2021 BBWAA HOF Ballot

[Fear The Chorizo]

I don't think Schilling is a deserving 1st ballot HOF, but I think his career is deserving of a HOF induction at some point based on the era he pitched in - even if it's simply based on postseason success and the Red Sox storyline alone...

 

And if merits of deserving enshrinement into a sports hall of fame delve too far from on-field accomplishments and turn into litmus tests attempting to judge morality/character/politics, you mightaswell just shut it down.

[TURBO]

I've also read the Cobb bio, my point was that he got in despite that reputation. It's safe say when he was elected for the Hall most voters had that view of him and put him in anyway.

 

Did most voters really have that view on him, or did they know at the time that the public view was false?

 

If the voters of that time period knew the true story about Ty Cobb, then it wouldn't have been an issue.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I've also read the Cobb bio, my point was that he got in despite that reputation. It's safe say when he was elected for the Hall most voters had that view of him and put him in anyway.

 

Did most voters really have that view on him, or did they know at the time that the public view was false?

 

If the voters of that time period knew the true story about Ty Cobb, then it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

Actually that's a good point, what I think is most likely is that they didn't know or didn't care seeing as he was elected in 1936. The false reputation came later, I think in the 60s from Al Stump.

 

In any case, even if Stump's stories were accurate (they're not), that wouldn't have stopped anybody from voting Cobb in back in 1936.

[Jopal78]

It's always tricky with players who had really long careers Were they the best of their era, or does the stat sheet look really good because of how long they played?

 

Wins are now devalued, but even so Schilling's 216 career wins is nothing special. Kenny Rogers also pitched 20 years and had more wins. While Schilling was a big time strike out pitcher at one point in his career with 3 season in excess of 300; his contemporaries Pedro, Maddux, Clemens, Randy Johnson were more prolific. Sabathia was also better with 25 less career strikeouts but over only 19 seasons. Schilling's career strikeout total will be passed by Verlander and Scherzer. Greinke and Kershaw will also likely pass him. Cole Hamels and Jon Lester with outside shots depending on how much longer they continue to play.

 

Schilling also amassed 3261 innings across his 20 seasons. He was bested by his contemporaries: Tom Glavine (4413 ip/22yrs) Kenny Rogers (3302 ip/20yrs), Andy Pettite (3316/18), David Wells (3439) and Sabathia (3577/19). Plus several non-HOF caliber pitchers demonstrated better durability and pitched more innings in fewer seasons: Mark Buerhle (3283/16), Bartolo Colon (3461/17).

 

Schilling also does not have Cy Young Hardware his HOF contemporaries have: Randy Johnson (5 CYA), Greg Maddux (4), Pedro Martinez (3), Glavine (2) and Smoltz (1).

 

If not for the Boston-centric media and the bloody sock, Schilling would viewed as a very good but not great pitcher.

[Underachiever]

I've also read the Cobb bio, my point was that he got in despite that reputation. It's safe say when he was elected for the Hall most voters had that view of him and put him in anyway.

 

Did most voters really have that view on him, or did they know at the time that the public view was false?

 

If the voters of that time period knew the true story about Ty Cobb, then it wouldn't have been an issue.

I think the sportswriters knew as much, if not more, in Cobb's day than they do now. They rode the same trains as the team. The perhaps-true story of Babe Ruth being chased through a train by a woman with a knife is one of many that have been passed down.

 

Anytime I think of the sportwriters being the gatekeepers, I think of that POS Bill Conlin.

[SeaBass]

Hall of Fame voting doesn't exist to recognize players, it's for sportswriters to inflate their egos. All hail the sportswriter, the true heroes of the game, the keepers of integrity. They should all vote themselves in and then write about it.

 

Yes this is my stance that Barry Bonds, Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa etc., should be in the Hall. MLB didn't care what they were doing until everything got exposed and Congress started having hearings. Then they were all ignorance and surprise and all the blame fell on the players rather than the culture that had gone on unabated for years and years.

[monty57]

If not for the Boston-centric media and the bloody sock, Schilling would viewed as a very good but not great pitcher.

 

That and the time with the Diamondbacks where he and Randy Johnson pretty much won the World Series by themselves. I'd probably vote him in. He had a borderline Hall of Fame career, and to me his post-season success stories put him over the top.

 

All-in-all, with the notable exceptions of Bonds and Clemens, this was a pretty weak class, so I'm not surprised that no one got in.

[Axman59]

 

Schilling was a fine pitcher during his career, and the fact that he stuck around for 20 years as an MLB pitcher is admirable. His numbers just don't jump off the page, though, at least to me.

 

If you look at Schilling's BRef page, his Hall of Fame Monitor has him above the level of an AVERAGE Hall of Famer by nearly every metric.

 

Schilling's body of work on a baseball field absolutely makes him Hall of Fame worthy.

[nate82]

If you are going to hold out on Bonds and Clemens why would you vote for La Russa who knew McGwire and Canseco were using steroids and benefited from it? The BBWAA is just insane on their reasoning if you wanted to hold them out after the first couple of years fine but this is just getting stupid now.

[JimH5]

Schilling is 26th all time in BRef pitcher WAR. He's behind Bob Gibson, ahead of Tom Glavine, Don Sutton, Roy Halladay and John Smoltz.

 

His Adjusted ERA+ is 127, same as Gibson & Tom Seaver, ahead of Jim Palmer, Smoltz, Juan Marichal and Bob Feller.

 

He has more than 3100 strikeouts, lead the league in wins twice, strikeouts twice, complete games 4 times, K/BB ratio 5 times.

 

He performed like a Hall of Famer, and the only thing holding him back is his post career conduct and the (proper) reluctance of some voters to look past some of the terrible things he's said and done.

 

Being inducted means you get the endorsement of the game, to stand before the world as a representative of their industry. That honor is significant. You get to speak before a big audience, and are let into a very exclusive club.

 

He was every bit a Hall of Famer on the field. He wouldn't be a borderline selection at all. But do the voters want him to get the game's highest honor? As unpredictable and ill-tempered as he has been, he could be an embarrassing stain on the HOF and the game for another 40 years.

 

There's nothing wrong with him having to wait this long. It's really up to him and how much he's willing to change his tone. The HOF will be fine whether he's inducted or not. He's a historically important player, and his exploits and artifacts (along with Bonds, Clemens, Pete Rose, A-Rod, etc) are already on display in the museum.

 

If he doesn't get in, it won't be without reason.

[logan82]

If you are going to hold out on Bonds and Clemens why would you vote for La Russa who knew McGwire and Canseco were using steroids and benefited from it? The BBWAA is just insane on their reasoning if you wanted to hold them out after the first couple of years fine but this is just getting stupid now.

But LaRussa didn't cheat like those guys. All he did was turn a blind eye or foster a culture of cheating.

[nate82]

If you are going to hold out on Bonds and Clemens why would you vote for La Russa who knew McGwire and Canseco were using steroids and benefited from it? The BBWAA is just insane on their reasoning if you wanted to hold them out after the first couple of years fine but this is just getting stupid now.

But LaRussa didn't cheat like those guys. All he did was turn a blind eye or foster a culture of cheating.

 

Which is worse than cheating. It is far worse to turn a blind eye to a cheater than it is to actually cheat.

[folly412]

It is strange seeing great, even some legendary players not make it in. But I'll always like that the MLB HOF is truly elite. Contrast with like the NFL Hall of Fame that puts a half dozen in every year, plus a couple of the old timer nominees who were merely above average players.

[TURBO]

But I'll always like that the MLB HOF is truly elite.

 

I think that is highly debateable...

[CheeseheadInQC]

It is strange seeing great, even some legendary players not make it in. But I'll always like that the MLB HOF is truly elite. Contrast with like the NFL Hall of Fame that puts a half dozen in every year, plus a couple of the old timer nominees who were merely above average players.

Until this year, MLB had been averaging about four per year in recent years. Outside of the one anniversary exception, the NFL has been capped at six or seven, which until recently also included coaches. The NFL has twice as many roster spots. I don't really see much difference here. In the realm of guys who are a coin-flip to get in, was Todd Helton a better first baseman than LeRoy Butler was a safety? I know it is tough to compare across sports, but relative to their contemporaries I'd say no.

[HiAndTight]

It is strange seeing great, even some legendary players not make it in. But I'll always like that the MLB HOF is truly elite. Contrast with like the NFL Hall of Fame that puts a half dozen in every year, plus a couple of the old timer nominees who were merely above average players.

 

 

I don't agree with you on the NFL HOF at all. There might be some QB's who aren't worthy who were elected decades ago, but there are more truly dominant players who don't get in because they played positions that didn't have real "stats."

 

So while the NFL may have Joe Namath, I'd respond with Harold Baines. Now if there's one that's flawed, it's the Basketball HOF...I have no clue what the criteria is to get into that.

[CheeseheadInQC]

It is strange seeing great, even some legendary players not make it in. But I'll always like that the MLB HOF is truly elite. Contrast with like the NFL Hall of Fame that puts a half dozen in every year, plus a couple of the old timer nominees who were merely above average players.

 

 

I don't agree with you on the NFL HOF at all. There might be some QB's who aren't worthy who were elected decades ago, but there are more truly dominant players who don't get in because they played positions that didn't have real "stats."

 

So while the NFL may have Joe Namath, I'd respond with Harold Baines. Now if there's one that's flawed, it's the Basketball HOF...I have no clue what the criteria is to get into that.

Basketball is an odd one simply because it isn't just an NBA Hall of Fame. But yah, it does produce some different results.

[sveumrules]

Schilling was a fine pitcher during his career, and the fact that he stuck around for 20 years as an MLB pitcher is admirable. His numbers just don't jump off the page, though, at least to me.

 

If not for the Boston-centric media and the bloody sock, Schilling would viewed as a very good but not great pitcher.

 

The character stuff is what it is, but Schilling is pretty objectively a top dozen pitcher at worst over the last 40 years. If 80 WAR & the best K/BB ratio in the post-integration era plus an 11-2 record with a 2.23 ERA in 133 postseason IP isnt enough to get into Cooperstown we might not ever see another pitcher inducted. Here is how I would group the pitchers I have seen in my lifetime...

 

(INNER CIRCLE)

Randy | 4135 IP | 75 ERA- | 73 FIP- | 176 K%+ | 99 BB%+ | 105 rWAR | 110 fWAR

Maddux | 5008 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 100 K%+ | 57 BB%+ | 123 rWAR | 117 fWAR

Pedro | 2827 IP | 66 ERA- | 68 FIP- | 168 K%+ | 78 BB%+ | 90 rWAR | 84 fWAR

Nolan | 5386 IP | 90 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 183 K%+ | 146 BB%+ | 89 rWAR | 107 fWAR

Clemens | 4916 IP | 70 ERA- | 71 FIP- | 150 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 142 rWAR | 134 fWAR

comments: Randy the best all time combo of stuff/peak/longevity/hair, Maddux the ideal "pitcher", Pedro had the highest highs but couldn't last, Nolan the template for everything to come & all the nonos, Roger prolly the best ever but dinged for various blemishes

 

(NEXT TIER)

Smoltz | 3473 IP | 81 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 130 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 80 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Schilling | 3261 IP | 80 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 139 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 81 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Halladay | 2749 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 71 rWAR | 65 fWAR

Mussina | 3562 IP | 82 ERA- | 79 FIP- | 121 K%+ | 61 BB%+ | 82 rWAR | 81 fWAR

Glavine | 4413 IP | 86 ERA- | 94 FIP- | 84 K%+ | 93 BB%+ | 88 rWAR | 67 fWAR

Brown | 3256 IP | 78 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 75 BB%+ | 73 rWAR | 77 fWAR

Pettitte | 3316 IP | 86 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 104 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 62 rWAR | 68 fWAR

Sabathia | 3577 IP | 86 ERA- | 87 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 89 BB%+ | 69 rWAR | 67 fWAR

comments: Smoltz is Schilling, Finkle is Einhorn. Halladay's peak gets him the next spot for me. Moose over Glavine on the basis of FIP. Kevin Brown allowed the lowest HR9 of the last 40 years among all SP, which seems kind of significant given the era. I'd vote for Andy & CC both, Sabathia a higher peak but Pettitte the postseason edge.

 

(STILL GOING)

Kershaw | 2333 IP | 63 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 135 K%+ | 76 BB%+ | 75 rWAR | 66 fWAR

Verlander | 2988 IP | 78 ERA- | 80 FIP- | 127 K%+ | 85 BB%+ | 77 rWAR | 72 fWAR

Scherzer | 2357 IP | 77 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 80 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 60 fWAR

Greinke | 2939 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 115 K%+ | 68 BB%+ | 68 rWAR | 63 fWAR

Sale | 1629 IP | 71 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 148 K%+ | 71 BB%+ | 45 rWAR | 45 fWAR

deGrom | 1169 IP | 67 ERA- | 67 FIP- | 133 K%+ | 73 BB%+ | 35 rWAR | 34 fWAR

Hamels | 2698 IP | 82 ERA- | 88 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Felix | 2729 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 119 K%+ | 87 BB%+ | 57 rWAR | 54 bWAR

comments: Kershaw on track for inner circle, Verlander has the edge on Fame but is essentially Kevin Brown, Scherzer/Greinke need a couple more good seasons to get out of Pettitte/Sabathia territory, can Sale put up another tree four years post TJ?, deGrom only 1700 IP short of Pedro's career, Cole/King Felix prolly in this next category...

 

(JUST MISSED)

Johan | 2025 IP | 74 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 81 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 46 fWAR

(Sandy | 2324 IP | 75 ERA- | 75 FIP- | 173 K%+ | 107 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR)

Gooden | 2800 IP | 90 ERA- I 83 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 94 BB%+ | 50 rWAR | 57 fWAR

Wells | 3439 IP | 93 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 97 K%+ | 56 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 58 fAR

Buehrle | 3283 IP | 87 ERA- | 93 FIP- | 78 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Cone | 2898 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 141 K%+ | 106 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 56 fWAR

SBRHGN | 2562 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 110 K%+ | 53 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR

Hudson | 3126 IP | 83 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 92 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 63 rWAR | 49 fWAR

Oswalt | 2245 IP | 79 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 112 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 54 rWAR | 53 fWAR

Cliffly | 2156 IP | 84 ERA- | 82 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 63 BB%+ | 46 rWAR | 48 fWAR

Sheets | 1428 IP | 87 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 60 BB%+ | 26 rWAR | 32 fWAR

Teddy | 1380 IP | 86 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 27 rWAR | 27 fWAR

comments: Johan is right on the line of last guy in/first guy out for me but I'd prolly go with IN since he's more or less contemporary Koufax, Doctor K is just out, kinda crazy how similar Boomer & Buehrle are, ok, just had to throw in the Brewers all time co-aces at the end for my own (& hopefully your) bemusement.

[clancyphile]

Schilling was a fine pitcher during his career, and the fact that he stuck around for 20 years as an MLB pitcher is admirable. His numbers just don't jump off the page, though, at least to me.

 

If not for the Boston-centric media and the bloody sock, Schilling would viewed as a very good but not great pitcher.

 

The character stuff is what it is, but Schilling is pretty objectively a top dozen pitcher at worst over the last 40 years. If 80 WAR & the best K/BB ratio in the post-integration era plus an 11-2 record with a 2.23 ERA in 133 postseason IP isnt enough to get into Cooperstown we might not ever see another pitcher inducted. Here is how I would group the pitchers I have seen in my lifetime...

 

(INNER CIRCLE)

Randy | 4135 IP | 75 ERA- | 73 FIP- | 176 K%+ | 99 BB%+ | 105 rWAR | 110 fWAR

Maddux | 5008 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 100 K%+ | 57 BB%+ | 123 rWAR | 117 fWAR

Pedro | 2827 IP | 66 ERA- | 68 FIP- | 168 K%+ | 78 BB%+ | 90 rWAR | 84 fWAR

Nolan | 5386 IP | 90 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 183 K%+ | 146 BB%+ | 89 rWAR | 107 fWAR

Clemens | 4916 IP | 70 ERA- | 71 FIP- | 150 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 142 rWAR | 134 fWAR

comments: Randy the best all time combo of stuff/peak/longevity/hair, Maddux the ideal "pitcher", Pedro had the highest highs but couldn't last, Nolan the template for everything to come & all the nonos, Roger prolly the best ever but dinged for various blemishes

 

(NEXT TIER)

Smoltz | 3473 IP | 81 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 130 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 80 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Schilling | 3261 IP | 80 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 139 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 81 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Halladay | 2749 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 71 rWAR | 65 fWAR

Mussina | 3562 IP | 82 ERA- | 79 FIP- | 121 K%+ | 61 BB%+ | 82 rWAR | 81 fWAR

Glavine | 4413 IP | 86 ERA- | 94 FIP- | 84 K%+ | 93 BB%+ | 88 rWAR | 67 fWAR

Brown | 3256 IP | 78 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 75 BB%+ | 73 rWAR | 77 fWAR

Pettitte | 3316 IP | 86 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 104 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 62 rWAR | 68 fWAR

Sabathia | 3577 IP | 86 ERA- | 87 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 89 BB%+ | 69 rWAR | 67 fWAR

comments: Smoltz is Schilling, Finkle is Einhorn. Halladay's peak gets him the next spot for me. Moose over Glavine on the basis of FIP. Kevin Brown allowed the lowest HR9 of the last 40 years among all SP, which seems kind of significant given the era. I'd vote for Andy & CC both, Sabathia a higher peak but Pettitte the postseason edge.

 

Really, looking at this, there is no statistical justification to exclude Schilling, who also has an iconic post-season moment (the bloody sock) to his credit.

 

(STILL GOING)

Kershaw | 2333 IP | 63 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 135 K%+ | 76 BB%+ | 75 rWAR | 66 fWAR

Verlander | 2988 IP | 78 ERA- | 80 FIP- | 127 K%+ | 85 BB%+ | 77 rWAR | 72 fWAR

Scherzer | 2357 IP | 77 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 80 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 60 fWAR

Greinke | 2939 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 115 K%+ | 68 BB%+ | 68 rWAR | 63 fWAR

Sale | 1629 IP | 71 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 148 K%+ | 71 BB%+ | 45 rWAR | 45 fWAR

deGrom | 1169 IP | 67 ERA- | 67 FIP- | 133 K%+ | 73 BB%+ | 35 rWAR | 34 fWAR

Hamels | 2698 IP | 82 ERA- | 88 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Felix | 2729 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 119 K%+ | 87 BB%+ | 57 rWAR | 54 bWAR

comments: Kershaw on track for inner circle, Verlander has the edge on Fame but is essentially Kevin Brown, Scherzer/Greinke need a couple more good seasons to get out of Pettitte/Sabathia territory, can Sale put up another tree four years post TJ?, deGrom only 1700 IP short of Pedro's career, Cole/King Felix prolly in this next category...

 

Would be interesting to look at some of the counting stats - making milestones (3000 K) would likely be the difference.

 

(JUST MISSED)

Johan | 2025 IP | 74 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 81 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 46 fWAR

(Sandy | 2324 IP | 75 ERA- | 75 FIP- | 173 K%+ | 107 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR)

Gooden | 2800 IP | 90 ERA- I 83 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 94 BB%+ | 50 rWAR | 57 fWAR

Wells | 3439 IP | 93 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 97 K%+ | 56 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 58 fAR

Buehrle | 3283 IP | 87 ERA- | 93 FIP- | 78 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Cone | 2898 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 141 K%+ | 106 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 56 fWAR

SBRHGN | 2562 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 110 K%+ | 53 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR

Hudson | 3126 IP | 83 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 92 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 63 rWAR | 49 fWAR

Oswalt | 2245 IP | 79 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 112 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 54 rWAR | 53 fWAR

Cliffly | 2156 IP | 84 ERA- | 82 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 63 BB%+ | 46 rWAR | 48 fWAR

Sheets | 1428 IP | 87 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 60 BB%+ | 26 rWAR | 32 fWAR

Teddy | 1380 IP | 86 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 27 rWAR | 27 fWAR

comments: Johan is right on the line of last guy in/first guy out for me but I'd prolly go with IN since he's more or less contemporary Koufax, Doctor K is just out, kinda crazy how similar Boomer & Buehrle are, ok, just had to throw in the Brewers all time co-aces at the end for my own (& hopefully your) bemusement.

 

Looking at Sheets in terms of the sabremetrics, he's not far off from the inner circle, and definitely in the inner tier on the ERA-/FIP-/K+/BB+ levels. The big difference is the IP - he's about 2000 short. Same arguably goes for Higuera. Same can be said for some of the "just missed" guys, too.

[Baldkin]

It shocked me that Torri Hunter got a higher percentage of votes than Jim Edmonds and will stick around on the ballot.

 

I dove in and came to realize that it is just because of the year he was put on there.

 

Edmonds never got his shot, coming in to a completely loaded ballot: 10 Hall of Famers(!!!) PLUS Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and Schilling!

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml

 

Either you're a hall of famer or you aren't, let the writers vote for however many they want to. Ballots should be public.

 

/endrant of how stupid the voting is for the HoF.

[RWeeksFan23]

What exactly did Schilling say/do that makes his character an issue? I only pay attention to on-field stuff, i don't keep up with stuff off the field.

[Underachiever]

What exactly did Schilling say/do that makes his character an issue? I only pay attention to on-field stuff, i don't keep up with stuff off the field.

To keep this thread from becoming derailed, you should probably just Google it.

[StearnsFTW]

Schilling was a fine pitcher during his career, and the fact that he stuck around for 20 years as an MLB pitcher is admirable. His numbers just don't jump off the page, though, at least to me.

 

If not for the Boston-centric media and the bloody sock, Schilling would viewed as a very good but not great pitcher.

 

The character stuff is what it is, but Schilling is pretty objectively a top dozen pitcher at worst over the last 40 years. If 80 WAR & the best K/BB ratio in the post-integration era plus an 11-2 record with a 2.23 ERA in 133 postseason IP isnt enough to get into Cooperstown we might not ever see another pitcher inducted. Here is how I would group the pitchers I have seen in my lifetime...

 

(INNER CIRCLE)

Randy | 4135 IP | 75 ERA- | 73 FIP- | 176 K%+ | 99 BB%+ | 105 rWAR | 110 fWAR

Maddux | 5008 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 100 K%+ | 57 BB%+ | 123 rWAR | 117 fWAR

Pedro | 2827 IP | 66 ERA- | 68 FIP- | 168 K%+ | 78 BB%+ | 90 rWAR | 84 fWAR

Nolan | 5386 IP | 90 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 183 K%+ | 146 BB%+ | 89 rWAR | 107 fWAR

Clemens | 4916 IP | 70 ERA- | 71 FIP- | 150 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 142 rWAR | 134 fWAR

comments: Randy the best all time combo of stuff/peak/longevity/hair, Maddux the ideal "pitcher", Pedro had the highest highs but couldn't last, Nolan the template for everything to come & all the nonos, Roger prolly the best ever but dinged for various blemishes

 

(NEXT TIER)

Smoltz | 3473 IP | 81 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 130 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 80 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Schilling | 3261 IP | 80 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 139 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 81 rWAR | 80 fWAR

Halladay | 2749 IP | 76 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 62 BB%+ | 71 rWAR | 65 fWAR

Mussina | 3562 IP | 82 ERA- | 79 FIP- | 121 K%+ | 61 BB%+ | 82 rWAR | 81 fWAR

Glavine | 4413 IP | 86 ERA- | 94 FIP- | 84 K%+ | 93 BB%+ | 88 rWAR | 67 fWAR

Brown | 3256 IP | 78 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 109 K%+ | 75 BB%+ | 73 rWAR | 77 fWAR

Pettitte | 3316 IP | 86 ERA- | 83 FIP- | 104 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 62 rWAR | 68 fWAR

Sabathia | 3577 IP | 86 ERA- | 87 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 89 BB%+ | 69 rWAR | 67 fWAR

comments: Smoltz is Schilling, Finkle is Einhorn. Halladay's peak gets him the next spot for me. Moose over Glavine on the basis of FIP. Kevin Brown allowed the lowest HR9 of the last 40 years among all SP, which seems kind of significant given the era. I'd vote for Andy & CC both, Sabathia a higher peak but Pettitte the postseason edge.

 

(STILL GOING)

Kershaw | 2333 IP | 63 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 135 K%+ | 76 BB%+ | 75 rWAR | 66 fWAR

Verlander | 2988 IP | 78 ERA- | 80 FIP- | 127 K%+ | 85 BB%+ | 77 rWAR | 72 fWAR

Scherzer | 2357 IP | 77 ERA- | 76 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 80 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 60 fWAR

Greinke | 2939 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 115 K%+ | 68 BB%+ | 68 rWAR | 63 fWAR

Sale | 1629 IP | 71 ERA- | 69 FIP- | 148 K%+ | 71 BB%+ | 45 rWAR | 45 fWAR

deGrom | 1169 IP | 67 ERA- | 67 FIP- | 133 K%+ | 73 BB%+ | 35 rWAR | 34 fWAR

Hamels | 2698 IP | 82 ERA- | 88 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 84 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Felix | 2729 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 119 K%+ | 87 BB%+ | 57 rWAR | 54 bWAR

comments: Kershaw on track for inner circle, Verlander has the edge on Fame but is essentially Kevin Brown, Scherzer/Greinke need a couple more good seasons to get out of Pettitte/Sabathia territory, can Sale put up another tree four years post TJ?, deGrom only 1700 IP short of Pedro's career, Cole/King Felix prolly in this next category...

 

(JUST MISSED)

Johan | 2025 IP | 74 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 142 K%+ | 81 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 46 fWAR

(Sandy | 2324 IP | 75 ERA- | 75 FIP- | 173 K%+ | 107 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR)

Gooden | 2800 IP | 90 ERA- I 83 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 94 BB%+ | 50 rWAR | 57 fWAR

Wells | 3439 IP | 93 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 97 K%+ | 56 BB%+ | 55 rWAR | 58 fAR

Buehrle | 3283 IP | 87 ERA- | 93 FIP- | 78 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 52 fWAR

Cone | 2898 IP | 84 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 141 K%+ | 106 BB%+ | 61 rWAR | 56 fWAR

SBRHGN | 2562 IP | 80 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 110 K%+ | 53 BB%+ | 60 rWAR | 55 fWAR

Hudson | 3126 IP | 83 ERA- | 90 FIP- | 92 K%+ | 83 BB%+ | 63 rWAR | 49 fWAR

Oswalt | 2245 IP | 79 ERA- | 78 FIP- | 112 K%+ | 65 BB%+ | 54 rWAR | 53 fWAR

Cliffly | 2156 IP | 84 ERA- | 82 FIP- | 114 K%+ | 63 BB%+ | 46 rWAR | 48 fWAR

Sheets | 1428 IP | 87 ERA- | 81 FIP- | 117 K%+ | 60 BB%+ | 26 rWAR | 32 fWAR

Teddy | 1380 IP | 86 ERA- | 85 FIP- | 128 K%+ | 88 BB%+ | 27 rWAR | 27 fWAR

comments: Johan is right on the line of last guy in/first guy out for me but I'd prolly go with IN since he's more or less contemporary Koufax, Doctor K is just out, kinda crazy how similar Boomer & Buehrle are, ok, just had to throw in the Brewers all time co-aces at the end for my own (& hopefully your) bemusement.

 

Thank you for posting this. So my gut was right on Schilling. I was also going to include Pettitte, so my gut was right there too.

 

Final answer: Rolen, Schilling, Pettitte.

[dlk9s]

Curt Schilling is a turd in my personal opinion but not voting him to the HOF because of political feelings is abusrd.

 

It's not his "political feelings." He is a piece of garbage. I'm sure there's a bunch of HOF'ers with whom I'd disagree politically, but Schilling has gone beyond politics and into the cesspool of just completely insane, dangerous BS. Plus he scammed people out of millions of dollars. He is not someone you want to honor or have representing the game.

 

Of course, some will ask, "It's a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line?"

 

Curt Schilling is a good place to draw the line.

 

If you want to be in the HOF, you don't have to be a perfect human being, but you have to at least be a human being.

[SRB]

Could the Hall of Fame be any more meaningless at this point? The writers' personal grudges have ruined its legitimacy beyond repair.

 

FWIW, I hate Schilling but he deserves to be in based on his career. But none of this matters anymore after Barry Bonds was not a unanimous first-ballot selection.