didn't see much of Barnes.

- Vernon Scott had a couple good plays out there (taking Greene's spot?). I think he will be one to watch next year.

- We seem to like the half-back role and find guys capable of doing it. I can't even remember who we just added to the roster to fill this spot, but next year will be interesting as we will have about 300 guys coming off the IR to fill that role. (And yesterday's guy seemed to do well too).

- Lowry and Keke on the DL, along with the return of "December Clark" has helped improve the unit too.

 

edit - Seems that Barnes played more than I thought; even to the point of Kirksey having some snaps off. It will be interesting to see how this works out the rest of the year.

edit2 - Looks like Scott got more opportunities due to Sullivan being benched in the second half, not Greene's injury.

[HiAndTight]

It's not that the defense is horrendous or has huge issues. It's that they don't play to their talent level.

 

I'd lay that right on the DC's feet.

 

Edit-Though despite my issues with Pettine, this defense DOES look like it's coming together. They were caught in man on a few of those screens as well with the LB'er assigned to the back getting caught up in the wash(usually Kirksey).

 

Soft man can be beaten by screens, but man coverage where you're sending someone from the other side can hurt you worse.

 

That said, the way the Packers were rallying to the FB, the way they were firing off the LOS, the way the OLB'ers were doing a pretty good job of holding the edge and allowing pursuit to get there. The defense is DEFINITELY trending in the right direction.

 

But this game, they were giving up some passing yards and that's gonna happen sometimes when you face Stafford and a guy like Marvin Jones who's a really good WR'er. There were a LOT of contested balls thrown and Stafford just finds ways to get that ball out when he's under pressure.

 

The DL as was mentioned played great. Kirksey is slow to react and doesn't seem certain of himself out there. I think that's gotta be chalked up as a miss. Really miss Raven Greene, but he just can't stay healthy.

 

 

But we do have too many good players.

Clark is an elite DT.

Z Smith is an elite Edge. Preston CAN be...but he's been used all over and this looks like a lost year for him. Gary though is coming on and fast.

 

MLB's is weak, but then CB, Alexander is as good as you can get right now, King's a ball hawk and aggressive. Savage is starting to fly around and make plays while Amos has started to assert himself a bit more.

 

Sullivan getting benched for the holding calls was questionable to me. Those were pretty tough calls, but we've got so much depth.

 

And Will Redmond. He's really an unsung hero for this team. Not a physical safety, but he can play there and he can line up in the slot.

 

 

This defense...TO ME, looks like it could use a real Safety/LB'er hybrid for sub-packages, a more reliable MLB'er(that could be Martin IMO) and then just a better 3 tech. Keke is turning into a really good 5, Clark's a dominant NT...Lowry's played better at the other end and I think Rush will help.

 

Again, Capers was brought up, but I think this defense would be easily a top 10 unit with him. He did need the right players for his system, he wasn't great at adjusting his scheme to his talent, but the talent on the team fits his scheme perfectly.

 

 

That Titans game is going to be a HUGE measuring stick for the Packers. It MIGHT be to clinch the #1 seed in the NFC and I would assume Rush would get quite a few snaps in that game. We'll see how far the D and Pettine have come in two weeks.

[HiAndTight]

I do agree that their coaching staff doesn't seem to use some of their pieces the best but it does seem that there have been adjustments over the past few games in being more aggressive.

 

I'll agree with this point as well. Through the first ~10 games of the season, it felt like we were using the old Dom Capers "defend a good QB, don't blitz" mantra. Over the past few games they've definitely been blitzing waaaaaay more and that has yielded much better results.

 

I still think the larger point regarding talent level vs. production is very real. They've got a couple of holes on the line, and work-in-progress at MLB. Everywhere else, the talent level is good yet the defense yields poor results. That is undeniably scheme and coaching.

 

 

I feel like the perception of Capers is a bit skewed due to the terrible secondary talent we had his last few years in GB. He was aggressive and came up with some very nice blitzes when we had guys like Woodson, Harris, Shields, Collins and company in the secondary.

 

But when you have guys like Gunter as your number 1 CB, you really need to play coverage. And when you've got Rodgers, the bend but don't break ideology makes a lot more sense.

 

When you have 3-4 good CB's and a few more who are serviceable. Hell, Jackson, Sullivan, Holloman and Redmond was a lot better than what he was working with toward the end.

[HiAndTight]

My takes on the game yesterday:

- MVS was a stud yesterday. I didn't think he could have this type of game. Excellent hands and no body catches and excellent focus on the ball. Good short/intermediate routes. Frankly, I was stunned to see that game out of him.

- Defense - hey I'm going to say it. They were actually decent. Run defense was excellent. Pass defense wasn't great, but passable (pun intended). Stafford is no slouch at QB and we kind of expected this to be a shootout. The first drive was poor, but the rest wasn't the usual horribleness. I have my doubts about the 5 defensive holding penalties on that one drive... I wish I could've seen them with my own eyes. Seems like officials throw out some gimme plays for the underdog team.

- Our MLB play remains weak, but it was good to see all three MLBs available. There were three RB screens were the MLB wasn't even in the camera view the entire time the RB had the ball. Overall, play is improving but Kirksey is often a step late. Martin plays fast, but sometimes to the wrong spot. Didn't see much of Barnes.

- Vernon Scott had a couple good plays out there (taking Greene's spot?). I think he will be one to watch next year.

- We seem to like the half-back role and find guys capable of doing it. I can't even remember who we just added to the roster to fill this spot, but next year will be interesting as we will have about 300 guys coming off the IR to fill that role. (And yesterday's guy seemed to do well too).

- Lowry and Keke on the DL, along with the return of "December Clark" has helped improve the unit too.

 

edit - Seems that Barnes played more than I thought; even to the point of Kirksey having some snaps off. It will be interesting to see how this works out the rest of the year.

edit2 - Looks like Scott got more opportunities due to Sullivan being benched in the second half, not Greene's injury.

 

1-MVS was a COMPLETE player yesterday and you could see his confidence growing. It was spilling over in all aspects of the game. His blocking was better, he was catching the ball with his hands, he was setting up his routes. If this is MVS gaining confidence, that's an enormous boost for this offense.

 

2-Defense was solid. I thought there were some pretty questionable holding calls.

 

3-I'd rather see Martin out their as your #1 MLB'er and then maybe Barnes. I don't see anything from Kirksey. Maybe he's banged up, but he looks a lot slower than he did in Cleveland and he's letting the OL get on him.

 

Martin...while he may not always take the best route, he brings a ton of energy and his timing is outstanding. The blitz was perfectly timed and he's often playing on the other side of the LOS and is the most physical backer...but he didn't seem to get as much PT as I think he should.

 

Maybe he's not right because from my point of view, he's the best MLB'er we've got by far.

 

4-Agreed on Scott. AS I said earlier, the whole secondary was really hitting and tackling well. Greene was my defensive breakout candidate(a guy named Tonyan was my offensive choice...maybe you've heard of him .

 

But he can't stay on the field and Scott is a good-sized safety who can run and hit.

 

5-

we seem to like the half-back role and find guys capable of doing it.

 

Are you talking about that...wing-back position? HB is usually just used interchangeably with RB in today's NFL. The primary ball carrier. I assume you're talking about the Tyler Ervin, Tayvon Austin role. Sorta Melvin Gordon's role as a RS Freshmen at Wisconsin.

 

I strongly advocated trading for John Ross and putting him in that role. Cordarrelle Patterson is absolutely the PERFECT fit for that role in this offense(and a FA). The offense just changes too much when Ervin goes down and Patterson is much more dangerous with the ball in his hand and an outstanding receiver....for that role. But I'm guessing that's a position they invest a bit more in next year as it's such a huge part of our offense.

 

If you have someone who can really stress the defense there...and in a perfect world, return some kicks, that basically another starter and you can't treat that as a specialist. It opens up the passing game, you freeze the LB'ers in a way that using Lazard just doesn't. Maybe Austin CAN be that guy moving forward. He's versatile, he's a very good punt returner. But I really think John Ross will be cheap and is a little thicker and a little more explosive at this point. Patterson, again, the perfect man for that role, but while he'll be cheap, he'll still likely get 3-4 million. Not sure if they want to spend that.

 

 

6-The DL....man, I'd given up on Lowry, but he played his best game of the year. Clark is just dominant and Keke is a hustle guy who just keeps adding to his pass-rushing repertoire and is holding up in the run game.

 

THAT was a very good game by that DL. I'm not sure what's going on with Rush. I would have bet my house that I saw him debut a couple of weeks ago and even remember thinking he was playing the run really well...but it shows he played no snaps vs the Bears or yet this year.

[CheezWizHed]

3-I'd rather see Martin out their as your #1 MLB'er and then maybe Barnes. I don't see anything from Kirksey. Maybe he's banged up, but he looks a lot slower than he did in Cleveland and he's letting the OL get on him.

 

Martin...while he may not always take the best route, he brings a ton of energy and his timing is outstanding. The blitz was perfectly timed and he's often playing on the other side of the LOS and is the most physical backer...but he didn't seem to get as much PT as I think he should.

 

Maybe he's not right because from my point of view, he's the best MLB'er we've got by far.

 

4-Agreed on Scott. AS I said earlier, the whole secondary was really hitting and tackling well. Greene was my defensive breakout candidate(a guy named Tonyan was my offensive choice...maybe you've heard of him .

 

But he can't stay on the field and Scott is a good-sized safety who can run and hit.

 

5-

we seem to like the half-back role and find guys capable of doing it.

 

Are you talking about that...wing-back position? HB is usually just used interchangeably with RB in today's NFL. The primary ball carrier. I assume you're talking about the Tyler Ervin, Tayvon Austin role. Sorta Melvin Gordon's role as a RS Freshmen at Wisconsin.

 

I strongly advocated trading for John Ross and putting him in that role. Cordarrelle Patterson is absolutely the PERFECT fit for that role in this offense(and a FA). The offense just changes too much when Ervin goes down and Patterson is much more dangerous with the ball in his hand and an outstanding receiver....for that role. But I'm guessing that's a position they invest a bit more in next year as it's such a huge part of our offense.

 

If you have someone who can really stress the defense there...and in a perfect world, return some kicks, that basically another starter and you can't treat that as a specialist. It opens up the passing game, you freeze the LB'ers in a way that using Lazard just doesn't. Maybe Austin CAN be that guy moving forward. He's versatile, he's a very good punt returner. But I really think John Ross will be cheap and is a little thicker and a little more explosive at this point. Patterson, again, the perfect man for that role, but while he'll be cheap, he'll still likely get 3-4 million. Not sure if they want to spend that.

 

3. I think Barnes is our best MLB right now, but Martin has the best upside. I just don't think Martin has the full defense figured out, but looks like a good pick for the future. Given Barnes barely played last week, then started taking some of Kirksey's snaps this week, I'm guessing the Packers are ramping him back into the starting spot. Next week's snaps should be pretty interesting.

 

4. Dude. You can stop patting yourself on the back about Tonyan. Many of us said the same thing.

 

5. I knew something didn't sound right when I wrote that... I meant the H-back (hybrid TE/FB) position. Deguara, Lovett, Sternberger (out of position a bit), and now Dafney. Dafeny didn't play too much but had some nice run blocks and seemed pretty sure of what he was doing out there. I still think Deguara would've added a major element to our offense with his versatility.

 

Austin was interesting and contributed a lot early (scripted that way I'm sure). But I'm still disappointed to not see a jet sweep out of him. Looked like he still had some wheels.

[PeaveyFury]

3. I think Barnes is our best MLB right now, but Martin has the best upside. I just don't think Martin has the full defense figured out, but looks like a good pick for the future. Given Barnes barely played last week, then started taking some of Kirksey's snaps this week, I'm guessing the Packers are ramping him back into the starting spot. Next week's snaps should be pretty interesting.

 

Interestingly, Barnes has graded out very poorly by PFF. Like really bad. Kirksey has also graded out really bad, only slightly better than Barnes. Both rank in the bottom 10 of ILBs. Not bottom 10%, the actual bottom 10. Not good.

 

Martin has graded much better, and above average at this point. He hasn't been on the field enough due to the injury to actually qualify for their positional rankings, though.

[PeaveyFury]

I feel like the perception of Capers is a bit skewed due to the terrible secondary talent we had his last few years in GB. He was aggressive and came up with some very nice blitzes when we had guys like Woodson, Harris, Shields, Collins and company in the secondary.

 

But when you have guys like Gunter as your number 1 CB, you really need to play coverage. And when you've got Rodgers, the bend but don't break ideology makes a lot more sense.

 

I hear what you're saying, but very much disagree with the strategy. When you're playing a good QB with a poor secondary, not blitzing simply gives him the time he needs for even slightly above average receivers to get separation from a poor corner or burn a bad safety. Sending pressure will undoubtedly result in some big plays, but it's better than letting a guy like Brees comfortably sit back and shred you 15 yards at a time because he can just wait back there.

[CheezWizHed]

By observation, it looks like they only put Martin in for running down/distance (where we play base) and are trying to limit his exposure to the pass. I'm guessing his pass coverage needs work which is why he has such a limited set of snaps each week. He certainly has made splash plays and looks 2x faster than our other MLBs.

[HiAndTight]

3-I'd rather see Martin out their as your #1 MLB'er and then maybe Barnes. I don't see anything from Kirksey. Maybe he's banged up, but he looks a lot slower than he did in Cleveland and he's letting the OL get on him.

 

Martin...while he may not always take the best route, he brings a ton of energy and his timing is outstanding. The blitz was perfectly timed and he's often playing on the other side of the LOS and is the most physical backer...but he didn't seem to get as much PT as I think he should.

 

Maybe he's not right because from my point of view, he's the best MLB'er we've got by far.

 

4-Agreed on Scott. AS I said earlier, the whole secondary was really hitting and tackling well. Greene was my defensive breakout candidate(a guy named Tonyan was my offensive choice...maybe you've heard of him .

 

But he can't stay on the field and Scott is a good-sized safety who can run and hit.

 

5-

we seem to like the half-back role and find guys capable of doing it.

 

Are you talking about that...wing-back position? HB is usually just used interchangeably with RB in today's NFL. The primary ball carrier. I assume you're talking about the Tyler Ervin, Tayvon Austin role. Sorta Melvin Gordon's role as a RS Freshmen at Wisconsin.

 

I strongly advocated trading for John Ross and putting him in that role. Cordarrelle Patterson is absolutely the PERFECT fit for that role in this offense(and a FA). The offense just changes too much when Ervin goes down and Patterson is much more dangerous with the ball in his hand and an outstanding receiver....for that role. But I'm guessing that's a position they invest a bit more in next year as it's such a huge part of our offense.

 

If you have someone who can really stress the defense there...and in a perfect world, return some kicks, that basically another starter and you can't treat that as a specialist. It opens up the passing game, you freeze the LB'ers in a way that using Lazard just doesn't. Maybe Austin CAN be that guy moving forward. He's versatile, he's a very good punt returner. But I really think John Ross will be cheap and is a little thicker and a little more explosive at this point. Patterson, again, the perfect man for that role, but while he'll be cheap, he'll still likely get 3-4 million. Not sure if they want to spend that.

 

3. I think Barnes is our best MLB right now, but Martin has the best upside. I just don't think Martin has the full defense figured out, but looks like a good pick for the future. Given Barnes barely played last week, then started taking some of Kirksey's snaps this week, I'm guessing the Packers are ramping him back into the starting spot. Next week's snaps should be pretty interesting.

 

4. Dude. You can stop patting yourself on the back about Tonyan. Many of us said the same thing.

 

5. I knew something didn't sound right when I wrote that... I meant the H-back (hybrid TE/FB) position. Deguara, Lovett, Sternberger (out of position a bit), and now Dafney. Dafeny didn't play too much but had some nice run blocks and seemed pretty sure of what he was doing out there. I still think Deguara would've added a major element to our offense with his versatility.

 

Austin was interesting and contributed a lot early (scripted that way I'm sure). But I'm still disappointed to not see a jet sweep out of him. Looked like he still had some wheels.

 

 

I don't know...maybe. He just makes a few plays a game that really pop. Plays where he'll just fly to the ball, fill a gap and take on a guard or a FB if he has to, and make a tackle. The problem appears to be he struggles to stay on the field.

 

Yes...I know a few others were high on him as well, people who really follow the team...but c'mon, how often does one of those guys really hit like this?

 

 

H-Back makes more sense...and in retrospect, I should have picked up on that when you mentioned all the guys coming off IR for next year. I think they really like Degura and Lovett is a really nice athlete. I'm excited to see those two moving around doing different things.

 

 

And I was also disappointed they didn't use Austin, though maybe he's working on getting his legs back or even just waiting to break him out in a bigger spot. But if he's healthy and has fresh legs for the rest of the season, that 4.28 40 could come in handy and maybe steal us a TD via a Punt Return or on that wheel route that they love to have those guys run off that jet sweep. I don't know...if MVS keeps up what he's doing, our offense becomes a helluva lot more dangerous and now you add another thread in there? It's hard to not envision what COULD have been had the Packers gone with Gibson instead of Dillon. I don't know if it was you or who it was, but someone on here was really high on him and I thought he'd be a good fit(though I didn't think he'd be Roger Craig in his first year on a bad team).

 

But if they are going to put a premium on that H-back position, they really should put a premium on that hybrid position.

[brewcrewdue80]

Here's a wonder. I feel like in past 3 games Kirksey has been beaten on passes targeted to who he seems to be covering at least 2 if not 3 times during those games. Now defensively we're putting more pressure on the QB it feels in those 3 games. So, has anyone noticed Preston Smith covering receivers in the last 3 games? Or has his presence been felt more around the line of scrimmage? And this helping the QB pressuring?

 

So a switch in scheme away from Smith to Kirksey is the thought on who's exposed.

[CheezWizHed]

No, there are still times when the OLB's responsibility is in coverage. Every time we aren't blitzing (rushing 4), we have an OLB in coverage:

- In base, there are three DLs and one OLB pass rushing. - I rarely see Z in coverage, so mostly Preston or Gary.

- In (some) nickel defenses, Z switches inside and Preston/Gary are the OLBs, so you have 2DL, Z, and one OLB in pass rush with one OLB in coverage.

 

I'm not sure what percentage of snaps we play with those defenses (and there is a pass), but the most obvious pass defense is Gary, Z, Preston, and Clark pass rushing. So no OLB in in coverage for that situation of course. We typically have 3CBs, 1MLB, and 3 safeties at that point in coverage.

 

I've not seen Preston on a WR - that obviously is to be avoided. His overall play has really elevated the last 4 weeks or so.

[HiAndTight]

Here's a wonder. I feel like in past 3 games Kirksey has been beaten on passes targeted to who he seems to be covering at least 2 if not 3 times during those games. Now defensively we're putting more pressure on the QB it feels in those 3 games. So, has anyone noticed Preston Smith covering receivers in the last 3 games? Or has his presence been felt more around the line of scrimmage? And this helping the QB pressuring?

 

So a switch in scheme away from Smith to Kirksey is the thought on who's exposed.

 

 

No...Preston was not covering anyone effectively. Kirksey is better in coverage...which is a very low bar. Smith was pretty much just dropping on zone blitzes for the most part, though he did occasionally find himself in man with a back or a TE running downfield.