Bucks 2020 offseason thread

[sveumrules]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

For whatever it is or isn't worth, NBA.com had the Bucks bench 8th in scoring, 1st in rebounding, 10th in assists & 3rd in +/- last season.

[homer]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

For whatever it is or isn't worth, NBA.com had the Bucks bench 8th in scoring, 1st in rebounding, 10th in assists & 3rd in +/- last season.

 

Their bench was good in the regular season. The problem was that Bud used them too much in the playoffs when everyone else leans on their starters.

[thebruce44]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

I just can't make sense of this post so hopefully you can help me understand.

 

You are saying their depth sucked last year so we should upgrade the starting lineup to make the bench even worse?

 

I feel like the general consensus is that the Bucks had a deep team that allowed them to do well during the regular season, so they should sacrifice there for the starting 5- which helps come playoff time.

[HiAndTight]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

I just can't make sense of this post so hopefully you can help me understand.

 

You are saying their depth sucked last year so we should upgrade the starting lineup to make the bench even worse?

 

I feel like the general consensus is that the Bucks had a deep team that allowed them to do well during the regular season, so they should sacrifice there for the starting 5- which helps come playoff time.

 

 

The Bucks bench was objectively one of the best in the league....in the regular season. The problem is they didn't have impact players coming off the bench when you get deeper into the post-season. They didn't have a Jamal Crawford type. Or take the Heat series. They had Dunn, Robinson/Herro, Iguodala, Crowder, and Olynyk coming off the bench.

 

So in the regular season, we could come at you in waves and run you off the court, in the NBA when the game slows down, the bench didn't matter and the starting 5 wasn't good enough.

 

 

Still, while this was a good off-season, it has to leave a bad taste in your mouth. They made the wrong call last year in not extending Brogdon...and that was fine, we all justified it. That they didn't get a TPE was bad, but fine. But then this year bungling the Bogdanavic trade, it feels like this was the Bucks year to really make a couple of franchise-altering moves and they bungled it. They overpaid for Holliday, and that was fine because we thought we were underpaying for Bogdanavic and who cares at that point if you can throw out a starting lineup with those two in the backcourt.

 

I really hope this front office learns from this so they aren't blowing opportunities in the future to add the type of pieces that can put this team over the top. I also hope they don't give up on any promising young 23-year-old bigs who can shoot so they can bring in a 38-year-old washed-up vet.

 

 

Still...despite their best efforts to screw this all up, they did end up with a pretty good off-season.

 

 

The one signing that is really under the radar seems to be Forbes. Pop had some pretty complimentary things to say about him and he seems like the type of guy who can still get better. Jrue is an awesome upgrade(even over regular-season Bled).

[nodakfan17]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

[adambr2]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-bogdan-bogdanovic-giannis-antetokounmpo-040028104.html

 

Article says that Bogdanovic was Giannis' preferred addition this offseason and that confidence that Giannis will sign has been significantly impacted when the deal fell through.

[rickh150]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

For whatever it is or isn't worth, NBA.com had the Bucks bench 8th in scoring, 1st in rebounding, 10th in assists & 3rd in +/- last season.

 

Their bench was good in the regular season. The problem was that Bud used them too much in the playoffs when everyone else leans on their starters.

 

Very insightful.... didn't think about this before, but yeah.

[pacopete4]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-bogdan-bogdanovic-giannis-antetokounmpo-040028104.html

 

Article says that Bogdanovic was Giannis' preferred addition this offseason and that confidence that Giannis will sign has been significantly impacted when the deal fell through.

 

It’ll be a sad day when then Bucks can’t sign this guy and those front office bums that don’t know how to work in the NBA continue to keep their jobs.

[homer]

I feel like a lot of the Giannis talk lately is pushed by other teams that want to sign him.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The Bucks depth sucked last year. This isn't being said enough. Any upgrade to the starting 5 is worth it at the sacrifice of that bench. It wasn't good.

 

I just can't make sense of this post so hopefully you can help me understand.

 

You are saying their depth sucked last year so we should upgrade the starting lineup to make the bench even worse?

 

I feel like the general consensus is that the Bucks had a deep team that allowed them to do well during the regular season, so they should sacrifice there for the starting 5- which helps come playoff time.

 

I'm saying that their bench depth doesn't matter. Being 10 contributors deep doesn't matter. The playoffs are 7-8 man rotations and having your 9th best player put 18 minutes in doesn't help.

 

So I don't really care about that putting nearly all their eggs in the starting lineup basket. I feel like your last sentence is the exact same thing so I'm not sure what you couldn't make sense of.

[nodakfan17]

I feel like a lot of the Giannis talk lately is pushed by other teams that want to sign him.

Which team do you think filed the tampering complaint against the Bucks? Heat? Lakers? Warriors?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I feel like a lot of the Giannis talk lately is pushed by other teams that want to sign him.

Which team do you think filed the tampering complaint against the Bucks? Heat? Lakers? Warriors?

 

My guess is the Heat. They've been the team sniffing around Giannis the most, and Pat Riley seems just smarmy enough to do something like that.

[HiAndTight]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

 

 

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is.

 

I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

[HiAndTight]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/report-bogdan-bogdanovic-giannis-antetokounmpo-040028104.html

 

Article says that Bogdanovic was Giannis' preferred addition this offseason and that confidence that Giannis will sign has been significantly impacted when the deal fell through.

 

 

 

I have next to no faith this article is based on anything more than guessing. Everyone knew Bogdan wanted to play with Giannis and Giannis with him, we tried to get it done, Bogdan backed out. Not sure who's fault it is. I would guess the Kings, but maybe the Bucks were feeling themselves a little bit and they started talking too early.

 

Either way...just trying to get over how obnoxious it is that this deal couldn't get done because of loudmouths and hope that the Donte continues to develop(he basically lose his rookie year to injury) and try to look at the upside of the moves we did make.

 

 

But IF Giannis leaves, which I don't believe will happen, the Bucks are going to be a real sorry franchise for a while now.

[HiAndTight]

I feel like a lot of the Giannis talk lately is pushed by other teams that want to sign him.

Which team do you think filed the tampering complaint against the Bucks? Heat? Lakers? Warriors?

 

 

I THOUGHT the only team that could file a tampering charge was the team whose player had been tampered with and they had to pay for that.

I feel like I read that recently...and I'm probably getting that wrong. I would guess that the NBA hearing about a sign and trade 3 days before you're allowed to talk to other players would have investigated on its own.

[adambr2]

The administrative mistakes made by our FO is something that does need to be addressed. However, in regards to Bogdanovic, at least we're not the Kings.

 

We still have Wilson and a nice young talented player in DDV. The Kings now get none of that....and they still lost Bogdanovic. Ouch.

 

Still sucks to lose Bogdanovic, but let's not lose sight of the fact that keeping DiVincenzo is no small consolation. Hindsight being 20/20 I would have assumed before the Holiday trade that DDV would be a necessary piece.

[nodakfan17]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

 

 

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is.

 

I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

 

Apologies, it’s not my intent to sell Jrue short. I just don’t think he puts the team over the top. Looking back, here is the second best player on recent championship teams:

 

2020 Lakers: Anthony Davis

2019 Raptors: Lowry, Siakam, VanVleet, or Gasol?

2018 Warriors: Steph Curry

2017 Warriors: Steph Curry

2016 Cavaliers: Kyrie Irving

2015 Warriors: Thompson or Green?

2014 Spurs: Tim Duncan

2013 Heat: Dwyane Wade

2012 Heat: Dwyane Wade

2011 Mavericks: Jason Kidd

 

Would anyone here put Holiday or Middleton ahead of anyone on this list? (with the possible exception of that Raptors quartet)

[adambr2]

I'm not in total disagreement with Nodak. I'd respectfully question as to why the Pelicans weren't at least competing for conference championships in the West in the AD/Holiday era if Holiday is indeed a good enough second player.

[wildcat83]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

 

 

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is.

 

I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

 

The problem is Holiday is our second best player, and that’s not good enough. To win a title they needed a second super star. They don’t have the resources to bring one here and I don’t envision a scenario where one signs here. I think Giannis signs the extension and tries one last time to win here, but they will fall short again and he’ll demand the trade.

[HiAndTight]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

 

 

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is.

 

I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

 

Apologies, it’s not my intent to sell Jrue short. I just don’t think he puts the team over the top. Looking back, here is the second best player on recent championship teams:

 

2020 Lakers: Anthony Davis

2019 Raptors: Lowry, Siakam, VanVleet, or Gasol?

2018 Warriors: Steph Curry

2017 Warriors: Steph Curry

2016 Cavaliers: Kyrie Irving

2015 Warriors: Thompson or Green?

2014 Spurs: Tim Duncan

2013 Heat: Dwyane Wade

2012 Heat: Dwyane Wade

2011 Mavericks: Jason Kidd

 

Would anyone here put Holiday or Middleton ahead of anyone on this list? (with the possible exception of that Raptors quartet)

 

 

I'll put him over the Raptors trio and over Kyrie and over 38-year ol.d Tim Duncan and I'd DEFINITELY take him over a 38-year-old Jason Kidd. Kidd shot 36 pct, scored about 8 per game, and wasn't anywhere near the defensive player Jrue is. I'd put Kidd behind Chandler and maybe Marion on that team. 2011 Jason Kidd is basically Rajon Rondo right now.

 

But I just never buy this type of logic. The Spurs for a big chunk of their run had one true superstar and they played well around him and players fit in perfectly.

 

The game's not as simple as saying he's not as good as these #2's. Obviously AD, Steph, Clay, Wade, they're all far-far better players, but there are a lot of teams who've won titles without two superstars.

 

The Bucks may have won two years ago if they had Jrue and last year was funny, but who knows. Look at how far we've gotten with a black hole at PG.

[HiAndTight]

I’ll buy the argument that the Bucks should sacrifice bench depth for improving their starting 5 because good teams lean on their starters in the playoffs when games matter more.

 

The one thing I can’t reconcile is that Jrue Holiday was the best available upgrade. No disrespect to Jrue (I think he’s a decent player), but the current ownership group inherited their two best players from the previous regime. And the best player they’ve added in 6 years is Jrue Holiday?

 

 

I think you're really-really underestimating how good of a player Jrue Holliday is.

 

I think the addition of Holliday makes Middleton your 3rd best player.

 

The problem is Holiday is our second best player, and that’s not good enough. To win a title they needed a second super star. They don’t have the resources to bring one here and I don’t envision a scenario where one signs here. I think Giannis signs the extension and tries one last time to win here, but they will fall short again and he’ll demand the trade.

 

 

Disagree with the premise that you need two superstars to win a title. Plenty of teams have disproven that, but alright.

 

You think Giannis is going to sign an extension, THEN he's going to demand a trade when they don't win? And at that point, why would the Bucks go along? They'd control Giannis for FIVE more seasons and they'd have lost all their draft capital through that period of time.

 

 

Basketball is more than a 2 man game. Again, had Bledsoe been 80 pct of what he'd been in the regular season, we're likely playing in the NBA finals two years ago and beating the Warriors. So saying we CAN'T win with Jrue or Middleton as our #2/3 options, we've been competing the last two years with Middleton as our #2 option and our PG doing almost nothing but coming up short in the biggest moments.

 

I can't imagine people would be saying we're not good enough to win had we acquired Bogdan...an inferior player to Jrue Holiday, so obviously it comes down to quite a bit more than just our 2nd star.

 

The Bucks have 3 AS's now who all play defense and then some really nice pieces around them. I don't know if it'll be enough. I don't know how good the Nets will be with KD, how good the Heat will be, how the Lakers will be with LeBron getting closer to 40 or how good the Warriors will be without Klay all year(actually, I'm pretty sure they won't be good enough). But I know we're certainly talented enough to be in that mix...and who knows what happens in-season.

[nodakfan17]

Basketball is more than a 2 man game.

I agree, but the Lakers just won a title with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and a bunch of filler. They had 2 of the best 5 players in the world and they just bullied their way to a title. Even the 2018-19 Raptors had an emerging Pascal Siakam who was a 2nd Team All-NBA player this year. The formula is pretty clear. You need two All-NBA players to win a title - not just two All-Stars, but two of the best 15 players in the world.

 

My biggest complaint about the new ownership group (besides the cronyism and nepotism) is that they really haven’t improved the roster. They inherited their two best players from Senator Kohl. So after 6 years, here they sit on the verge of losing a generational talent with no championships, no cap space, and no assets.

[HiAndTight]

Basketball is more than a 2 man game.

I agree, but the Lakers just won a title with LeBron James, Anthony Davis, and a bunch of filler. They had 2 of the best 5 players in the world and they just bullied their way to a title. Even the 2018-19 Raptors had an emerging Pascal Siakam who was a 2nd Team All-NBA player this year. The formula is pretty clear. You need two All-NBA players to win a title - not just two All-Stars, but two of the best 15 players in the world.

 

My biggest complaint about the new ownership group (besides the cronyism and nepotism) is that they really haven’t improved the roster. They inherited their two best players from Senator Kohl. So after 6 years, here they sit on the verge of losing a generational talent with no championships, no cap space, and no assets.

 

 

Yeah, but Siakam wasn't a 2nd team All NBA player the year they won it. That's the key here. He DEVELOPED into that after. He took a big jump. They didn't have a 2nd player who was as good as Jrue the year they beat us. Lowry was a Bledsoe type player for most of his career, a guy who choked in the post-season.

 

And the formula isn't clear. You can win with a Superstar and then a couple of next-level stars and a really good supporting cast. I also don't see how they went from likely to sign him to "the verge of losing him," without him saying anything.

 

And they HAVE improved the roster...quite a bit. Not as much as we'd have liked, but you're underestimating what guys like Portis, Augustine, DD can do.

 

Not to mention, a 26-year-old who Pop said was the leader of the Spurs who's a 40 pct 3 point shooter.

Portis is a 6'10 big who just two years ago gave you 14/8 while shooting just under 40 from 3.

Augustine shot 42 pct from 3 from 2017-18 through 2018-'19.

 

And it's pretty much a given the Bucks are going to add an impact player who gets bought out at some time during next regular season.

 

 

 

 

The Bucks are a BETTER playoff team than they were the last two years and they were the best regular-season team, were up 2-0 on the Raptors, lost an OT game and another heartbreaker as the Raptors won the title, then lost to a Heat team that got hot this year and then suffered injuries as they got banged up in the post-season.

 

 

Again...if they were THAT close the last two years, the way they've improved 1-8...there's no reason they can't win. I absolutely believe they'd have beaten the Lakers. The Heat was just a very tough matchup. But history does NOT show that you need two All-NBA players to win a title.

 

And we should also add the caveat that Giannis is just 25 years old and they've given him more shooting and they will likely still add someone in-season.

 

 

But I go back to the same question. If they'd have signed Bogdan, would anyone be saying you "can't win without two Superstars?" I really doubt it since everyone was talking about how we had the best starting lineup in the NBA. But he was our 4th best player(assuming it would have gone through).

 

I don't believe DD, Augustine and Forbes are BETTER than Bogdan, but I don't think the drop off will be AS big. Especially if DD continues to improve as he actually compared favorably to Bogdan last year in RPM(though we can all agree a lot of that is due to playing with Giannis).

[nodakfan17]

Which of these rosters would you rather have?

 

Roster A:

- Giannis Antetokounmpo

- Khris Middleton

- #2 overall pick

- all of your own draft picks

- some cap space

- some filler

 

Roster B:

- Giannis Antetokounmpo

- Khris Middleton

- Jrue Holiday

- Brooke Lopez

- no first round picks

- no cap space

- some filler

 

I know this is an oversimplification, but you can’t tell me the Bucks are that much better off than they were when Lasry and Edens took over. They inherited their best two players and these guys act like they are God’s gift to Milwaukee.

[sveumrules]

When Lasry & Edens took over, the Bucks had been 8th Seed Champions for 20 years. This will be our third consecutive season as legit title contenders. That's enough for "much better off" in my book.

 

Yes, that is almost exclusively a result of the transformation Giannis has undergone since they bought the team (& kept it in Milwaukee & got a new arena built & made dowtown a destination again), but they've created an organizational culture & infrastructure that has Giannis at least considering staying here long term, which is pretty much all that matters.