ARTICLE: Hall of Fame Trial - Tim Â?RockÂ? Raines

[JohnBriggs12]

I'll vote no.

 

I kind of go with a 5/5/5 rule meaning a guy must have 5 clearly Hall of Fame seasons, 5 that are very close, and 5 more as solid everyday player.

 

He got the first 5 from 83 through 87. But his next 5 best seasons are really noticeably not as strong as his best 5 and his third 5 include a lot of partial seasons due to injuries.

 

I might have overlooked his offensive shortcomings if he had played CF. But he played LF, a bigger offensive position.

[huntsvillefan]

I might have overlooked his offensive shortcomings if he had played CF. But he played LF, a bigger offensive position.

 

In general, I'm an instinctive 'no' voter and I thought long and hard about that as a reason to rule him out.

In the end I used the Molitor comparison. Molitor had an almost identical OPS and wasn't as good a base stealer.

If Molitor can make it without a fielding position then surely actually playing LF shouldn't be held against Raines.

I know there is a need to be wary of the type of argument that says if x is in then y should be too. But in this case he made up for any perceived defensive inadequacies, by being one of the greatest base stealers who ever played.

[gregmag]

Like hvf, I've been pretty negative so far, although I voted yes on Simmons and have felt torn about Sutter. I too see Raines as the first clear-cut HoFer to come up so far. He was just a flat-out brilliant leadoff man. His biggest problem is that he played at the same time as Rickey Henderson and Paul Molitor, two of the other greatest leadoff men of all time. Leadoff guys get underrated, and it's hard for the guy who plays in Montreal when there are other great ones around.

 

John made a sound point about looking at the number of impact seasons, but I don't see Raines' career as top-heavy. Tim's tenth best full-season OBP is .374 in 1995. His tenth best full-season SLG is .405 in 1992 -- and this is a leadoff man, one who played a lot of his career in poor hitting environments. His tenth best run total is 80 in 1994 (when he played only 101 games). He scored 100 runs six times, hit .300 six times, stole 70 or more bases six times, and had 50 or more extra-base hits five times. He certainly had his peak, but a lot of those achievements are scattered around his career.

 

FWIW, Bill James has Raines as the seventh greatest LF of all time, IIRC. I don't have the book with me now; I'll correct this later if I'm wrong.

 

Greg.

[huntsvillefan]

I checked the revised Historical abstract and James has him as 8th best LF of all time and the 81st best player of all time.

Total Baseball actually rates him higher still in their all time top 100, but I'm not sure exactly what position.

[huntsvillefan]

blank message -sorry posted twice trying to get sig right

[splitterpfj]

Thanks John Briggs for making a case for the "no" side.

 

At the moment, Raines is right on the edge of 75% yes in the poll. We need more total votes, but it's obvious Tim has good support among Brewerfans, at least the .net variety.

 

I have to agree with those of you who pointed out how dominant Raines was as a leadoff hitter. The 80's had three all-world leadoff guys, Henderson, Molitor and Raines. Rickey made it hard to notice anyone else, Molitor had the hitting streak and two World Series appearances.........Raines had the Expos, and collusion.

 

I know I hadn't realized how well he stacked up against other leadoff types of recent years, but I can say for certain I'd take him over Lou Brock in a blink.

[NYBrewer]

Tim Raines deserves to be a Hall of Famer. Not only does he deserve to be in the Hall, BUT he deserves to be elected as a 1st timer. I knew "Rock" deserved to go but I didn't know how awesome he really was until I read the numbers published by Mr. Coppernoll.

 

I say....Hail to the "Rock". A certain 1st time elector.

 

If Wade Boggs got vote din on his first ballot then it is ano brainer for "Rock". If you look at Boggs vs. the other 3rd basemen and "Rock" vs. the other HOF'ers that he is stacked up against, it is a no brainer.

[splitterpfj]

Votes are still coming in consistently, Raines is at 70%.

 

If you're opposed to Raines' election, please tell us why.

[LouisEly]

I'm very susupcious about how towards the end of his career he started to "fill out a uniform", a la Sammy Sosa. (And notice how much less "ripped" Sosa is now compared to pre-steriod testing years... and how much his production has dropped off.) Compare Raines' physique to that of former teammate Andre Dawson. I just have a hard time believing that Raines wasn't on any "supplements", and if so, how much that helped his career. Steroids don't just make you stronger - look at Ben Johnson and all those sprinters.

 

On another note, I do remember when Raines insisted on being called "Rock". I know for sure that it was on his baseball cards for at least a year, and seem to recall him all but officially changing his first name to "Rock".

 

I'm suspicious about his physique. I'm suspicious that his numbers may have been "helped" and his career extended in an "unnatural" way. Looking at his numbers, I don't see any "magical numbers" or "HOF benchmarks" achieved. (If we only use OBP, then do we have to vote for guys like John Olerud?) I see him as falling into the "Hall of the Very, Very Good". If I were voting, I'd vote "no" for at least the first five years, but may reconsider in the future.

[splitterpfj]

Raines is within striking distance in the poll, but he's not in as of now.

 

Any more comments either way?