The Omar Narvaez experience

[Underachiever]

For what its worth, my wife would be disappointed if Nottingham is not back next year.

 

Personally, I liked his enthusiasm on strike-outs and energy behind the plate. But I'm guessing that isn't what you are referring to...

I think she has more interest in him as a pitcher than a catcher.

[Outlander]

If they are looking to cut costs then not paying two arbitration catchers is one way to do that.

[CheezWizHed]

I wonder if Pina might be a trade piece this year?

[djoctagone]

$3mil+ to have a catcher sit in AAA and have two right handed hitting catchers on the MLB squad? I really doubt they do that. Guessing the league minimum catcher is the one going to AAA if they hold all three next year (Nottingham).

that's assuming that nottingham clears outright waivers. that's the only way he can be assigned to the minor leagues (barring a placement on the major league injured list).

 

there are risks in claiming a catcher on waivers at the end of spring training and adding him to your major league roster--he has to learn a whole new pitching staff. that might allow nottingham to pass through outright waivers.

 

travis shaw had a higher salary than omar narvaez when he was optioned in 2019. and let's be real: had there been a legit minor league system this year, narvaez would've been optioned to give him time to work things out.

[Jopal78]

I wonder if Pina might be a trade piece this year?

 

Nobody is going to trade for Manny Pina.

 

He's had some memorable hits/homers for the Brewers over the years, but they've been trying to replace him for 2 seasons. Additionally, Pina will turn 34 next year, not an age where the majority of catchers continue to thrive. Meanwhile Narvaez is 28 and Nottingham is 25. Finally, Pina will seek a raise from his 1.8 million dollar salary in 2020. On a team that is likely to proceed as if "strapped for cash" he's likely to be non-tendered.

 

Given they gave up a low-level prospect and the 64th overall pick in the draft to get Narvaez, its unlikely they option him to the minors. Similar deal with Nottingham. He has has close to 600 games in the minors, its time to see if the wind up with anything from the Khris Davis trade. Also, Nottingham is seemingly the personal catcher of Burnes bolstering his chances for a roster spot in 2021. Even if Pina is offered arbitration, they'd likely release him before breaking camp and his salary becoming guaranteed.

[tmwiese55]

That all makes sense. However, as long as Pina is healthy he's just flat out better than Nottingham. He's gold glovish-level on D and adequate hitting. He's a very good safety net to have if Narvaez flops again. Essentially it keeps our 'floor' at C relatively high. Nottingham would open up a big risk of catcher being a complete black hole, like it was this year. But of course the money stuff is important so we'll see. Perhaps that's where the spring training decision on Pina could come in, if Narvaez is 'back' and management is confident he'll be good it's much easier to save that money on Pina.

[djoctagone]

we should also bear in mind that we never got to see how david stearns and craig counsell would have utilized a 26th man over the course of a 162-game season. pitching staffs were supposed to be capped at 13, which is the number of pitchers that the brewers have carried the majority of the time in recent full seasons, so that 26th man would've most likely been a position player.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I wonder if Pina might be a trade piece this year?

 

Nobody is going to trade for Manny Pina.

 

He's had some memorable hits/homers for the Brewers over the years, but they've been trying to replace him for 2 seasons. Additionally, Pina will turn 34 next year, not an age where the majority of catchers continue to thrive. Meanwhile Narvaez is 28 and Nottingham is 25. Finally, Pina will seek a raise from his 1.8 million dollar salary in 2020. On a team that is likely to proceed as if "strapped for cash" he's likely to be non-tendered.

 

Given they gave up a low-level prospect and the 64th overall pick in the draft to get Narvaez, its unlikely they option him to the minors. Similar deal with Nottingham. He has has close to 600 games in the minors, its time to see if the wind up with anything from the Khris Davis trade. Also, Nottingham is seemingly the personal catcher of Burnes bolstering his chances for a roster spot in 2021. Even if Pina is offered arbitration, they'd likely release him before breaking camp and his salary becoming guaranteed.

 

Plus Nottingham will be out of options next year. It's put up or shut up time for him.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't think we should dismiss Narvaez. Look, he came to a new team where he had to learn the pitching staff and with the reputation as a sub par defensive catcher. So I'm guessing his offense wasn't his main concern reporting to spring training. Then spring training was cut short, and he sat around for 3 and a half months and had 3 weeks to prepare for a season with just a few inter-squad games on one exhibition against another team. He hadn't seen much of the pitchers in the NL Central either. His numbers against AL pitching this year were much less ghastly: .242/.390/.242. New team + short season + less time preparing + slow start = player putting extra pressure on himself. If you buy that Yelich has excuses, you have to buy that Narvaez had more.

 

Looking at Narvaez' numbers, the interesting thing is that when he was ahead in the count, he had a 1.033 OPS. Problem is he was almost always behind in counts. With zero strikes, he was a .333/.500/.600 hitter. There might not be a worse hitter in baseball with two strikes than Narvaez though. He hit just .108 with 39 K's when pitchers got to two strikes. Was it that he was taking strikes early in counts or swinging out of the zone or both the reason he got behind so much?

[homer]

I wonder if some guys just need more live pitching from dudes other than teammates to really get ready for the season?

[ctmyers]

In my eyes, the Brewers simply cannot let another player come to Milwaukee, fail miserably or never get a shot, and then show themselves to be a competent starter on another team. Jesus Aguilar, Jonathan Schoop, Brandon Kintzler, Eric Sogard, Dylan Moore, Jonathan Villar, Scooter Gennett, Jean Segura, Jeremy Jeffress, Tyler Webb, Brad Miller, Travis Shaw, Brock Holt and others are a constant reminder that they do not have a talent problem, they a failure to develop and maintain talent problem.

 

At some point this organization has to realize when things go wrong for our guys, we are absolutely horrible at getting them right. Now we've seen Yelich fall apart. Hiura looks lost. Avi Garcia looks terrible. And Narvaez forgot how to hit or take a pitch. This is a Brewers problem and letting another guy like Narvaez walk, when he's shown to be a good player in other competent organizations, would be a huge mistake.

[djoctagone]

a reminder that both mario feliciano and payton henry are rule 5 draft eligible if not added to the 40-man roster next month.

[TURBO]

a reminder that both mario feliciano and payton henry are rule 5 draft eligible if not added to the 40-man roster next month.

 

If we don't protect those guys, they are goners...

[liveforoctober]

a reminder that both mario feliciano and payton henry are rule 5 draft eligible if not added to the 40-man roster next month.

 

If we don't protect those guys, they are goners...

 

There is a sadness in losing the minor league season for these types of players - guys that would have gotten a shot had we had a full season. Nottingham/Narvaez struggling at the plate as they did ... one or both of these guys would have gotten looks. If we lose one or both, hoping it doesn't come back to bite us.

 

The exciting part of that equation is EVERY team went through the same thing this year and every team is going to have their own versions of Feliciano and Henry throughout their system that they will have to make decisions on and if Stearns and his crew are up to the task of treasure hunting as I think they are... there should be some gems out there to grab.

[homer]

I don't think there's a snowball's chance they let Feliciano get away.

[TURBO]

I don't think there's a snowball's chance they let Feliciano get away.

 

Agreed.

 

I think it would be a giant mistake to let either go, but especially Feliciano.

[MrTPlush]

I don't think there's a snowball's chance they let Feliciano get away.

 

Agreed.

 

I think it would be a giant mistake to let either go, but especially Feliciano.

 

Feliciano will get protected, but I doubt Henry will. A bit far from the majors and he doesn’t have a very high ceiling to be wasting a roster spot on.

[brewmann04]

Brewers need to find a way to keep their young catchers because Omar is not our answer behind the plate.

[DHonks]

I don't think there's a snowball's chance they let Feliciano get away.

 

Agreed.

 

I think it would be a giant mistake to let either go, but especially Feliciano.

 

Feliciano will get protected, but I doubt Henry will. A bit far from the majors and he doesn’t have a very high ceiling to be wasting a roster spot on.

 

wasn't he in their ton 20 last year, and known as a big league ready defensive catcher, with offensive potential? That's someone to keep

[CheezWizHed]

I wonder if Pina might be a trade piece this year?

 

Nobody is going to trade for Manny Pina.

 

He's had some memorable hits/homers for the Brewers over the years, but they've been trying to replace him for 2 seasons. Additionally, Pina will turn 34 next year, not an age where the majority of catchers continue to thrive. Meanwhile Narvaez is 28 and Nottingham is 25. Finally, Pina will seek a raise from his 1.8 million dollar salary in 2020. On a team that is likely to proceed as if "strapped for cash" he's likely to be non-tendered.

 

Erik Kratz says "hi".

 

But seriously, he has been a decent hitter and good defensive catcher. I'm not expecting a massive prospect haul in return, but with a bit of a logjam, we might find some taker.

 

As for replacing him... Yaz fell into our laps two years ago; I'm not sure we really searched that one out. And this year, I think the intent of Narvaez was to tandem with Pina all along; even if Naraez had hit like his usual.

[HiAndTight]

In my eyes, the Brewers simply cannot let another player come to Milwaukee, fail miserably or never get a shot, and then show themselves to be a competent starter on another team. Jesus Aguilar, Jonathan Schoop, Brandon Kintzler, Eric Sogard, Dylan Moore, Jonathan Villar, Scooter Gennett, Jean Segura, Jeremy Jeffress, Tyler Webb, Brad Miller, Travis Shaw, Brock Holt and others are a constant reminder that they do not have a talent problem, they a failure to develop and maintain talent problem.

 

At some point this organization has to realize when things go wrong for our guys, we are absolutely horrible at getting them right. Now we've seen Yelich fall apart. Hiura looks lost. Avi Garcia looks terrible. And Narvaez forgot how to hit or take a pitch. This is a Brewers problem and letting another guy like Narvaez walk, when he's shown to be a good player in other competent organizations, would be a huge mistake.

 

And we also saw Yelich who only took off once he came to the Brewers.

Jeremy Jeffress...I remember him looking pretty good here as well. We drafted him...and he's thrown ~305 of his 424 innings as a Brewers where he's been better collectively than everywhere else.

 

Jesus Aguilar-WE'RE the team that plucked him from the scrap heap and turned him into an OF'er.

 

In fact...most of the players you mention broke out when playing for the Brewers...and the Brewers have done a better job of finding other teams players and having success than other teams have had picking up our discarded players.

 

Sure, guys like Shaw who we non-tendered(again, AFTER he broke out here for a couple years)...I don't understand how you're using these players as examples of the Brewers not being able to develop talent.

 

Maybe the case is more the Brewers can't afford to acquire elite talent at numerous positions so they have to take risks. Often times those players have had some measure of success, then regressed toward the players they actually are and gotten expensive and the Brewers have had to let them go.

[TURBO]

Jesus Aguila an OFer? OFer = outfielder, right? If so, I'm confused.

[ctmyers]

In my eyes, the Brewers simply cannot let another player come to Milwaukee, fail miserably or never get a shot, and then show themselves to be a competent starter on another team. Jesus Aguilar, Jonathan Schoop, Brandon Kintzler, Eric Sogard, Dylan Moore, Jonathan Villar, Scooter Gennett, Jean Segura, Jeremy Jeffress, Tyler Webb, Brad Miller, Travis Shaw, Brock Holt and others are a constant reminder that they do not have a talent problem, they a failure to develop and maintain talent problem.

 

At some point this organization has to realize when things go wrong for our guys, we are absolutely horrible at getting them right. Now we've seen Yelich fall apart. Hiura looks lost. Avi Garcia looks terrible. And Narvaez forgot how to hit or take a pitch. This is a Brewers problem and letting another guy like Narvaez walk, when he's shown to be a good player in other competent organizations, would be a huge mistake.

 

And we also saw Yelich who only took off once he came to the Brewers.

Jeremy Jeffress...I remember him looking pretty good here as well. We drafted him...and he's thrown ~305 of his 424 innings as a Brewers where he's been better collectively than everywhere else.

 

Jesus Aguilar-WE'RE the team that plucked him from the scrap heap and turned him into an OF'er.

 

In fact...most of the players you mention broke out when playing for the Brewers...and the Brewers have done a better job of finding other teams players and having success than other teams have had picking up our discarded players.

 

Sure, guys like Shaw who we non-tendered(again, AFTER he broke out here for a couple years)...I don't understand how you're using these players as examples of the Brewers not being able to develop talent.

 

Maybe the case is more the Brewers can't afford to acquire elite talent at numerous positions so they have to take risks. Often times those players have had some measure of success, then regressed toward the players they actually are and gotten expensive and the Brewers have had to let them go.

 

Again, the point isn't that they can't find talent, it's that they are abhorrent at maintaining talent and fixing issues when they come up. Jeffress was one of the five best relievers in the National League in 2020 and the Brewers let him walk. Shaw turned in one of MLB's worst seasons in 2019 and in 2020 he would have had the 6th highest OPS on the Brewers. Urias played substantially worse for Milwaukee in 2020, while having a substantially better home park to play in 2019. Sogard's OPS dropped 250 points, YOY. Holt's OPS dropped 450 points from last year, then as soon as he goes to a different team - in the same year - his OPS jumps 346 points. In the same season Aguilar gets traded his OPS goes up by 66 points. Zach Davies is going to be on the Cy Young ballot, meanwhile Eric Lauer was left off the 28-man playoff roster for guys like Adrian Houser and Josh Lindblom.

 

And Omar Narvaez was the 3rd worst hitting catcher in all of baseball, only outpaced by dynamos Tony Wolters and Roberto Perez. What's the common denominator?

[sveumrules]

What's the common denominator?

 

A pandemic shortened season?

[pacopete4]

What's the common denominator?

 

A pandemic shortened season?

 

Yes. If I was working in a front office for a team right now I wouldn’t even look at the 2020 season to judge a player. It’s just not good data.