COVID-19 Thread [V2.0]

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't know if this is actually true but someone mentioned to me that notable side effects were a sign of a stronger immune system.

[homer]

I don't know if this is actually true but someone mentioned to me that notable side effects were a sign of a stronger immune system.

 

I have heard that young people are feeling it worse than older folks so maybe there's some truth there.

[tmwiese55]

I don't know if this is actually true but someone mentioned to me that notable side effects were a sign of a stronger immune system.

 

Right, that's what I understood (as the idea/theory) going in and why being someone young-ish who doesn't get sick I assumed a stronger immune system so I was expecting something on the 2nd but it never came.

 

This idea is behind why they say it's less likely for older folks to have strong reactions as their immune systems generally won't be as strong. Who knows of course but your point seems to be the prevalent thought on the topic.

 

ETA: None of this was in regards to being more protected based on side effects. Was purely talking about response to the shots.

[Machu Peach]

It's very well established that the side effects one experiences after an immunization are mostly due to activation of the innate immune system. However the goal of a vaccine is to induce a response from the adaptive immune system. There's certainly a loose correlation between the intensity of the innate response and development of the adaptive response but it would be incorrect to assume that people that have more severe side effects are better protected.

 

Younger people generally are more likely to experience side effects, again because of stronger innate immunity. Both innate and adaptive immunity wane as one ages.

 

Notably, with this type of immunization the side effects to the vaccine will not mimic the symptoms of the actual disease, other than that they both can strongly activate innate immunity and that alone can make one feel pretty crummy for a day or two.

[adambr2]

I had nothing at all after Moderna 1.

 

Had Moderna 2 about 5 hours ago, so we'll see. I'm working 2 to 10 today and tomorrow, so I hope nothing.

[RobertR]

My second dose of Moderna basically made me achy and tired, but I was able to work through it. Not a bad trade off.

[Thurston Fluff]

I was reading somewhere that people who had covid generally had more problems after getting vaccinated. Makes me wonder if some who have bad side effects might have had asymptomatic covid and not known it. Either way, like someone previously said, if the symptoms some are having is any indication of what actual covid feels like bite the bullet and get the shot.

[adambr2]

24 hours after Moderna 2. Minor chills and aches last night and today, nothing too major. Still going into work today. Definitely learned I prefer to sleep on my left side last night and it was definitely uncomfortable not to be able to.

[adambr2]

I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers with this, so let me be clear this is just my totally unqualified opinion. I think the practice of fully vaccinated people (2 weeks since 2nd dose) wearing masks is a bit silly. Even now you have fully vaccinated folks riding their bikes with masks on because they think it's the "right" thing to do. When in reality the risk to themselves and others is so microscopic that it likely compares to pre-COVID tines when they would have felt ridiculous about doing such a thing. Right now I understand that CDC needs to err on the safe side because it's a big mix as to who is vaccinated and who isn't. And I know businesses have a right to set their own guidelines. But this summer, we'll reach the point where pretty much everyone in the US who wants a vaccine will have had one.

Those who haven't probably aren't getting one.

 

I don't think it's the moral responsibility of those who chose to get the vaccine to reduce an already fractional risk simply because those who choose not to are preventing herd immunity from being achieved.

 

While it's first and foremost important that lives are being saved, another purpose of the vaccine was supposed to be our means of achieving normalcy again. If we're still masking up when everyone who wants a vaccine has had access, we may as well plan to do so forever and concede that we aren't seeing normal again.

 

To be clear, I understand many vaccinated people are masking up based on business and CDC guidelines who are going to err on the safe side for some time yet, my point is that eventually they really shouldn't have to regardless of whether or not herd immunity is achieved.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers with this, so let me be clear this is just my totally unqualified opinion. I think the practice of fully vaccinated people (2 weeks since 2nd dose) wearing masks is a bit silly. Even now you have fully vaccinated folks riding their bikes with masks on because they think it's the "right" thing to do. When in reality the risk to themselves and others is so microscopic that it likely compares to pre-COVID tines when they would have felt ridiculous about doing such a thing. Right now I understand that CDC needs to err on the safe side because it's a big mix as to who is vaccinated and who isn't. And I know businesses have a right to set their own guidelines. But this summer, we'll reach the point where pretty much everyone in the US who wants a vaccine will have had one.

Those who haven't probably aren't getting one.

 

I don't think it's the moral responsibility of those who chose to get the vaccine to reduce an already fractional risk simply because those who choose not to are preventing herd immunity from being achieved.

 

While it's first and foremost important that lives are being saved, another purpose of the vaccine was supposed to be our means of achieving normalcy again. If we're still masking up when everyone who wants a vaccine has had access, we may as well plan to do so forever and concede that we aren't seeing normal again.

 

To be clear, I understand many vaccinated people are masking up based on business and CDC guidelines who are going to err on the safe side for some time yet, my point is that eventually they really shouldn't have to regardless of whether or not herd immunity is achieved.

 

I agree with all of this. I certainly don't want to throw all caution to the wind, but now that the vaccine is available for everyone 16 and older, there will come a point likely sooner rather than later where people are going to simply say "OK, you've had plenty of opportunity to get a shot, I'm not going to go out of my way to protect you anymore if you are unwilling to protect yourself."

 

The group I do worry about, though, are the 12-15 year olds who are not yet eligible to receive a vaccine, but are seemingly more susceptible to being infected by the variants.

[PeaveyFury]

To be clear, I understand many vaccinated people are masking up based on business and CDC guidelines who are going to err on the safe side for some time yet, my point is that eventually they really shouldn't have to regardless of whether or not herd immunity is achieved.

 

I'm a little surprised by the post for a few reasons, many of which you noted including that masking is, at least at this point, largely a business-led policy in a lot of cases and businesses can only feasibly do all one way or the other.

 

But, the CDC has already released updated guidance that eases guidance for those that are vaccinated and includes a lot of 'situational guidance' as well for when one house hold/person IS vaccinated and one isn't, etc. I believe many WI and many/most of the counties/cities have removed most restriction guidance on outdoor activities altogether.

 

To my knowledge, the vaccine was finally made available to all persons 16+ in all states either at the end of last week or beginning of this week. In short, I think that you haven't given enough time for the CDC to react and give updated guidance to a 'fully available vaccine' scenario as of yet.

[adambr2]

I'm sure I will ruffle some feathers with this, so let me be clear this is just my totally unqualified opinion. I think the practice of fully vaccinated people (2 weeks since 2nd dose) wearing masks is a bit silly. Even now you have fully vaccinated folks riding their bikes with masks on because they think it's the "right" thing to do. When in reality the risk to themselves and others is so microscopic that it likely compares to pre-COVID tines when they would have felt ridiculous about doing such a thing. Right now I understand that CDC needs to err on the safe side because it's a big mix as to who is vaccinated and who isn't. And I know businesses have a right to set their own guidelines. But this summer, we'll reach the point where pretty much everyone in the US who wants a vaccine will have had one.

Those who haven't probably aren't getting one.

 

I don't think it's the moral responsibility of those who chose to get the vaccine to reduce an already fractional risk simply because those who choose not to are preventing herd immunity from being achieved.

 

While it's first and foremost important that lives are being saved, another purpose of the vaccine was supposed to be our means of achieving normalcy again. If we're still masking up when everyone who wants a vaccine has had access, we may as well plan to do so forever and concede that we aren't seeing normal again.

 

To be clear, I understand many vaccinated people are masking up based on business and CDC guidelines who are going to err on the safe side for some time yet, my point is that eventually they really shouldn't have to regardless of whether or not herd immunity is achieved.

 

I agree with all of this. I certainly don't want to throw all caution to the wind, but now that the vaccine is available for everyone 16 and older, there will come a point likely sooner rather than later where people are going to simply say "OK, you've had plenty of opportunity to get a shot, I'm not going to go out of my way to protect you anymore if you are unwilling to protect yourself."

 

The group I do worry about, though, are the 12-15 year olds who are not yet eligible to receive a vaccine, but are seemingly more susceptible to being infected by the variants.

 

Good point, children are definitely something I considered when posting this, but the overall risk to them I think is pretty well established as being microscopic. Specifically, there have been 307 deaths in the 0-18 age group out of a total of almost 4 million reported cases (actual number likely much higher).

 

https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Provisional-COVID-19-Deaths-Focus-on-Ages-0-18-Yea/nr4s-juj3

 

Now you add in that they are likely to be around a majority of vaccinated adults and the risk is reduced even further. There's just an extremely small risk to children in a mostly vaccinated country that probably compares favorably to many other risks.

[adambr2]

To be clear, I understand many vaccinated people are masking up based on business and CDC guidelines who are going to err on the safe side for some time yet, my point is that eventually they really shouldn't have to regardless of whether or not herd immunity is achieved.

 

I'm a little surprised by the post for a few reasons, many of which you noted including that masking is, at least at this point, largely a business-led policy in a lot of cases and businesses can only feasibly do all one way or the other.

 

But, the CDC has already released updated guidance that eases guidance for those that are vaccinated and includes a lot of 'situational guidance' as well for when one house hold/person IS vaccinated and one isn't, etc. They've also removed most restriction guidance on outdoor activities altogether.

 

To my knowledge, the vaccine was finally made available to all persons 16+ in all states either at the end of last week or beginning of this week. In short, I think that you haven't given enough time for the CDC to react and give updated guidance to a 'fully available vaccine' scenario as of yet.

 

I understand. I acknowledged that. If I came across as "CDC is going to make us wear masks forever", that wasn't my intent. I don't know what's going to happen. Just more my personal opinion that they should eventually ease mask restrictions and that the long-term practice of vaccinated individuals masking up in public is overkill.

[PeaveyFury]

Now you add in that they are likely to be around a majority of vaccinated adults and the risk is reduced even further.

 

Unfortunately, that's not really what's playing out right now, as the British variant is causing a ballooning of COVID infections in children despite the ever-increasing number of vaccinated adults around them right now.

 

Concerning for sure, and comes at a time when even the most cautious schools have largely reopened this spring. It'll be interesting to see if a shut-down/return to virtual discussion starts soon in hot spots.

[PeaveyFury]

I understand. I acknowledged that. If I came across as "CDC is going to make us wear masks forever", that wasn't my intent. I don't know what's going to happen. Just more my personal opinion that they should eventually ease mask restrictions and that the long-term practice of vaccinated individuals masking up in public is overkill.

 

I guess that, as I said, I'm puzzled by the intent of the post- the CDC has already show that they'll reduce restrictions in their guidance, and they're likely to do so again going forward. You cited as an example 'person masked riding a bicycle', which, to my knowledge isn't even in conformance with current guidance. That's a person either choosing to wear a mask personally, or someone who doesn't know the current guidelines.

 

Guidance/restrictions will adapt going forward, and likely very quickly, IMO.

[adambr2]

Now you add in that they are likely to be around a majority of vaccinated adults and the risk is reduced even further.

 

Unfortunately, that's not really what's playing out right now, as the British variant is causing a ballooning of COVID infections in children despite the ever-increasing number of vaccinated adults around them right now.

 

Concerning for sure, and comes at a time when even the most cautious schools have largely reopened this spring. It'll be interesting to see if a shut-down/return to virtual discussion starts soon in hot spots.

 

But has the British variant presented more of a lethal threat than the original strain of COVID?

 

My understanding is that it has not. I also certainly understand that modifications to policy may evolve over time as we learn more about the variants and the effectiveness of potential boosters against these variants.

[PeaveyFury]

But has the British variant presented more of a lethal threat than the original strain of COVID?

 

Not to my knowledge. But I'm sure the overarching concern will be that as infection numbers go up, hospitalization and possible death numbers will go up as well, even if it's consistent with previous ratios.

[igor67]

I've seen both it is more lethal, and that it has not been shown to but maybe more lethal in print for the British variant. I'm sure some of that has to do with it being a small enough number to begin with that getting enough data to be convincing is a challenge. It is an ultra weird time, the numbers in MN this week suggest that we may be peaking in case numbers, and if our hesitancy data is correct we maybe one of the few states to push into that 80%+ vaccinated territory. So the numbers could start to drop somewhat quickly. On the other hand some of our most local experiences have seen case numbers get high enough that we sent out a caution letter to our families asking for vigilance, so we don't need to shut down because our quarantine numbers were getting up there.

The Atlantic had an article with the headline America has Covid Senioritis. That pretty much sums it up. Aside from children immune compromised individuals are also at risk potentially even if they tried to be responsible themselves with the vaccine. So I'm not completely ready to simplify masking down to being something that only impacts the individual. That said I would rather not have to teach with a mask in the fall, but that may not be able to happen.

[Machu Peach]

I don't see a scientific justification for requiring fully vaccinated people to wear a mask. Infections of vaccinated people are quite rare, and deaths are even rarer. The idea that a significant number of vaccinated people can be infected asymptomatically and shed virus was alway dubious and has been disproven over the last few months.

 

It seems like some in the general population are greatly overestimating the efficacy of masks and greatly underestimating the efficacy of vaccination.

[MrTPlush]

Allowing vaccinated people to not wear a mask is a free pass for the anti-mask (and probably anti-vaccine crowd) to not wear their mask. I mean think about it, are you going to have a vaccine card checker at Walmart like you are getting into a movie?

[Machu Peach]

Allowing vaccinated people to not wear a mask is a free pass for the anti-mask (and probably anti-vaccine crowd) to not wear their mask. I mean think about it, are you going to have a vaccine card checker at Walmart like you are getting into a movie?

I specifically stated that I don't see a scientific justification. I did not comment on social, political, or enforcement justifications.

[PeaveyFury]

Allowing vaccinated people to not wear a mask is a free pass for the anti-mask (and probably anti-vaccine crowd) to not wear their mask. I mean think about it, are you going to have a vaccine card checker at Walmart like you are getting into a movie?

 

I think this is the larger justification that will keep a lot of the restrictions in place into the summer. Especially on the business/workplace-type restrictions.

[adambr2]

Allowing vaccinated people to not wear a mask is a free pass for the anti-mask (and probably anti-vaccine crowd) to not wear their mask. I mean think about it, are you going to have a vaccine card checker at Walmart like you are getting into a movie?

 

That crowd is not wearing their masks anyway. I can't speak for all businesses but in Central Wisconsin it's extremely loosely enforced. Walk into a Walmart and I would guess it's about 70% compliance at best right now. Go into a Kwik Trip and it's more like 50/50.

 

 

I haven't heard of a single business around here that will straight up force you to leave if you don't have a mask. Most have signs, but they don't enforce it.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

My Walmart is more like 20% compliance. Masks aren't even enforced at Miller Park. Ushers stand there with a sign that says masks over mouth and nose. Roughly half my section didn't bring it above their neck the entire game and just nursed peanuts or one beer the entire game to get around it.

[Fear The Chorizo]

I mean, Texas hasn't had a mask mandate in a little more than a month and they removed gathering restrictions as well. That's not to say they issued a "No mask" mandate that forced people not to wear masks, but if masks actually are the main reason COVID doesn't spread like wildfire they'd be seeing worse than their lowest extended run of new cases since last June - especially considering what's going on at their southern border right now from a COVID standpoint. I'm sure their numbers will go up again in June like they did last year when the air conditioners are running nonstop down there and everyone races back inside - but it won't be because people haven't been forced to wear masks since March.

 

If people actually choose not to get vaccinated to reduce their risk of severe symptomatic COVID, which is the strongest scientifically-based action they can take to protect themselves selfishly, people are going to then want to have indefinite and largely unenforceable mask/gathering restrictions many of those same folks won't adhere to anyway? Why not just get vaccinated and not worry about those that can't be persuaded to take advantage of it?

 

And once government as a whole lifts the mandates, businesses will fall like dominos right behind them - for businesses it's all about not having any chance of getting sued. For some reason the privately held drug companies manufacturing vaccines administered to the general public under an emergency use authorization have blanket liability protection, but by and large private businesses haven't been afforded that protection by Uncle Sam - at least to the point where they aren't still very gunshy.