Haines

[timpep]

Everyone wanted to fire Chris Hook at the beginning of last year, so far this year our pitching staff is 3rd in MLB by FIP based WAR.

 

Pitching went from slightly below average last year to above average this year. Hitting went from average to one of the worst in the league. I'm not sure it's a great comparison.

[sveumrules]

Everyone wanted to fire Chris Hook at the beginning of last year, so far this year our pitching staff is 3rd in MLB by FIP based WAR.

 

The pitching staff is in the upper half of MLB in almost every pitching stat. It's been well discussed that the pitching has not been the problem. With any semblance of an offense they would be leading the league and big-time contenders. They are in the bottom 5 of all baseball in BA - Runs scored - OBP - OPS - Strikeouts. Sadly, Stearns' great journeyman experiment of 2020 has been an abysmal failure with one lone exception, Jed Gyorko.

 

Right, the pitching staff has been great.

 

It's almost like everybody that wanted Chris Hook fired at the start of last year was being overly reactionary based on a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities.

 

Would firing Andy Haines after a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities be similarly overly reactionary?

 

I guess only time will tell.

[sveumrules]

Everyone wanted to fire Chris Hook at the beginning of last year, so far this year our pitching staff is 3rd in MLB by FIP based WAR.

 

The pitching staff is in the upper half of MLB in almost every pitching stat. It's been well discussed that the pitching has not been the problem. With any semblance of an offense they would be leading the league and big-time contenders. They are in the bottom 5 of all baseball in BA - Runs scored - OBP - OPS - Strikeouts. Sadly, Stearns' great journeyman experiment of 2020 has been an abysmal failure with one lone exception, Jed Gyorko.

 

Right, the pitching staff has been great.

 

It's almost like everybody that wanted Chris Hook fired at the start of last year was being overly reactionary based on a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities.

 

Would firing Andy Haines after a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities be similarly overly reactionary?

 

I guess only time will tell.

[sveumrules]

Everyone wanted to fire Chris Hook at the beginning of last year, so far this year our pitching staff is 3rd in MLB by FIP based WAR.

 

The pitching staff is in the upper half of MLB in almost every pitching stat. It's been well discussed that the pitching has not been the problem. With any semblance of an offense they would be leading the league and big-time contenders. They are in the bottom 5 of all baseball in BA - Runs scored - OBP - OPS - Strikeouts. Sadly, Stearns' great journeyman experiment of 2020 has been an abysmal failure with one lone exception, Jed Gyorko.

 

Right, the pitching staff has been great.

 

It's almost like everybody that wanted Chris Hook fired at the start of last year was being overly reactionary based on a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities.

 

Would firing Andy Haines after a small sample of bad results with limited predictive capabilities be similarly overly reactionary?

 

I guess only time will tell.

[Devinep]

The approach to hitting has just been awful this year. Only Vogelbach (for now) even thinks about shortening up and/or slapping the gall to beat the shift. The softball uppercut swing for the fences approach with the entire opposing side of the infield open and continuing with 2 strikes even is ridiculous

[AKCheesehead]

What I'm wondering is, who would be the fall guy for the hitting coach?

 

In 2012 our pitching struggled and the bullpen stunk so they fired Stan Kyles the bullpen coach, and Kranitz got to stick around until the end of 2015. Different regime, I realize. But who besides Haines could they blame?

 

Do bat boys ever get fired? Are there bat boys this year?

 

I don't know who else they could fire but organizationally they cannot pretend that this year's offense is up to snuff, even with the roster construction being what it is. I would have to imagine they'll make a change after the season.

[jerichoholicninja]

Other than Ed Sedar and Marcus Hanel the entire coaching staff has been a revolving door for a looonnggggg time. I don't have an answer but clearly neither does whoever is in charge of hiring coaches.

[brewmann04]

Haines is not going anywhere imo.

[Jopal78]

Haines probably has hitting philosophies/approaches he preaches which maybe the players adhere to. He’s supposed to notice bad hitting habits players get into, and he’s supposed to know what the opposing pitchers approach is and what they’re likely going to throw and be able to suggest tendencies to look for.

 

However by the time these hitters get to the majors and have had some success, hardly any are breaking their swings down and changing it mid-season. They’re going to dance with the ones that brought them to the show.

 

Moreover, to the extent Haines is blamed for Yelich and Hiura having down years he has to be given credit for Gyorko who is having a career triple slash line, and Vogelbach who is resuscitating his career as a major leaguer.

 

As such a hitting coach likely has limited impact on what the players do. They’re hired to be fired and are usually the first level of insulation before the manager is on the hot seat. Craig isn’t going anywhere regardless of what happens in 2020, and Haines likely isn’t either.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Haines probably has hitting philosophies/approaches he preaches which maybe the players adhere to. He’s supposed to notice bad hitting habits players get into, and he’s supposed to know what the opposing pitchers approach is and what they’re likely going to throw and be able to suggest tendencies to look for.

 

However by the time these hitters get to the majors and have had some success, hardly any are breaking their swings down and changing it mid-season. They’re going to dance with the ones that brought them to the show.

 

Moreover, to the extent Haines is blamed for Yelich and Hiura having down years he has to be given credit for Gyorko who is having a career triple slash line, and Vogelbach who is resuscitating his career as a major leaguer.

 

As such a hitting coach likely has limited impact on what the players do. They’re hired to be fired and are usually the first level of insulation before the manager is on the hot seat. Craig isn’t going anywhere regardless of what happens in 2020, and Haines likely isn’t either.

 

Can this post just be pinned as the perfect response whenever anyone is advocating for firing the hitting coach? Not that hitting coaches don't serve their purpose, but they are more or less a scapegoat for frustrated fans to vent on.

[RollieTime]

Haines probably has hitting philosophies/approaches he preaches which maybe the players adhere to. He’s supposed to notice bad hitting habits players get into, and he’s supposed to know what the opposing pitchers approach is and what they’re likely going to throw and be able to suggest tendencies to look for.

 

I think this is where Haines does deserve some of the blame. A hitting coach will have philosophies that they will have their guys fall into. Whether it’s never swinging at first pitch, always look first pitch fastball or take it, have guys load earlier, lowering their hands, whatever it may be. I haven’t been able to watch a ton of games this season so I’m no expert in pointing out anything that has changed, but a hitting coach does have a say in what a batter will do.

 

Is it unfair to fire Haines in a season when he has an aging Braun, no Cain, and is stuck trotting out the likes of Sogard, Smoak, Peterson, and Arcia? Possibly. But with basically an entire team having their worst season of their career, does there need to be a fall guy? I think so.

 

Hearing about firing Haines multiple times every day is tiring, but I do think there is merit to the idea. Whatever he is saying, preaching, trying to get guys to do, it just isn’t working. A playoff contending team should not be one of the worst offenses in the game.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised to see Haines go and I do hope they go in another direction this offseason, but he certainly wasn’t handed an All-Star studded lineup.

[pacopete4]

Haines sabbotaged Yelich only to then fix him and lead us to another playoff appearance. I got it now.

[brewers888]

If we don't judge a hitting coach on the players actually hitting what do we go on. If you don't place any blame on Haines why have a hitting coach at all.

[brewers888]

When you watch a guy like Arcia just flailing away trying to hit it 500 ft when all he needed was to try to get a single or at least move the runner over to win the game the other night and you see Narvaez with that ridiculous uppercut fail to make any adjustments the hitting coach has to shoulder the blame.

[Jopal78]

When you watch a guy like Arcia just flailing away trying to hit it 500 ft when all he needed was to try to get a single or at least move the runner over to win the game the other night and you see Narvaez with that ridiculous uppercut fail to make any adjustments the hitting coach has to shoulder the blame.

 

You neglect to mention players have to be willing to change. Arcia has played in over 500 games in the minor leagues and another 500+ in the major leagues he's had pro coaches in his ear since he was a teenager. He's not going to suddenly morph into a .285/.345/.475 hitter with a little different tutelage.

[Lathund]

The thing with Arcia is that this is actually the first season where something *is* different. Swinging less at pitches outside the zone, fewer swinging strikes, higher contact %. Leading to fewer strikeouts, more walks. As well as a slightly better batted ball profile. Looking at the statcast data (Taking quality of contact + walks + strikeouts into account) his results in past years at the plate were, if anything, somehwat lucky rather than unlucky in spite of how poor the results were. Whereas this season he's deserved better results than he's getting. I'm very jaded when it comes to Orlando Arcia "breakouts", but unlike his hot streaks in the past there's something to go on here. Then it was just doing the same thing but getting some better results. Now the question is whether these changes are for real; things like swinging strike rate or almost any plate discipline stat really, tend to stabilize fast, but even then less than 2 months isn't a lot of time.

[areacodes]

I would move on but I also wouldn't of hired him.

 

He was fired as the scrubs assistant hitting coach. If this guy doesn't get fired there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever in this organization. I don't know who should replace Haines but I am fairly certain the results won't be any worse.

 

Once again, why the need to make up that Haines was fired by the Cubs? It just isn’t true.

 

[HiAndTight]

Blaming the hitting coach for Yelich and Hiura hitting like crap and swinging through middle-middle fastballs is a scapegoat. If they fire Haines, whatever, I'll be fine with it. But this isn't his fault. The accountability needs to fall on the guys making millions.

 

 

This pretty much echo's my sentiments. Nobody can really tell if a hitting coach is good at his job. It's even more difficult than a pitching coach.

If Christian Yelich can't hit and if Keston Hiura can't hit, I don't really see how you can blame the hitting coach.

 

BUT the fact remains that we swung and missed on a whole lot of players who had at least marginally histories of success. So I won't be upset if they fire him, but I think it's kinda silly to place the blame on him. Brock Holt knew how to hit before he got here, Garcia was a good hitter. Sogard seems totally sporadic in his ability to hit a baseball. Though maybe it's just that he can't play for the Brewers.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I would move on but I also wouldn't of hired him.

 

He was fired as the scrubs assistant hitting coach. If this guy doesn't get fired there is absolutely no accountability whatsoever in this organization. I don't know who should replace Haines but I am fairly certain the results won't be any worse.

 

This is not the first time you have said this this season, and it isn't the first time you've been corrected on it. Haines was not fired by the Cubs. I'm not real sure what kind of narrative you are attempting to pass off, but please at least try to be factual.

[brewers888]

So what exactly is the argument in favor of keeping him. If only we could all be as unproductive at our jobs as Haines is at his and still stay employed. I guess I live in a world where accountability and job performance actually means something which may not be the case when it comes to being the hitting coach for the Brewers.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

So what exactly is the argument in favor of keeping him. If only we could all be as unproductive at our jobs as Haines is at his and still stay employed. I guess I live in a world where accountability and job performance actually means something which may not be the case when it comes to being the hitting coach for the Brewers.

 

You do realize that there are more job components to being a hitting coach than what a fan sees as on-field performance, right? Like I said earlier, whether they fire him or not doesn't really concern me either way. But you have this weird gripe against the guy and seem to blame him almost fully for the Brewers inconsistent offense this season. As has been pointed out many times by many posters, the issues are quite a bit deeper and systematic than simply canning the hitting coach. This seems to be an organization-wide hitting approach problem, and it starts with the players that the organization employs. If the employees do not take direction from their superiors, and do not perform their duties as directed, it is time for the organization to replace them with players who do.

[pacopete4]

Look what Haines is doing for Braun. Guys on fire!

[brewers888]

So what exactly is the argument in favor of keeping him. If only we could all be as unproductive at our jobs as Haines is at his and still stay employed. I guess I live in a world where accountability and job performance actually means something which may not be the case when it comes to being the hitting coach for the Brewers.

 

You do realize that there are more job components to being a hitting coach than what a fan sees as on-field performance, right? Like I said earlier, whether they fire him or not doesn't really concern me either way. But you have this weird gripe against the guy and seem to blame him almost fully for the Brewers inconsistent offense this season. As has been pointed out many times by many posters, the issues are quite a bit deeper and systematic than simply canning the hitting coach. This seems to be an organization-wide hitting approach problem, and it starts with the players that the organization employs. If the employees do not take direction from their superiors, and do not perform their duties as directed, it is time for the organization to replace them with players who do.

 

Of course its not all his fault that the team has a terrible offense. I am not expecting Haines to turn guys like Sogard and Peterson into good players but the vast majority of this lineup has underachieved some very badly like Narvaez and someone has to take the hit for that. Other than Gyorko there is not one other player hitting better than expected.

[jerichoholicninja]

They are some pitching coaches, whether deserved or not, that get a reputation for being difference makers. Leo Mazzone, Don Cooper, Dave Duncan, Ray Searge come to mind. However, I can't really think of any notable hitting coaches. Charlie Manuel, maybe. But I believe his reputation for being a "hitting whisperer" came from his time as a manager.

[HiAndTight]

 

Of course its not all his fault that the team has a terrible offense. I am not expecting Haines to turn guys like Sogard and Peterson into good players but the vast majority of this lineup has underachieved some very badly like Narvaez and someone has to take the hit for that. Other than Gyorko there is not one other player hitting better than expected.

 

 

So it's just about wanting someone to "take the fall?"

 

That doesn't seem like a very effective way to put a coaching staff together.