Heart

[rwa12]

I love this argument, seeing as "heart" has fifty different definitions, and isn't quantifiable, no one can argue against it. If you don't like an argument against "heart", you simply have to look at a different aspect of it. "Heart" could be working harder to get better, I would define that as professionalism, and self-interest personally. Give me one solid definition of "heart", and I will prepare an argument for or against it. Otherwise, it is pointless... I think heart and luck belong in the same cliche boat with battling and grit

[bjamesw22]

Individual performance only matters when you are a stat head. I will take team performance any day over indivdual success. And I think it has been proven that they don't go hand in hand

 

Exactly why the US "Dream Team" got rocked. All individual performance, no team.

[rluzinski]

Individual performance only matters when you are a stat head. I will take team performance any day over indivdual success. And I think it has been proven that they don't go hand in hand

 

Proven when? You can put everyone's individual stats in a computer and it will spit out a team's record pretty close. it's going to be off some, obviously, since it's just a model but still. It seems to me that heart is always attributed to lucky wins. Like washington had a lot of heart when they had a great record and now they lost their heart.

 

Where did their heart go? A team wins they have heart. A team loses, they have no heart.

 

Heart = Chemistry = winning.

[nsimps]

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I would still seem to me that he would try and put up great numbers to get his way out of town.

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That's only an assumption. I would assume (without taking the time to pull out phsycology articles on the topic) that self-interest can only take you so far.

 

Take Sheffield's stats, in the first part of 1998 with Florida he only had a .892 OPS but with LA he posts a .979 OPS. Is this all statistical variation or did the fact that he wanted to be traded have something to do with his effort in Florida?

[brettac1]

I think heart has a lot to do with why Sheffield and Bonds haven't one anything.

 

Sheffield won a World Series, though, with the Marlins in 1997. Or was it Counsell's heart that won that one for him?

 

Take Sheffield's stats, in the first part of 1998 with Florida he only had a .892 OPS but with LA he posts a .979 OPS. Is this all statistical variation or did the fact that he wanted to be traded have something to do with his effort in Florida?

 

It could simply be variation, since that Florida sample is only 136 AB. And if he wanted out of LA, he didn't show it with that last season and the 1.000 OPS he posted.

[BrewCityUnit]

rwa12,

 

In my terms I would say heart means, taking pride in what you do no matter what profession you are in. Being disappointed when not meeting expectations, and always trying to do better while putting forth the effort and time required to meet my specific goals. Some people have it and others don't.

[BrewCityUnit]

Your right Brett, I was pretty sure he had one won title but no one brought it up so I couldn't remember for sure. You got me on that one. I would rather have a team of Jeters though than a team of Sheffields even though Sheffield has a higher OPS because all those Sheffields would cause so much chaos in the locker room that half of them would quit on the other ones

[nsimps]

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Give me one solid definition of "heart", and I will prepare an argument for or against it.

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I'll bite.

 

"Emotional investment in desiring success for self and others on team."

[brettac1]

Who does and who doesn't, though? Don't production and talent win the day over "heart", since you can easily identify them?

 

I would rather have a team of Jeters though than a team of Sheffields even though Sheffield has a higher OPS because all those Sheffields would cause so much chaos in the locker room that half of them would quit on the other ones

 

OK, let's look at this now. Say theoretically a team has 5500 AB in a season. You could use OXS to give you a simple runs scored calculation, so using Jeter and Sheffield career averages:

 

All-Sheffield: 1162 runs scored

All-Jeter: 963 runs scored

 

I'll take Sheff.

[rwa12]

Now I have 2 similar, but different definitions...but beware nsimps..2 posters have already stated that emotion and heart are unrelated

[nsimps]

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And if he wanted out of LA, he didn't show it with that last season and the 1.000 OPS he posted.

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Except for the fact that it was a contract year in which he was to become a free agent.

[splitterpfj]

Ok, I can't quantify it any better than anyone else, but I know it when I see it.

 

It's a different sport, but still...........heart = Brett Favre, lack of heart = Cletidus Hunt.

[brettac1]

Except for the fact that it was a contract year in which he was to become a free agent.

 

He produced, didn't he? There really aren't any seasons in which you could say he didn't, aside from those when he was 20-23 or so, in which a lot of guys fresh out of HS would struggle.

[BrewCityUnit]

Brett, I knew you would, but I'll stick with the Jeters and take my chances.

 

Did you watch the Olympics last summer. On paper why didn't the USA win by every game??????

 

The reason they steamrolled early is because players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley, Stockton, Malone all have heart

[rwa12]

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In my terms I would say heart means, taking pride in what you do no matter what profession you are in. Being disappointed when not meeting expectations, and always trying to do better while putting forth the effort and time required to meet my specific goals. Some people have it and others don't.

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I will go on a limb, and say for the most part, athletes take pride in their work and do not try to embarass themselves. Does the display of disappointment have to be public? Do they have to show others that they are upset to meet this qualification? I am sure Magruder tries very hard to meet the team's goals, but at some point natural ability speaks louder than trying hard

[dadofandrew]

I find it funny that someone is using "Barry Neffield" to argue for the existence of heart. Ironic because, both Barry Bonds and Gary Sheffield are outstanding players, and will both be Hall of Famers someday.

 

If anything, they prove how unimportant heart is, and how talent wins games.

[nsimps]

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Who does and who doesn't, though? Don't production and talent win the day over "heart", since you can easily identify them?

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It depends on what you mean by "win the day"? Should contracts be awarded based on heart? No. Is heart magically going to make a .600 OPS guy a 1.000 OPS guy? No.

 

On the other hand, to assume that one's heart (as I defined it) can not affect a player by some degree is equally silly. The fact that we can not say an Isolated Heart Factor of 2 will adjust a player's OPS by 50 points and an IsoHF of 8 will affect it by 20 is not important to identifying wether or not it has bearing.

[BrewCityUnit]

Do you want a guy on your team who only produces because it will make him more money. I don't. I want the guy who will put his team's goals ahead of his own and there are plenty of people with or near Sheffields talent who will do that.

[AJAY]

It's actually spelled "Hart" http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/images/players/mugshot/ph_430611.jpg

[nsimps]

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If anything, they prove how unimportant heart is, and how talent wins games.

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Which proves why the Dodgers lost the 88 World Series.

[BrewCityUnit]

You are missing the point. Obviosly talent will show up in the stat books and is a factor but without heart where does talent get you. For every Bonds and Sheffield in the hall there will be a Jeter and Schilling.

 

 

I thought players played the game to win titles, not make the Hall.

[brettac1]

I agree with that. If all the other variables are equal (talent, age, performance, injury history, etc.), then you could use something like your interpretation of "heart" to determine who you would prefer to acquire. When all things aren't equal, like normal, you need to take the guy who is a better player when measured conventionally with statistics.

 

For every Bonds and Sheffield in the hall there will be a Jeter and Schilling.

 

Schilling is often considered selfish and a drama queen, and a lot of his teammates don't like him. Boston doesn't care because he's good.

 

I thought players played the game to win titles, not make the Hall.

 

Show me one player who singlehandedly won a title. There isn't one. All players need talented players surrounding them.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Obviosly talent will show up in the stat books and is a factor but without heart where does talent get you. For every Bonds and Sheffield in the hall there will be a Jeter and Schilling. ]

 

Well, that sounds like a 1:1 talent:heart ratio to me.

[nsimps]

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I agree with that. If all the other variables are equal (talent, age, performance, injury history, etc.), then you could use something like your interpretation of "heart" to determine who you would prefer to acquire. When all things aren't equal, like normal, you need to take the guy who is a better player when measured conventionally with statistics.

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I'm sorry I didn't convey my point earlier with more clarity, but there must be some understanding that someones willingness to succeed can translate into actual performance such as hustling out a double affects SLG, albiet in a small way.

[bjamesw22]

All players need talented players surrounding them.

 

Except when they can't perform coherently because they don't give a crap about about anyone else the outcome isn't as efficient as it would if that same talented person had "heart."