ARTICLE: Hall of Fame Trial - Ron Santo

[huntsvillefan]

Fair enough, I completely agree that no one source should ever be taken as gospel. But in this case Palmer seems to be the one source that is completely out of step with the rest. Are there other sources to back him up or do you have a reason for believing him above others?

[brettac1]

Baseball Prospectus has them as near equals as well, with Robinson at a 107 "Rate" and Santo at 103. Also, if you look at Robinson/Santo in comparison to Boyer according to FR, Boyer destroys Robinson and Santo. He also takes "Range", with Santo second. I guess it's just preference, but I like Fielding Runs. I don't have the "Historical Abstract" here, but who does James have as the #1 3B? Boyer?

 

EDIT: Also in Baseball Encyclopedia, Santo is ranked 20th in Fielding Wins, Boyer 13th, and Robinson 87th.

[huntsvillefan]

If you like fielding stats, I can definitely see your logic and what you quote certainly suggests that the stats don't love Brooks Robinson as much as the observers did.

I admire your consistency but I'm afraid it just makes me think that fielding stats really aren't much good at all and obviously I'm in reasonably good company on the Santo / Robinson debate.

At least we both agree that Santo should be in.

[huntsvillefan]

I guess it's just preference, but I like Fielding Runs.

 

After making my last post I felt desperately unfair and a bit of a Luddite. Who am I to dismiss Pete Palmer's probably hard researched FR theory on the basis of first hand accounts. I realized just how much I respect the first hand accounts of the guys on baseball tonight (hardly at all) and started to wonder why I was believing that accounts from back then were any more reliable.

So, I've spent the last two hours looking into Fielding Runs while following the Sounds game. I honestly was prepared to be converted - anything has to be better than relying on the web gem collectors to define good fielding. What I found was a set of idiosyncratic values codified into a stat (for example any assist is somehow magically worth exactly twice as much as any putout).

The guys at Baseball Think Factory do a far fairer critique than I'm capable of HERE

Suffice it to say I prefer my personal opinions to be presented as such and not disguised as stats (referring to Palmer here, not Bret in any way) and I'm feeling marginally less guilty about accepting the majority of first hand accounts of Robinson & Santo's relative fielding merits.

 

EDIT I could be mistaken, but aren't the fielding wins you quoted simply calculated from fielding runs and therefore a repetition of the same stat? And do Baseball Prospectus by any chance use a version of FR to calculate their 'rate'?

[splitterpfj]

The Cubs never won will Santo was there, does anyone think that has hurt his case with the voters?

[huntsvillefan]

I doubt it - it didn't seem to hurt Ernie Banks' case.

I also find it surprizing that Santo doesn't even seem to have collected any votes in recognition of his struggle with diabetes throughout his career. The guy was expected to be dead by age 25.

I actually wonder if his career in broadcasting has hindered rather than helped his cause.

[splitterpfj]

I get the point you're making Huntsville, but you can't compare Banks to Santo..........a SS with 500 homers was going in, no matter who he played for.

 

I suppose the same can be said about Billy Williams though, he was a borderline case, from the same team, same era.

[splitterpfj]

With a positive vote of just 35%, Santo is a definite no among Brewerfans.