Haines

[Hopper]

I think my bottom line for the Brewers is that it isn't just the Yelichs (former MVPs), it isn't just the Hiuras (top 15 prospect with a 60 hit tool), and it isn't just the Garcias and Narvaezs (a career .273 and .276 hitter respectively) that have looked bad at the plate. It is the lack of adjustments that show progress toward something that resembles their career norms. Forget the MVP version of Yelich, just remember the Marlin version of Yelich who was a .290 hitter. Forget the .300 version of Hiura, just remember the guy who didn't have holes in his swing on balls middle-middle. Forget the .330 version of Garcia or 22 HR version of Narvaez, just remember their career averages over 3000 PAs and 1200 PAs prior to joining the Brewers.

 

Haines, and to a certain extent Counsell, have to be held accountable for not helping these guys get out of the offensive funk that has plagued them since 2020. Covid 2020 season was tough for a number of reasons but through the first 4 games of 2021, this team's ABs resemble 2020 too much. Uppercut swings and launch angle seem to be a Haines special and it appears to have changed the approaches of proven, successful MLB players. If it were just Yelich or Garcia or Hiura or Narvaez, certainly could understand keeping Haines. But it's not. It's all of them and that tells me it is an approach to hitting that is being coached.

 

Very logical take.

[pacopete4]

I keep asking myself, have we see more guys improve or even hit their norms under Haines or have we had more guys fall under the expectations? I think it has become apparent enough now that under Haines, we have not got enough out of the players we have signed under Haines and that is the problem if you are a coach. Maybe it all doesn't fall on him as it never should with coaching, but it is his responsibility to get the most out of our batters. He hasn't done that so far and after a month of the season, if we don't see a dramatic improvement, he should be fire. If we do see that improvement, then fine, keep doing your job.

[jerichoholicninja]

Despite having some talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers this offense has been pretty crappy as a whole for a number of years now. That's not on Haines or Counsell or any coach, that's on Stearns. We're consistently a contender (somehow) so I'm not really going to complain about the job he's doing overall but he's been a massive failure at building an offense.

[MrTPlush]

We all know why the 2020 team was competitive...a 60 game season and a million playoff spots.

 

It’s way too early to really judge this team, but Stearns created a strong 2018 team and it has cratered ever since. That should not be happening. He had a young core, the payroll wasn’t that high, and still had his farm intact (unlike Doug Melvins 2011 team).

[Yolk]

I think my bottom line for the Brewers is that it isn't just the Yelichs (former MVPs), it isn't just the Hiuras (top 15 prospect with a 60 hit tool), and it isn't just the Garcias and Narvaezs (a career .273 and .276 hitter respectively) that have looked bad at the plate. It is the lack of adjustments that show progress toward something that resembles their career norms. Forget the MVP version of Yelich, just remember the Marlin version of Yelich who was a .290 hitter. Forget the .300 version of Hiura, just remember the guy who didn't have holes in his swing on balls middle-middle. Forget the .330 version of Garcia or 22 HR version of Narvaez, just remember their career averages over 3000 PAs and 1200 PAs prior to joining the Brewers.

 

Haines, and to a certain extent Counsell, have to be held accountable for not helping these guys get out of the offensive funk that has plagued them since 2020. Covid 2020 season was tough for a number of reasons but through the first 4 games of 2021, this team's ABs resemble 2020 too much. Uppercut swings and launch angle seem to be a Haines special and it appears to have changed the approaches of proven, successful MLB players. If it were just Yelich or Garcia or Hiura or Narvaez, certainly could understand keeping Haines. But it's not. It's all of them and that tells me it is an approach to hitting that is being coached.

 

 

Haines needs to be gone yesterday.

[PeaveyFury]

Despite having some talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers this offense has been pretty crappy as a whole for a number of years now. That's not on Haines or Counsell or any coach, that's on Stearns..

 

I can't follow this logic at all- isn't Stearns the one who acquired that roster of talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers previously? Yep. How can he be blamed if they come here and don't produce at all? Doesn't that INHERENTLY imply issues with approach/coaching?

[RollieTime]

I think my bottom line for the Brewers is that it isn't just the Yelichs (former MVPs), it isn't just the Hiuras (top 15 prospect with a 60 hit tool), and it isn't just the Garcias and Narvaezs (a career .273 and .276 hitter respectively) that have looked bad at the plate. It is the lack of adjustments that show progress toward something that resembles their career norms. Forget the MVP version of Yelich, just remember the Marlin version of Yelich who was a .290 hitter. Forget the .300 version of Hiura, just remember the guy who didn't have holes in his swing on balls middle-middle. Forget the .330 version of Garcia or 22 HR version of Narvaez, just remember their career averages over 3000 PAs and 1200 PAs prior to joining the Brewers.

 

Haines, and to a certain extent Counsell, have to be held accountable for not helping these guys get out of the offensive funk that has plagued them since 2020. Covid 2020 season was tough for a number of reasons but through the first 4 games of 2021, this team's ABs resemble 2020 too much. Uppercut swings and launch angle seem to be a Haines special and it appears to have changed the approaches of proven, successful MLB players. If it were just Yelich or Garcia or Hiura or Narvaez, certainly could understand keeping Haines. But it's not. It's all of them and that tells me it is an approach to hitting that is being coached.

 

Couldn’t have said it better myself. He has some type of philosophy that turns quality MLB hitters into below average players. Whether it’s taking too many pitches, which they do, changing swings into uppercuts instead of maintaining what got them to the big leagues in the first place, being too patient at the plate and then becoming aggressive with 2 strikes. Whatever it is, it’s not working.

 

Obviously somebody has to take the fall. Whether that’s Haines, Counsell, or Stearns himself. I tend to believe it’s a Haines issue since he has proven it in the past to be a bad coach and somehow got this job after we overtook them that very season because of the Cubs’ horrible offense. We reward him by letting him ruin our hitters next? The Cubs passed on him as their hitting coach for a reason. For some reason, we looked past all of the red flags.

[jerichoholicninja]

Despite having some talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers this offense has been pretty crappy as a whole for a number of years now. That's not on Haines or Counsell or any coach, that's on Stearns..

 

I can't follow this logic at all- isn't Stearns the one who acquired that roster of talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers previously? Yep. How can he be blamed if they come here and don't produce at all? Doesn't that INHERENTLY imply issues with approach/coaching?

 

I'm not talking about players under their career numbers like Yelich or Navarez. I'm talking about the rest of the guys. He fills the roster with Sogards and Petersons who have no bat to begin with so any struggles from the "real" hitters makes the whole offense tank. Yelich's otherworldly hitting carried the team in 18 and 19 and now that he's not hitting to his standards (for whatever reason) the team needs perfect pitching every night to just stay in a game.

[sauveb]

Despite having some talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers this offense has been pretty crappy as a whole for a number of years now. That's not on Haines or Counsell or any coach, that's on Stearns..

 

I can't follow this logic at all- isn't Stearns the one who acquired that roster of talented hitters and guys that put up good numbers previously? Yep. How can he be blamed if they come here and don't produce at all? Doesn't that INHERENTLY imply issues with approach/coaching?

 

I agree 100% with Peavey. For those who say 4 games is a small sample, I say this looks just like last year so it has become a 64 game sample. The hitting approach is abysmal and I think that is more on Counsell than Haines. All Haines is doing is what his boss wants him to do. It's like when Sedar used to always send runners from third on a ground ball with one out and everyone roasted him for it. It's the manager's philosophy, not the coaches execution.

[PeaveyFury]

I'm not talking about players under their career numbers like Yelich or Navarez. I'm talking about the rest of the guys. He fills the roster with Sogards and Petersons who have no bat to begin with so any struggles from the "real" hitters makes the whole offense tank. Yelich's otherworldly hitting carried the team in 18 and 19 and now that he's not hitting to his standards (for whatever reason) the team needs perfect pitching every night to just stay in a game.

 

Who are the Sogards and Petersons on this year's team?

[jerichoholicninja]

I'm not talking about players under their career numbers like Yelich or Navarez. I'm talking about the rest of the guys. He fills the roster with Sogards and Petersons who have no bat to begin with so any struggles from the "real" hitters makes the whole offense tank. Yelich's otherworldly hitting carried the team in 18 and 19 and now that he's not hitting to his standards (for whatever reason) the team needs perfect pitching every night to just stay in a game.

 

Who are the Sogards and Petersons on this year's team?

 

Robertson, Shaw, Arcia (gone thankfully). Mathias and Lopes on the 40 man. I'll probably throw Vogelbach in there too.

[pacopete4]

We all know why the 2020 team was competitive...a 60 game season and a million playoff spots.

 

It’s way too early to really judge this team, but Stearns created a strong 2018 team and it has cratered ever since. That should not be happening. He had a young core, the payroll wasn’t that high, and still had his farm intact (unlike Doug Melvins 2011 team).

 

Who?

[Simba2020]

This is who Hiura was going back to the minors in 2019, I mean not this bad but very few hitters can have as high of a strikeout rate as Hiura and give an acceptable level of offense and those that do are patient (like Sano and Gallo) so even if they're hitting .220 or .230 their OBPs are in the .330-.350 range. Anyways, Hiura's strikeout rate jumped to 26% in AAA from 18% in AA then to nearly 31% in MLB in 2019 but I guess nobody wanted to hear about it because he hit .300 to 34.5% last year. There were warning signs about his bat going back to AAA.

 

As far as Yelich, I wonder if there's some sort of mental block with his knee. I would imagine smashing a foul ball off your knee is really painful and I wouldn't want to do that again so maybe there's some swing change or hesitancy or something that's causing all the swings and misses.

I agree completely on Hiura. I actually was quite concerned about the jump in K rate in 2019. His average was still good but inflated by babip rates around .400.

 

For Yelich I didn't think the knee would be a thing, maybe it is. I really thought with his solid spring and 6BB/6SO ratio he had, it looked to me that he was back to his old self but it certainly hasn't looked that way in the games that count.

[Dresden files]

I dont have an issue with how the team is built this year. Sterns went out and got wong and bradley to sure up the D. The starting pitching and bullpen should be great and we should have a Defense to save more runs then every before. The issue is the approach of the hitters. Still way to much swing for the fence. Game one Shaw had 4 great at bats fighting off pitches and not swing at balls in the dirt so what did Craig do bench him 2 of the next 3 games. We have a guy at first base that has 1 huge error that cost us one game and 0 hits. I like Keston but he needs a day or two off to get his head back on his shoulders. I dont think the issues to start this season fall on sterns but Haines trying to get everyone to change the launch angle of their swings. He needs to go.

[owbc]

Any thoughts I had about the Brewers having a bad offense were erased when I watched the Mariners the other night. League-wide batting average is currently .236. There are 20 teams that look as bad as the Brewers. If you want to win in the current version of MLB, you need to figure out how to win with 5-7 hits per game. That means drawing walks and slugging. If that's the approach they are going for, I would keep doing it until Manfred changes the rules.

[sveumrules]

It’s way too early to really judge this team, but Stearns created a strong 2018 team and it has cratered ever since.

 

2018: 96 Wins | 105 wRC+

2019: 89 Wins | 103 wRC+

 

The team, might have taken a small step back in 2019, but the extent of the cratering is only 64 games to this point.

[adambr2]

Any thoughts I had about the Brewers having a bad offense were erased when I watched the Mariners the other night. League-wide batting average is currently .236. There are 20 teams that look as bad as the Brewers. If you want to win in the current version of MLB, you need to figure out how to win with 5-7 hits per game. That means drawing walks and slugging. If that's the approach they are going for, I would keep doing it until Manfred changes the rules.

 

Regardless of the rules or how the MLB offense has changed they are still going to need Christian Yelich and Keston Hiura to hit better than replacement level if they are going to have any chance of success.

[mtsportsfan]

So maybe Haines is the problem , but tell me why he would come in and change Yelich and other players with proven success at the plate , why would the players listen to him? Why would the brewer brass let him do that? Isn't a hitting coach more for the younger player who hasn't had as much success and could use the coaching. If Haines is at fault , then I blame the gm and coach .

[brewcrewdue80]

This is who Hiura was going back to the minors in 2019, I mean not this bad but very few hitters can have as high of a strikeout rate as Hiura and give an acceptable level of offense and those that do are patient (like Sano and Gallo) so even if they're hitting .220 or .230 their OBPs are in the .330-.350 range. Anyways, Hiura's strikeout rate jumped to 26% in AAA from 18% in AA then to nearly 31% in MLB in 2019 but I guess nobody wanted to hear about it because he hit .300 to 34.5% last year. There were warning signs about his bat going back to AAA.

 

As far as Yelich, I wonder if there's some sort of mental block with his knee. I would imagine smashing a foul ball off your knee is really painful and I wouldn't want to do that again so maybe there's some swing change or hesitancy or something that's causing all the swings and misses.

I agree completely on Hiura. I actually was quite concerned about the jump in K rate in 2019. His average was still good but inflated by babip rates around .400.

 

For Yelich I didn't think the knee would be a thing, maybe it is. I really thought with his solid spring and 6BB/6SO ratio he had, it looked to me that he was back to his old self but it certainly hasn't looked that way in the games that count.

 

 

On Hiura and the BABIP. High EV and barrels explain a higher BABIP for certain hitters that have a nicer launch angle and arent pound the ball in ground and beat a throw to first.

Problem now is when will Hiura barrel a ball next?

 

 

WTP said-

 

Covid 2020 season was tough for a number of reasons but through the first 4 games of 2021, this team's ABs resemble 2020 too much. Uppercut swings and launch angle seem to be a Haines special and it appears to have changed the approaches of proven, successful MLB players. If it were just Yelich or Garcia or Hiura or Narvaez, certainly could understand keeping Haines. But it's not. It's all of them and that tells me it is an approach to hitting that is being coached.

 

 

I know I made a comment last season after a Haines 1st season covid relax type response. And does 1 really think Haines has that much effect on a batter.

 

Haines should have some responsibility on scouting the next day's starter to pass a strategy for the next game. At least offer some kind of insight towards tendencies. Aggressive 1st pitch swing with a man on base. Or patience as with a runner on 2nd they nibble outside willing to give up a walk for the dp opportunity. I mean you see pitching coaches walk to the mound to discuss a pinch hitter coming to bat.

Yet the approaches seem to consistently be sit often on 1st pitch strikes. Like Haines' strategy is to run a SP's pitch count up only it backfires because swinging after 1st strikes comes at pitches out of the zone too often. And not enough of the Brewers hitters are battle the pitcher down in the count with 2strikes to foul off good or close strike pitches to start down in the count.

There needs to be a voice with any better approach than what Haines is preaching. Go out there and find some kind of successful BA player of the past to instill something that made them successful to these guys. Coles and Haines aren't the type.

[clancyphile]

I dont have an issue with how the team is built this year. Sterns went out and got wong and bradley to sure up the D. The starting pitching and bullpen should be great and we should have a Defense to save more runs then every before. The issue is the approach of the hitters. Still way to much swing for the fence. Game one Shaw had 4 great at bats fighting off pitches and not swing at balls in the dirt so what did Craig do bench him 2 of the next 3 games. We have a guy at first base that has 1 huge error that cost us one game and 0 hits. I like Keston but he needs a day or two off to get his head back on his shoulders. I dont think the issues to start this season fall on sterns but Haines trying to get everyone to change the launch angle of their swings. He needs to go.

 

I have to agree. I think these two paragraphs from an article I quoted elsewhere sum up the problem with Haines:

 

“Launch angle, on the other hand, is something that I try not to look at as much. Launch angle is just a byproduct of where you hit the baseball. My biggest issue with people talking about launch angle is that when you’re teaching younger kids to hit the ball in the air because of a “better launch angle”, you aren’t actually teaching them how to hit. You’re just telling them to hit a pop up and a lot of people are dumping their barrel, which makes for an inefficient swing.”

 

“With professional baseball players, as long as a player continues a proper approach and doesn’t try to consistently hit the ball in the air with a long swing, I think the idea of launch angle is okay. By focusing on getting the ball in the air with the wrong approach, someone could create many holes in their swing. I have definitely told myself to hit the ball in the air before, but I do it by where I hit the baseball, not by manipulating my swing. Personally, I think the idea behind looking into launch angle is a great thing, but how people get to the angle that they want is not always beneficial to being a good hitter.”

 

You know what, maybe hire THAT guy to be the hitting coach.

[josh]

Ope. I thought this would be a thread about Haines’s resounding success in helping Omar Narvaez rebound this year.

[MrTPlush]

We all know why the 2020 team was competitive...a 60 game season and a million playoff spots.

 

It’s way too early to really judge this team, but Stearns created a strong 2018 team and it has cratered ever since. That should not be happening. He had a young core, the payroll wasn’t that high, and still had his farm intact (unlike Doug Melvins 2011 team).

 

Who?

 

What do you mean, who?

 

He was loaded with controllable talent. Yelich, Hader, Woodruff, Davies, Burnes, Peralta, Knebel...plus more. He had a huge chunk of that team that was controllable and 25-26 age range. If you upped that to age 28 you would be covering a large majority of the contributors. He had quite a few decent prospects in the minors at the time on the verge of MLB time (Hiura/Grisham/Williams).

 

It certainly was not an “all in” type year in 2018...far from it. It is certainly questionable if they end up worse for the third year in a row post 2018. But again...it’s a bit early to assume that will happen...way too early.

[pacopete4]

We all know why the 2020 team was competitive...a 60 game season and a million playoff spots.

 

It’s way too early to really judge this team, but Stearns created a strong 2018 team and it has cratered ever since. That should not be happening. He had a young core, the payroll wasn’t that high, and still had his farm intact (unlike Doug Melvins 2011 team).

 

Who?

 

What do you mean, who?

 

He was loaded with controllable talent. Yelich, Hader, Woodruff, Davies, Burnes, Peralta, Knebel...plus more. He had a huge chunk of that team that was controllable and 25-26 age range. If you upped that to age 28 you would be covering a large majority of the contributors. He had quite a few decent prospects in the minors at the time on the verge of MLB time (Hiura/Grisham/Williams).

 

It certainly was not an “all in” type year in 2018...far from it. It is certainly questionable if they end up worse for the third year in a row post 2018. But again...it’s a bit early to assume that will happen...way too early.

His strong 2018 team and your “young core” of contributors are mostly two different things. You may want to refresh your memory of who contributed to the success on that team and check their age. Lots of older guys and quite a few transactions made to make that team have the success it did.

[MrTPlush]

His strong 2018 team and your “young core” of contributors are mostly two different things. You may want to refresh your memory of who contributed to the success on that team and check their age. Lots of older guys and quite a few transactions made to make that team have the success it did.

 

You could nitpick forever who contributed to what extent in 2018. Davies wasn't strong in 2018, but was in 2017/2019 (and 2020 after we dumped him). And no...the contributors really weren't that old. Of the eight main contributors on offense 5/8 were under 30. 2/3 of the older guys weren't huge offensive forces (Pina/Braun). Cain was the only really old guy who was really good offensively. Yah, they were some older guys who were contributors...that is pretty much a given. Any team is going to have older guys and transactions that made it good.

 

Stearns had a stellar situation after 2018. Unfortunately the demise of Aguilar/Shaw hurt a bit long term. Without that controllable offense he has failed quite a bit making a decent offense outside of his Moustakas/Grandal moves in 2019...but obviously that wasn't the long term fix needed. His long term fix attempts have been pretty questionable. He has yet to improve SS in all his years here (Urias is just as bad until proven otherwise), Garcia was a strange move that is totally flopping, and even Wong isn't really known for providing above average offense.

 

I am not ready to really roll Stearns over the coals. His last two off-season's don't seem to be overly impressive, but I am not sure if he really could have done better the 2019 offseason and this past offseason I thought it was pretty good for the circumstances. If this year goes rough I would certainly start to question him a bit...but we aren't even two weeks into April.

[PeaveyFury]

Only ONE measly hit for the Cubs? Are their fans calling for the firing of their hitting coach this morning? /blue... wait, no blue- they probably are.