3b zach green minor league deal; non-roster invitee

[tmwiese55]

Saw Bettinger sent down today so they're making moves even though no game until tomorrow. No way Keston isn't down before tomorrow's game though right? Green just seems the logical call up to replace and give a shot.

 

Biggest thing I pick up as a couch hitting coach is Keston's finish on his swing. It's like the end of a golf swing rather than a baseball with how high his hands are. I'd guess that's coming from way too much uppercut to it. Obviously I'm not an expert but there seems at least needs to be a pretty good mechanical change, not just clearing his head.

 

I saw some say how what's the point of sending down, move on, he's done, etc type takes. I really think there is a mechanical switch that can be done with him to fix and he's not a lost cause. It's going to take more than two weeks down there though and maybe it would be best to not even play games, maybe they have a camp in AZ he can go to and work on mechanics for a bit before going to AAA, IDK. You have him for cheap for years, you're better off trying to fix than giving away.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Actually I don’t think Hiura is that talented. Scouting reports have found massive holes in his swing. Anything 92 and above is a foul at best. Hiura is going to be a BUST I’m afraid unless he does a complete swing change.

[pacopete4]

Man, we have a lot of guys we could replace Haines with right on these message boards!

[MrTPlush]

Man, we have a lot of guys we could replace Haines with right on these message boards!

 

The expertise on Hiura's swing, stance, leg kick, etc. being the problem is truly extensive on the forum. Yet not a single hitting expert or coach with the Brewers has ever had him make this change?

 

Idk...I think his issues may be more than a swing or stance. People like to make Hiura's problems seem simple, but I don't think it is.

[areacodes]

Actually I don’t think Hiura is that talented. Scouting reports have found massive holes in his swing. Anything 92 and above is a foul at best. Hiura is going to be a BUST I’m afraid unless he does a complete swing change.

 

Was he only hitting pitches less than 92 mph back in 2019?

[KCBrewerfan34]

Ask the Pirates. Hiura has piled up what stats he has accumulated, a great percentage is against the Pirates. Toe tap must go!!!!

 

Why is anybody defending Hiura? Do you guys have his rookie cards?

 

1-30 with 15k’s. It ain’t working fellas!!!

[areacodes]

I wasn’t really trying to defend Hiura. He wasn’t good in 2020 and has been historically terrible this year. Changes are needed and I personally think he should probably go back down to AAA to work on his swing.

 

I just thought your statement about him not being able to hit anything faster than 92 and calling him a bust already was off base.

[rickh150]

I wasn’t really trying to defend Hiura. He wasn’t good in 2020 and has been historically terrible this year. Changes are needed and I personally think he should probably go back down to AAA to work on his swing.

 

I just thought your statement about him not being able to hit anything faster than 92 and calling him a bust already was off base.

 

Off base? How so?

[brooks_quichenick]

I wasn’t really trying to defend Hiura. He wasn’t good in 2020 and has been historically terrible this year. Changes are needed and I personally think he should probably go back down to AAA to work on his swing.

 

I just thought your statement about him not being able to hit anything faster than 92 and calling him a bust already was off base.

 

Off base? How so?

 

.303/.368/.570 with 19 homers, a 140 wRC+ and 2.2 fWAR in 2019. He obviously needs to make a serious mechanical adjustment, but he's had big league success very recently, so determining that he is already a bust doesn't make sense. It's like calling Corbin Burnes a bust after his dreadful 2019. He made some big adjustments and something clicked, now he's one of the best pitchers in the league. Keston deserves the same opportunity.

[homer]

Man, we have a lot of guys we could replace Haines with right on these message boards!

 

The expertise on Hiura's swing, stance, leg kick, etc. being the problem is truly extensive on the forum. Yet not a single hitting expert or coach with the Brewers has ever had him make this change?

 

Idk...I think his issues may be more than a swing or stance. People like to make Hiura's problems seem simple, but I don't think it is.

 

He just has to hit the ball better.

[brewcrewdue80]

Man, we have a lot of guys we could replace Haines with right on these message boards!

 

The expertise on Hiura's swing, stance, leg kick, etc. being the problem is truly extensive on the forum. Yet not a single hitting expert or coach with the Brewers has ever had him make this change?

 

Idk...I think his issues may be more than a swing or stance. People like to make Hiura's problems seem simple, but I don't think it is.

 

He just has to hit the ball more that 2/3rds the time.

Fixed for you.

[Jopal78]

I wasn’t really trying to defend Hiura. He wasn’t good in 2020 and has been historically terrible this year. Changes are needed and I personally think he should probably go back down to AAA to work on his swing.

 

I just thought your statement about him not being able to hit anything faster than 92 and calling him a bust already was off base.

 

Off base? How so?

 

.303/.368/.570 with 19 homers, a 140 wRC+ and 2.2 fWAR in 2019. He obviously needs to make a serious mechanical adjustment, but he's had big league success very recently, so determining that he is already a bust doesn't make sense. It's like calling Corbin Burnes a bust after his dreadful 2019. He made some big adjustments and something clicked, now he's one of the best pitchers in the league. Keston deserves the same opportunity.

 

But it’s not. Burnes had 50 or so bad Innings in his career (200 IP). Hiura has been awful most of his at bats and hasn’t been consistently productive for nearly two years

[brooks_quichenick]

.303/.368/.570 with 19 homers, a 140 wRC+ and 2.2 fWAR in 2019. He obviously needs to make a serious mechanical adjustment, but he's had big league success very recently, so determining that he is already a bust doesn't make sense. It's like calling Corbin Burnes a bust after his dreadful 2019. He made some big adjustments and something clicked, now he's one of the best pitchers in the league. Keston deserves the same opportunity.

 

But it’s not. Burnes had 50 or so bad Innings in his career (200 IP). Hiura has been awful most of his at bats and hasn’t been consistently productive for nearly two years

 

Corbin Burnes threw 38 good innings in 2018 before those 50 or so bad innings in 2019. The rest of those (200 IP) have been after he took a long look at his game and made major adjustments, which is what Keston needs to do. Keston Hiura had early success in limited action (2019), much like Corbin. And just like Corbin, he's struggled mightily after that early success. Many young players go through this, just normally not to the extremes that Corbin or Keston have.

 

If you combine Keston's MLB numbers from 2019-2020, it still doesn't even reach a full season - it's just 143 games - and the numbers overall are very good for a 22-23 year old:

 

143 G

531 AB

27 doubles

2 triples

32 HR

81 RBI

12 SB

.266/.338/.505

118 OPS+

 

Yes he's going through a brutal stretch right now, but it's undeniable that Keston's situation is extremely similar to what Corbin went through recently. He's 24 years old and has had real big league success. He needs to go to AAA for a good while and figure it out. Declaring him a bust now is just not very smart, and is exactly like anyone who gave up on Corbin after his 2019.

[DHonks]

Hiura has been awful most of his at bats and hasn’t been consistently productive for nearly two years

 

Just wanted to point out that EVERY player in history is awful for most of their at bats. That's why nobody has ever hit .501 or better. Baseball is a sport where we put someone in the hall of fame for succeeding in 3/10 of their at bats, and this year a player succeeding in 1/4 is looking mighty good. So Hiura is doing well in 1.5/10, that's not far off from 2.5/10

[brewcrewdue80]

Hiura has been awful most of his at bats and hasn’t been consistently productive for nearly two years

 

Just wanted to point out that EVERY player in history is awful for most of their at bats. That's why nobody has ever hit .501 or better. Baseball is a sport where we put someone in the hall of fame for succeeding in 3/10 of their at bats, and this year a player succeeding in 1/4 is looking mighty good. So Hiura is doing well in 1.5/10, that's not far off from 2.5/10

 

Hes batting .127 after 102ABs. Lets say he reaches 400ABs. He'll need 87hits in the last 298ABs. A 292 BA. We're almost approaching having to bat HoF then to reach the current succeeding player. He's extremely far off. Stays on pace hes at this 4game series, he will Have to bat HoF level to reach the succeeding player.

 

Whats interesting to see via statcast that clearly shows something terribly wrong in his swing is the year to year spray chart.

2019 he hit 45pct to center. 2020 it was 40pct. This season its 28.8pct. Teams are shifting more and his numbers are worse vs the shift. His batted ball pct has 37.3pct as hitting under the ball. This vs around 23pct previously. And hes approaching laughably a 50pct contact when swinging at strikes in the zone. ML avg is 82pct!

He's so far away from just succeeding in todays baseball.

Got to find a way to get on top of the ball. Is his stance crouched more than in 2019? Or just that fastballs high in the zone are being zipped past him when in 2019 pitchers didnt know they could just do that?

Btw, also checked JBJ statcast. Pretty much for him is he's not making contact on balls chased out of the zone vs his career numbers. Last year he had his highest chase contact pct. This year he's more than 10pct below his previous worst chase contact season. A full 20pct difference this year vs last.

[jonescm128]

I wasn’t really trying to defend Hiura. He wasn’t good in 2020 and has been historically terrible this year. Changes are needed and I personally think he should probably go back down to AAA to work on his swing.

 

I just thought your statement about him not being able to hit anything faster than 92 and calling him a bust already was off base.

 

Off base? How so?

 

In 2019 he hit .299 on pitches 92+ with 7 HRs, a .382 wOBA and a 26.5% K rate in 147 plate appearances, so yes, it was off base.

[Underachiever]

At this point, we are arguing a matter of degree. I don't think there is much disagreement that Hiura needs to be off the big league roster now. The disagreement seems to be that some are labeling him a bust, some want him traded for whatever you can get, some want him sent down to AAA, and some want him to go to a hitting lab. I just don't want to see another of his three-pitch at bats. They adjusted the intentional walk rule so that the pitchers don't have to throw the ball, they can change the rules and simply award Hiura a K without him having to leave the dugout.

[Devinep]

Despite playing 3rd base and having a career OPS over .800 in the minors, Zach Green is with his third organization and has a 14 ABs in the major leagues (and those came with the rebuilding, 85 loss Giants in 2019), there is a reason he is where he is.

 

I don't think teams should make changes just to make changes, or adhere to idiomatic expressions like "they can't be worse", "it's worth a chance" etc.

No, but they definitely should make changes when their 1B is OPSing under 500. Green would be another turd to throw at the wall and would only have to be not putrid to be an improvement.

[LouisEly]

Despite playing 3rd base and having a career OPS over .800 in the minors, Zach Green is with his third organization and has a 14 ABs in the major leagues (and those came with the rebuilding, 85 loss Giants in 2019), there is a reason he is where he is.

 

I don't think teams should make changes just to make changes, or adhere to idiomatic expressions like "they can't be worse", "it's worth a chance" etc.

No, but they definitely should make changes when their 1B is OPSing under 500. Green would be another turd to throw at the wall and would only have to be not putrid to be an improvement.

Exactly. It isn't about whether Green is going to be a star, it's about whether or not he's going to be better than what they already have because taking that chance doesn't cost anything in terms of prospects.

[brewmann04]

If he can bat over 200 it is an improvement

[ecjimg]

At least this guy was a prospect. The Yankees have called up former 14th rd pick Chris Gittens to play 1b

[RWeeksFan23]

For all the talk about Green, he's been awful lately and his season stats aren't even that good.

[timpep]

For all the talk about Green, he's been awful lately and his season stats aren't even that good.

 

His last 5 games haven't been good, but if you make it his last 7 games he's got 3 homers. I wouldn't say that a .921 OPS and leading his league in home runs would be considered stats that "aren't even that good", either.

 

I don't think he'll be an all-star, or probably even a starter for more than a season or two, but I would be shocked if he didn't OPS over .500 which is something Keston is having trouble doing.

[RWeeksFan23]

For all the talk about Green, he's been awful lately and his season stats aren't even that good.

 

His last 5 games haven't been good, but if you make it his last 7 games he's got 3 homers. I wouldn't say that a .921 OPS and leading his league in home runs would be considered stats that "aren't even that good", either.

 

I don't think he'll be an all-star, or probably even a starter for more than a season or two, but I would be shocked if he didn't OPS over .500 which is something Keston is having trouble doing.

Compare that .921 OPS to other known scrubs like Pablo Reyes, Jace Peterson, and Keston Hiura himself when he was down there. Plus from what I understand it's a very hitter-friendly league.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

For all the talk about Green, he's been awful lately and his season stats aren't even that good.

 

His last 5 games haven't been good, but if you make it his last 7 games he's got 3 homers. I wouldn't say that a .921 OPS and leading his league in home runs would be considered stats that "aren't even that good", either.

 

I don't think he'll be an all-star, or probably even a starter for more than a season or two, but I would be shocked if he didn't OPS over .500 which is something Keston is having trouble doing.

Compare that .921 OPS to other known scrubs like Pablo Reyes, Jace Peterson, and Keston Hiura himself when he was down there. Plus from what I understand it's a very hitter-friendly league.

So what is your threshold for good then? 1200 OPS?