Packers 2020 team discussion

[OldHeidelberg]

I thought it was odd the line shifted to the Bears by a point this morning and then just a few minutes ago thought I should check the injury report. This really sucks, we can survive it I guess but it's a big hit to our SB hopes for sure.

 

It takes the Packers from having likely the best offensive line in football to probably middle of the pack. It is very fortunate that the offensive line depth is in a much better place this year than it's been in previous seasons. While we're going to see a fall-off going to a line of Turner-Patrick-Linsley-Jenkins-Wagner or Jenkins-Patrick-Linsley-Turner-Wagner, it isn't as bad as previous years when suffering an offensive line injury. Also, Lafleur's offense is generally much more apologetic to offensive linemen than McCarthy's was.

 

Yes, we have been pretty fortunate with injuries this season so can survive a major hit like this, hopefully not a bad tear with other ligaments damaged and he can get back early next season. I wonder what this means for plans to release Wagner/Turner to free up cap room though. Didn't they go with Turner at LT when Bak was out earlier this year?

 

It also just occurred to me that the last 2(Jordy) non QB/K that we gave a large 3rd contract to almost immediately tore their ACL. oof

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I thought it was odd the line shifted to the Bears by a point this morning and then just a few minutes ago thought I should check the injury report. This really sucks, we can survive it I guess but it's a big hit to our SB hopes for sure.

 

It takes the Packers from having likely the best offensive line in football to probably middle of the pack. It is very fortunate that the offensive line depth is in a much better place this year than it's been in previous seasons. While we're going to see a fall-off going to a line of Turner-Patrick-Linsley-Jenkins-Wagner or Jenkins-Patrick-Linsley-Turner-Wagner, it isn't as bad as previous years when suffering an offensive line injury. Also, Lafleur's offense is generally much more apologetic to offensive linemen than McCarthy's was.

 

Yes, we have been pretty fortunate with injuries this season so can survive a major hit like this, hopefully not a bad tear with other ligaments damaged and he can get back early next season. I wonder what this means for plans to release Wagner/Turner to free up cap room though. Didn't they go with Turner at LT when Bak was out earlier this year?

 

It also just occurred to me that the last 2(Jordy) non QB/K that we gave a large 3rd contract to almost immediately tore their ACL. oof

 

Yeah, Wagner just went from a certain cap casualty to likely a good bet to be back next year. That is going to make re-signing guys such as Jones and King all that much harder.

 

It is also likely that tackle will be addressed early in the 2021 draft.

 

Regarding this season, I wonder if Veldheer could be poached from the Colts practice squad?

[Outlander]

Yeah, this is a totally ridiculous debate to engage in before we even have a clue what the cap is going to look like...which we don't right now, but even we assumed it was going to drop, even an NFL neophyte understands that there are a million and one ways to manipulate the cap, so obviously you do as well. You could sign Jones for a 5 year 75 million dollar deal and his cap hit could be less than 5 million for next year. They could create cap space a dozen different ways.

Absolutely, if the Packers really want to extend Jones it is attainable, especially since year 1 is always the lowest cap number in a long term contract. Certainly more feasible than giving Jones the franchise tax as has been suggested. With that said, I do think they move on. Also agree that it is a difficult subject to debate and lay out a plan because nobody does know what the cap will be in 2021. Any expert saying with certainty that it will be $175 is blowing smoke.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

At least the Packers have done this already this year.

[CheezWizHed]

Mack generally stays at the same spot (over RT), right? I don't remember him moving over LT very much. If that is true, I'd prefer to have Wagner (RT) and Turner(LT) as our Tackles and keep Jenkins/Linsley/Patrick inside holding off Hicks.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Mack generally stays at the same spot (over RT), right? I don't remember him moving over LT very much. If that is true, I'd prefer to have Wagner (RT) and Turner(LT) as our Tackles and keep Jenkins/Linsley/Patrick inside holding off Hicks.

 

The thought of having Wagner lined up across from Mack scares the living daylights out of me, to be honest. He's been pretty solid for the most part this year, but has been susceptible to speed rushers, and that is Mack's whole game. Turner handles those type of rushers more effectively.

 

Also, Jenkins is the team's most talented lineman, so it would make sense to put him in the best spot to use that talent, at either LT or RT to go against Mack.

[CheezWizHed]

Jones has a fair amount of catches at UTEP - 28 as a sophomore, 30 as a senior. What I remember from his rookie year (and Williams) was both needing to learn to pass protect - especially with Jones being smaller. Williams had 27 receptions as a freshman, then it decreased each year - which speaks more to his usage than his ability.

 

Dillon by contrast only had 13 receptions last year compared to 318 rushes. But as a team, the highest amount of receptions for the year was only 29. The offense averaged 50.2 rushes vs 23.5 passes (12.4 completed) per game. This wasn't a passing offense.

 

I just find it disingenuous to say that he is a big guy, so he must not be able to catch the ball. Still in limited chances but he looked pretty comfortable out there to me.

[HiAndTight]

Yeah, this is a totally ridiculous debate to engage in before we even have a clue what the cap is going to look like...which we don't right now, but even we assumed it was going to drop, even an NFL neophyte understands that there are a million and one ways to manipulate the cap, so obviously you do as well. You could sign Jones for a 5 year 75 million dollar deal and his cap hit could be less than 5 million for next year. They could create cap space a dozen different ways.

Absolutely, if the Packers really want to extend Jones it is attainable, especially since year 1 is always the lowest cap number in a long term contract. Certainly more feasible than giving Jones the franchise tax as has been suggested. With that said, I do think they move on. Also agree that it is a difficult subject to debate and lay out a plan because nobody does know what the cap will be in 2021. Any expert saying with certainty that it will be $175 is blowing smoke.

 

 

Well...this got me suspended, [sarcasm]so be careful agreeing[/sarcasm]!

 

They could also use the transition tag. I have doubts about how strong the market will be for him or if another team is willing to pay him like the Saints and Vikings paid their respective studs. That gives the Packers the ability to match if he signs a below-market deal. The problem there is a team could make the first year a bigger hit.

 

But without actually knowing what the cap's going to be, we're all just guessing. The only thing the experts have projected is that the cap will be at the lowest 175, the floor they agreed upon before the season.

 

Personally, I think it'd probably be best to let Jones walk if he does get a deal north of 12 per. Even if they do compromise on the cap, they've still got a lot of RFA's that are going to be important like Tonyan, Sullivan, Lazard to go with the bigger name FA's like King and Linsley.

[HiAndTight]

Jones has a fair amount of catches at UTEP - 28 as a sophomore, 30 as a senior. What I remember from his rookie year (and Williams) was both needing to learn to pass protect - especially with Jones being smaller. Williams had 27 receptions as a freshman, then it decreased each year - which speaks more to his usage than his ability.

 

Dillon by contrast only had 13 receptions last year compared to 318 rushes. But as a team, the highest amount of receptions for the year was only 29. The offense averaged 50.2 rushes vs 23.5 passes (12.4 completed) per game. This wasn't a passing offense.

 

I just find it disingenuous to say that he is a big guy, so he must not be able to catch the ball. Still in limited chances but he looked pretty comfortable out there to me.

 

 

I haven't seen anyone make that argument. I've seen people say he catches the ball well...for a big guy. That would be praising him, not denigrating him as you're taking it.

 

Not many big backs are used much in the passing game. Backs like Brandon Jacobs, Bettis, Henry...whoever.

 

The qualifier "for a big guy," is simple. He obviously hasn't shown he can catch the ball like a Kamara, Cook, Jones, C-Mac. So if you said he caught the ball well as a RB, what evidence is there for that? That he caught a couple of passes that were out in front of him? A screen that was very low?

 

 

If he shows in the future he can come out of the backfield and run a wheel route and make a contested catch in coverage on a ball over his head, then that'll change our opinion. However, as you pointed out, he didn't get many catches at BC(mostly because he was their main offense) and he's got 1 catch this year(and 2 more wiped out). So I don't know how else you'd describe his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield at this point in his career.

[HiAndTight]

Mack generally stays at the same spot (over RT), right? I don't remember him moving over LT very much. If that is true, I'd prefer to have Wagner (RT) and Turner(LT) as our Tackles and keep Jenkins/Linsley/Patrick inside holding off Hicks.

 

The thought of having Wagner lined up across from Mack scares the living daylights out of me, to be honest. He's been pretty solid for the most part this year, but has been susceptible to speed rushers, and that is Mack's whole game. Turner handles those type of rushers more effectively.

 

Also, Jenkins is the team's most talented lineman, so it would make sense to put him in the best spot to use that talent, at either LT or RT to go against Mack.

 

 

It's an absolutely brutal injury. Not only do you obviously have to replace him, but it puts more strain on everyone along the OL. Now instead of sliding your protections to the right to help Wagner/Turner at RT, you can't do that.

 

If we could sign Veldheer, that would great. He played outstanding for us last year. But each team can protect 4 guys on their PS each week. My guess would be that Veldheer would be among those and will likely be on the active roster since the Colts just lost their start LT to a season-ending injury as well.

 

At this point, I'd go with Jenkins at LT. As you said, he's the most talented, he's already shown he can play on the edge. I don't understand why he's not a tackle to begin with. I guess it'd likely be his feet, but that's not something I can see from the game on the TV.

 

 

This really sucks. It sucks for Bahk, it sucks the team. This was as confident as I'd been in a Packers team in a long time. Hopefully, they can overcome this. With Dillon's little coming out party vs the Titans, if the Packers can get through Chicago and get a by, they'll have 3 healthy backs and hopefully, that'll take a lot of pressure off whoever replaces Bahk and the OL as a whole.

[HiAndTight]

But you want me to find a way to create cap space for 2021? Give Rodgers more guaranteed money and extend his contract for 2 or 3 more years. There...that could be 10+ million in cap room.

Cut Wagner, Kirksey, Turner, Smith....lots of cap room.

 

Most of the cap experts are now on board with assuming a $175 million salary cap. Yes, it's possible they're all wrong, but they're usually not. If they're right, your cuts above would give the Packers.... $800,000 in cap space. They're $21 million over a $175 million cap, and your cuts free up $21.8 million.

 

Perhaps to your point, I probably should have used the qualifier of 'realistic'. I.E., it's not realistic to assume they'll cut both of their viable options at RT to rely presumably on a draft pick to start there in a year they want to be competitive. You could also technically cut Amos and Davante Adams and free up cap space, but again, that's not realistic. You'd have to have significant other movement to re-sign or tag Jones and still have room to sign your draft picks, and there's not much left there. Possible? Yes. Realistically possible? Probably not.

 

Also potentially not realistic is another restructure of Rodgers. The Packers have managed to have a major out on his contract after next season, which logically corresponds with the time they presumably would look to move on from Rodgers and shift to Love. Could they push that out further? Sure. Would they, when things are already a bit dicey for them pending determination on the cap in 2022, and with your hand-picked guy likely ready to jump in at QB in that exact window? Possible, but I'm not sure it's realistic to think they want to do that with a 40-year old. This season may have completely changed their though process though, as I would bet he's surpassed even their expectations this season.

 

In the end, we're likely debating semantics. Is it possible that Jones would sign a deal with a $1million base for 2021 with only a $20million signing bonus and thus less guaranteed money than Kamara or Cook? Yes, it's possible. Is it realistic? Probably not. So, if your point is that it shouldn't have been called "not even an option" by the initial poster, you're probably right. But calling it infeasible, or unwise, or simply 'not going to happen because of their cap situation and the way the front office runs the team', that's extremely accurate, IMO.

 

And that doesn't even get into a debate about whether Jones is worth a 2nd contract or not...

 

Now watch them announce 9 restructures and an extension for Jones next week.

 

 

I don't know if that's the case. That's just the basement the NFL and the NFLPA have agreed upon. That's the worst-case scenario and the only known at this point.

 

There's really no "projecting" the cap this year because they're not using the revenue from this year to come up with the number. So it's just guessing based on the absolute minimum we know it'll be.

 

 

That said, if they do go with the 175 million dollar cap this next year, it's going to see a massive jump the following year. As in potentially a 100 million dollar jump up to 275. This is why I've always argued that I think the two sides will come together to mitigate the cap hits so we don't see veterans flood the FA market and then get paid 40 cents on the dollar relative to what they'd normally expect.

 

I will get into the debate if the Packers should...and I don't think they should. I don't think they should unless you can sign him to a big discount and that doesn't appear to be the case. If he gets 15-17 million per, I'd let him walk and it wouldn't be a hard decision. But I believe Gute and MLF and the Packers value Jones more than maybe you or I would...and I do think negotiating in the season was telling(Even if they could not agree).

 

Unless they think they're better served using it on King or Linsley, put the transition tag on him. Worst case, he signs it and you have to pay ~8 million for one more season and create more space. Most likely, he tests the market, and if he signs a Melvin Gordon like deal(really just a cheaper than expected short term deal) you have the option to match.

 

But it's not just semantics. I do believe the Packers are still interested in signing Jones and I think Jones would be happy to return here. As it stands, we likely won't know for 3 months what the Caps even going to be, so it's that much more difficult to know.

 

The Packers have managed to have a major out on his contract after next season, which logically corresponds with the time they presumably would look to move on from Rodgers and shift to Love.

 

I believe this is a media-driven narrative. People looked at Clarks' contract, they looked at Rodgers and they said, "that's probably when they'll cut him." I doubt it would have even entered anyone's thought if they hadn't signed Love and I really really hope the Packers are not still 'planning' on moving on from Rodgers after next year because they put a plan in place. Things change. Rodgers has been nearly flawless.

Also, that was also before this year and he's gone out and had arguably the greatest year in Packers history for a QB and it'd be just ONE year following said MVP season. Not to mention, the "out" 20 million in dead cap space.

 

 

I think it was much more likely that the Packers were looking at their contracts and thought the year the New TV deal kicks in, we'll have more room to operate and be able to absorb a larger cap hit, not a grand plan to move on from the best player in their history while he's still playing at his best.

[homer]

Yeah, this is a totally ridiculous debate to engage in before we even have a clue what the cap is going to look like...which we don't right now, but even we assumed it was going to drop, even an NFL neophyte understands that there are a million and one ways to manipulate the cap, so obviously you do as well. You could sign Jones for a 5 year 75 million dollar deal and his cap hit could be less than 5 million for next year. They could create cap space a dozen different ways.

Absolutely, if the Packers really want to extend Jones it is attainable, especially since year 1 is always the lowest cap number in a long term contract. Certainly more feasible than giving Jones the franchise tax as has been suggested. With that said, I do think they move on. Also agree that it is a difficult subject to debate and lay out a plan because nobody does know what the cap will be in 2021. Any expert saying with certainty that it will be $175 is blowing smoke.

 

 

Well...this got me suspended, [sarcasm]so be careful agreeing[/sarcasm]!

 

.

 

It was your tone that got you a timeout. Specifically, the phrase "Even a neophyte understands..." Be less condescending when you disagree with people.

[wallus]

Good call on signing that extension David.

[HiAndTight]

 

It was your tone that got you a timeout. Specifically, the phrase "Even a neophyte understands..." Be less condescending when you disagree with people.

 

 

My intention was to imply if people new to the NFL understand how the cap works, surely someone who knows the sport as well as the poster I was answering understands how you can create salary-cap space.

 

I thought the tone was pretty much in line with the "I'd love to see your math" comment.

[HiAndTight]

Good call on signing that extension David.

 

 

Yeah, good for Bahk...bad timing for the Packers. Had they waited another month, he probably still gets extended but obviously not for nearly as much.

 

Beyond the immediate issues it creates, I wonder what it'll mean for their extremely athletic young project Yosh Nijman. Can they get him ready to go by next year? Do they use the 1st rounder on tackle(which is never a bad idea if you hit as you can always find a place to play a talented tackle once Bahk comes back)?

 

Maybe this changes the course of Jenkins career as well. I'd assume he'd be given a chance to play tackle. Runyan's another guy who could get a shot.

[PinaMadness]

Now that the #1 seed is wrapped up, the downside is we're probably going to be playing Tampa Bay in the divisional round. The one team I want no part of.

[pacopete4]

Back go back 13 win seasons. 2 seed and then a 1 seed. NFC champions to ????

 

Fun stuff!

[sveumrules]

Score thirty two tree points da next tree games & dat's dat.

[pacopete4]

Kudos to the Packers front office. They’re the only franchise to draft a first round QB in 2020 and make the playoffs.

[sveumrules]

Kudos to the Packers front office. They’re the only franchise to draft a first round QB in 2020 and make the playoffs.

 

If drafting a QB in the first round provides your incumbent QB even the tiniest modicum of inspiration to turn in an MVP season...does that mean it paid some dividends in year one?

[pacopete4]

Kudos to the Packers front office. They’re the only franchise to draft a first round QB in 2020 and make the playoffs.

 

If drafting a QB in the first round provides your incumbent QB even the tiniest modicum of inspiration to turn in an MVP season...does that mean it paid some dividends in year one?

 

I think the front office is deserving of a ton of praise that it most likely won't get from this fan base. A fan base that doesn't appreciate much.

[homer]

Rodgers TD passes: 48

JK Scott punts: 46

[homer]

Davante Adams caught more touchdown passes (18) than Mason Crosby had field goal attempts (16).

[PinaMadness]

Rodgers TD passes: 48

JK Scott punts: 46

We now live in an age where teams go for it on fourth down more often. I'm sure it will happen more and more.

[nodakfan17]

Davante Adams caught more touchdown passes (18) than Mason Crosby had field goal attempts (16).

Crosby finished with a perfect FG%. I hope he makes the All-Pro team.