COVID-19 Thread [V2.0]

[homer]

It's not like the risk is just with one's parents/grandparents. This thing doesn't travel with you to your gathering and stay there. Someone who is positive that gives it to a grandparent could easily give it to another family member who could then pass it on to someone else. The people who unknowingly catch it after it spreads at the gathering don't have the same say as the grandparents as to whether or not they choose to take the risk to get infected.

 

In a day to remember for the couple, but perhaps not for the reasons they had hoped, a 55-person wedding in a small town in Maine ended up giving half the guests Covid-19, leading to a coronavirus outbreak involving 177 people, killing 7 of them.

 

None of the 7 who died attended the wedding.

 

I realize few people will have 55 person get-togethers but I would not doubt if many are in the teens or even twenties.

 

And this one:

And it started with one person, in Chicago. A so-called “super-spreader.” That person went to a dinner. Then a funeral. Then a birthday party.

 

All the while, the coronavirus spread, moving from that first “index patient” to 15 others, killing three people in the end – one of whom shared take-out food with the “super-spreader.”

 

The two others who eventually died were at the birthday party.

 

Plenty of people will celebrate Christmas at a parent's house and then head over to the in-laws. My brother used to do 2 - 4 thanksgivings every year.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

How people handle Thanksgiving will be a crucial factor.

 

That's what worries me, along with the hunting opener next weekend. I've seen several posts and memes going around Facebook in the last few days indicating ideas like "you don't know how much time you have left with your loved ones, so don't sacrifice your holidays with them". It makes me want to slap those people upside the head. I mean, I get that family time and tradition is important, but if there was one time where it's prudent to break with tradition, this is the year to do it.

 

In your opinion it's prudent. Politicians say it's prudent- for everyone else but them. Slap me in the face, because it's not prudent for my family. I haven't see my siblings all year. More importantly, my parent haven't seen my siblings all year. Two of them have a few days off around Thanksgiving, and they are traveling back to WI. We are having everyone over at our house. Oh no!!!

 

You tell my parents who are 89 and 88 that they need to wait two years for the virus to pass to see their children and grandchildren. Yes, there's a chance one of us pass on the virus to them. Odds of that happening AND dying from it are way less than one of them dying from lots of other causes at their age over a two year period. They've seen over 24 people now test positive in their senior living community, between staff and residents. Not one has been hospitalized.

 

So they want to see everyone, not knowing when they'll get that opportunity again. Weighing the risk, this is an easy call to make. We won't even sing, just to be sure.

 

We keep focusing on these singular events like Trick or Treat, 4th of July, and Thanksgiving, when in reality there is probably just as much or more damage going on Friday night at the bar, people afraid to call in sick, etc. We have a tendency to tie things to easily blamable moments when it's probably not the reality of the situation. We could celebrate Thanksgiving as hermits and it won't matter because we did a wonderful job of spreading this before Thanksgiving. We'll keep on doing that.

[PeaveyFury]

We can still think 3 months from now a vaccine will make COVID go away

 

Woah, who said that?? I think we can all agree that the timelines of 'seeing our grandchildren next' and 'global control over the virus have differing end points....

 

 

The issue isn't so much getting together, it is not isolating or testing before and afterwards. So long as everyone either self-quarantines for two weeks or gets tested a couple of days before and self-quarantines afterwards for two weeks or until they can get tested 4-5 days later, there isn't much risk.

 

The problem is that the people who are getting together in larger groups generally aren't self-quarantining or testing before or afterwards and end up spreading well beyond the group.

 

Great points here, Louis.

[Machu Peach]

Honestly, I might actually support a voluntary COVID-like indemnity agreement that basically says 'I'm choosing to take my own risks, so you can treat others medically before me as a result.'

Think of the moral and ethical effects of such a policy. Think of other circumstances where similar logic can be applied (or misapplied). I would hope anyone would shun such a society.

[PeaveyFury]

Honestly, I might actually support a voluntary COVID-like indemnity agreement that basically says 'I'm choosing to take my own risks, so you can treat others medically before me as a result.'

Think of the moral and ethical effects of such a policy. Think of other circumstances where similar logic can be applied (or misapplied). I would hope anyone would shun such a society.

 

Would that there would be as much concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life on the other people around them. I view that as more serious than an improbable tongue-in-cheek hypothetical scenario posted on a baseball message board.

[Machu Peach]

Honestly, I might actually support a voluntary COVID-like indemnity agreement that basically says 'I'm choosing to take my own risks, so you can treat others medically before me as a result.'

Think of the moral and ethical effects of such a policy. Think of other circumstances where similar logic can be applied (or misapplied). I would hope anyone would shun such a society.

 

Would that there would be as much concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life on the other people around them. I view that as more serious than an improbable tongue-in-cheek hypothetical scenario posted on a baseball message board.

A good amount of the discussion here is just that.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I guess I am amazed at the lack of nuance in some of things that get said about this kind of thing.

 

Virtually no one is saying grandma and grandpa or whomever can't see their kids or grandkids for two years. Or even a year. Or even a month. The idea is to be smart. Be aware. Be decent to others.

 

If you are gathering together, get those attending to be smart about the event. Don't go drinking at a bar with a bunch of maskless people the weekend before. Don't have the kids do a get together with the neighbor kids in the days leading up to the holiday. Skip poker night for a week or two. Pass on church for a Sunday if you're able. Wear your mask. If you feel sick, pass on attending.

 

I have seen family members and friends over the last few months, but always planning ahead. It's NEVER 100% safe, but you can do so much to make it a safer event.

 

It's not always simple. And it's not always easy. Some people will do whatever they want no matter what the circumstances. And for some people, isolating is nearly impossible due to their jobs. But we can still make our interactions safer with a bit of thought and cooperation.

 

That's the problem Reilly, many people (including here) have no nuance. They are saying grandma and grandpa shouldn't see their kids. What you describe above is how I think most of us are handling this.

 

Nowhere did I say Grandma and Grandma shouldn't see their kids for 2 years. That is hyperbole. The point of my post is to maybe think about holding off on the 25-person Turkey/football party in favor of a Zoom meeting until there are more ICU beds available. I simply want people to be responsible. Maybe you believe you are? But it would stand to reason that large family gatherings could very well be super spreader events. Hopefully things are back to normal by this time next year. I would prefer seeing people not get seriously ill or die if it can be avoided.

[jerichoholicninja]

I guess I am amazed at the lack of nuance in some of things that get said about this kind of thing.

 

Virtually no one is saying grandma and grandpa or whomever can't see their kids or grandkids for two years. Or even a year. Or even a month. The idea is to be smart. Be aware. Be decent to others.

 

If you are gathering together, get those attending to be smart about the event. Don't go drinking at a bar with a bunch of maskless people the weekend before. Don't have the kids do a get together with the neighbor kids in the days leading up to the holiday. Skip poker night for a week or two. Pass on church for a Sunday if you're able. Wear your mask. If you feel sick, pass on attending.

 

I have seen family members and friends over the last few months, but always planning ahead. It's NEVER 100% safe, but you can do so much to make it a safer event.

 

It's not always simple. And it's not always easy. Some people will do whatever they want no matter what the circumstances. And for some people, isolating is nearly impossible due to their jobs. But we can still make our interactions safer with a bit of thought and cooperation.

 

That's the problem Reilly, many people (including here) have no nuance. They are saying grandma and grandpa shouldn't see their kids. What you describe above is how I think most of us are handling this.

 

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

[PeaveyFury]

Would that there would be as much concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life on the other people around them. I view that as more serious than an improbable tongue-in-cheek hypothetical scenario posted on a baseball message board.

A good amount of the discussion here is just that.

 

We certainly have a whole sub-forum dedicated to improbable hypothetical scenarios. How much of the Hader thread is tongue-in-cheek, though, I don't know!

[Machu Peach]

Would that there would be as much concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life on the other people around them. I view that as more serious than an improbable tongue-in-cheek hypothetical scenario posted on a baseball message board.

A good amount of the discussion here is just that.

 

We certainly have a whole sub-forum dedicated to improbable hypothetical scenarios. How much of the Hader thread is tongue-in-cheek, though, I don't know!

I meant there's a lot of "concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life" in this very thread, but I think you may have known that.

[PeaveyFury]

I meant there's a lot of "concern in society about the moral and ethical effects of the choices people are currently making in real life" in this very thread, but I think you may have known that.

 

Indeed. But I only had a funny response to one of the possible interpretations.

[FVBrewerFan]

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

 

"The experts" have been wrong about just about everything Covid related, so I won't be following their advice, no.

 

Virus is not spread by human/human contact. (When it was already proven it does.)

Virus is not spread airborne.

Facemasks do not help.

Facemasks DO help prevent spreading to others, but doesn't protect you.

Facemasks DO protect you as well.

No way will vaccine be ready by the end of the year.

 

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019. But results of the Denmark study will never be made public, because politics come before public health.

 

Covid-19 is spread from symptomatic people coming into contact with others. Can someone who's asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread it, sure, probably. But largely unproven, especially the chance of spread. So take precautions, of course. But there's no reason not to have Thanksgiving and Christmas.

[PeaveyFury]

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019.

 

Links?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

 

"The experts" have been wrong about just about everything Covid related, so I won't be following their advice, no.

 

Virus is not spread by human/human contact. (When it was already proven it does.)

Virus is not spread airborne.

Facemasks do not help.

Facemasks DO help prevent spreading to others, but doesn't protect you.

Facemasks DO protect you as well.

No way will vaccine be ready by the end of the year.

 

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019. But results of the Denmark study will never be made public, because politics come before public health.

 

Covid-19 is spread from symptomatic people coming into contact with others. Can someone who's asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread it, sure, probably. But largely unproven, especially the chance of spread. So take precautions, of course. But there's no reason not to have Thanksgiving and Christmas.

 

I think masks work to some degree but that degree has been drastically overstated and too many are acting like it is a magic shield. I'm mostly with you though. I don't say it to anybody because it's just not worth fighting. So much of this is posturing and using any kind of study at this point as concrete evidence as to why one place did well and another didn't is just so premature. I wear one everywhere because it's easy but I've never really believed it's doing a whole lot.

 

My belief is that in the end, Korea and New Zealand will have benefited from easily sealed off borders and extremely healthy people more than some fabric and distancing. That won't be stated conclusively until years from now though.

[homer]

Masks work to reduce the viral load. There is nearly universal agreement on that as far as I know. They are not a panacea but they seem to be the one thing that has been hard for people to do thus it's a huge focus in the news and elsewhere.

 

And as for the "Experts" being wrong...the media does a really bad job of reporting science. A single study or model is not proof of anything. We are seeing study and peer review play out in real-time. Things have to be replicated before it becomes settled science and it oftentimes takes a lot of back and forth and sifting and winnowing to get there. So yes, one study in one particular environment with one particular set of subjects might say one thing but that doesn't mean the results are all encompassing.

 

Also, we don't have a vaccine yet. We have two promising trials.

[monkeyman343434]

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

 

"The experts" have been wrong about just about everything Covid related, so I won't be following their advice, no.

 

Virus is not spread by human/human contact. (When it was already proven it does.)

Virus is not spread airborne.

Facemasks do not help.

Facemasks DO help prevent spreading to others, but doesn't protect you.

Facemasks DO protect you as well.

No way will vaccine be ready by the end of the year.

 

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019. But results of the Denmark study will never be made public, because politics come before public health.

 

Covid-19 is spread from symptomatic people coming into contact with others. Can someone who's asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread it, sure, probably. But largely unproven, especially the chance of spread. So take precautions, of course. But there's no reason not to have Thanksgiving and Christmas.

 

And it is thanks to people like you, that people like me won't be seeing their families for the holidays.

[Outlander]

Covid would be here with or without the wearing of masks. Doubt you would be visiting your family for Thanksgiving or Christmas either way because there is no vaccine yet and you don't want to put your family at risk.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

 

"The experts" have been wrong about just about everything Covid related, so I won't be following their advice, no.

 

Virus is not spread by human/human contact. (When it was already proven it does.)

Virus is not spread airborne.

Facemasks do not help.

Facemasks DO help prevent spreading to others, but doesn't protect you.

Facemasks DO protect you as well.

No way will vaccine be ready by the end of the year.

 

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019. But results of the Denmark study will never be made public, because politics come before public health.

 

Covid-19 is spread from symptomatic people coming into contact with others. Can someone who's asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread it, sure, probably. But largely unproven, especially the chance of spread. So take precautions, of course. But there's no reason not to have Thanksgiving and Christmas.

 

And it is thanks to people like you, that people like me won't be seeing their families for the holidays.

 

Pretty much exactly the sentiment I'm referring to that has way too much traction. There's been way too much "whose fault is this" and not enough of the acknowledgment of the fact 70 million Americans are obese, a bunch of those people have at least one other comorbidity, the fact that obesity and poverty are correlated, and who is less likely to be able to get out of work, or have a job that can be done at home? Poor people. Without taking a position on these things, we can't pretend that stuff like UBI doesn't have an influence here.

 

This has just become way too much of a black and white thing when it is loaded with gray.

[PeaveyFury]

Pretty much exactly the sentiment I'm referring to that has way too much traction. There's been way too much "whose fault is this" and not enough of the acknowledgment of the fact 70 million Americans are obese, a bunch of those people have at least one other comorbidity, the fact that obesity and poverty are correlated, and who is less likely to be able to get out of work, or have a job that can be done at home? Poor people. Without taking a position on these things, we can't pretend that stuff like UBI doesn't have an influence here.

 

This has just become way too much of a black and white thing when it is loaded with gray.

 

I don't think any part of your point/argument is untrue. But what's lost on this is that there are steps like social distancing, masks, limited gatherings etc. that would still help control this more DESPITE those issues you note, and people continue to choose not to follow them for various reasons. That IS a failure of society, beyond our general level of unhealthy living.

 

I heard recently that when surveyed well into the pandemic, only ~76% of people said they currently wash their hands before eating. Not when returning from a public setting, not after touching a shared surface, but IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO PUTTING FOOD IN THEIR MOUTH DURING A PANDEMIC. It's astounding that a large percentage of the population is so unwilling to change their behaviors even the smallest of amounts.

[homer]

New case totals for Illinois and Wisconsin today are almost identical to what they were one week ago (Wisconsin is a wee bit higher). So it's possible we are at peak or just about at peak. Obviously, deaths are gonna go up since they lag but it's possible (fingers crossed) we start to see a drop in cases. The next two or three days should be interesting.

[reillymcshane]

New case totals for Illinois and Wisconsin today are almost identical to what they were one week ago (Wisconsin is a wee bit higher). So it's possible we are at peak or just about at peak. Obviously, deaths are gonna go up since they lag but it's possible (fingers crossed) we start to see a drop in cases. The next two or three days should be interesting.

Last week, my wife told me her system was expecting things to double by early/mid-December. Let's hope not.

 

The difficult thing is that their modeling for the virus has been pretty accurate since the summer - although it's been underestimating totals a bit of late. Again, let's hope it doesn't happen.

 

I should stress this is the number of hospitalizations.

[LouisEly]

I heard recently that when surveyed well into the pandemic, only ~76% of people said they currently wash their hands before eating. Not when returning from a public setting, not after touching a shared surface, but IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO PUTTING FOOD IN THEIR MOUTH DURING A PANDEMIC. It's astounding that a large percentage of the population is so unwilling to change their behaviors even the smallest of amounts.

There is no evidence that COVID-19 can be transmitted through food:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/community-based.html

 

Congregating around food, yes. Touching certain parts of your face while eating food, maybe. Through the consumption of food, no.

[PeaveyFury]

I heard recently that when surveyed well into the pandemic, only ~76% of people said they currently wash their hands before eating. Not when returning from a public setting, not after touching a shared surface, but IMMEDIATELY PRIOR TO PUTTING FOOD IN THEIR MOUTH DURING A PANDEMIC. It's astounding that a large percentage of the population is so unwilling to change their behaviors even the smallest of amounts.

There is no evidence that COVID-19 can be transmitted through food:

 

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/community/organizations/community-based.html

 

Congregating around food, yes. Touching certain parts of your face while eating food, maybe. Through the consumption of food, no.

 

Missed my point here a bit: As one of the continued tenets of general personal hygiene is hand washing whether during COVID times or cold and flu season, etc., if you’re not willing to wash your hands even now prior to eating, you’re not going to wash your hands ever.

[FVBrewerFan]

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019.

 

Links?

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.worldhealth.net/news/why-wont-anyone-publish-danish-mask-study/&ved=2ahUKEwju-Y7884rtAhWFQc0KHUGbDj0QFjAEegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3bclnU9FEV1ta8dYfhzoql

[FVBrewerFan]

Isn't that exactly what health experts and leaders are saying though? Everything I see says to not gather with people not from your household. Wouldn't that mean gather only with the people you live with and, in the vast majority of cases, exclude grandparents?

 

"The experts" have been wrong about just about everything Covid related, so I won't be following their advice, no.

 

Virus is not spread by human/human contact. (When it was already proven it does.)

Virus is not spread airborne.

Facemasks do not help.

Facemasks DO help prevent spreading to others, but doesn't protect you.

Facemasks DO protect you as well.

No way will vaccine be ready by the end of the year.

 

Denmark completed the largest randomized controlled study of masks. Result? They don't work. Same thing WHO found in 2019. But results of the Denmark study will never be made public, because politics come before public health.

 

Covid-19 is spread from symptomatic people coming into contact with others. Can someone who's asymptomatic or presymptomatic spread it, sure, probably. But largely unproven, especially the chance of spread. So take precautions, of course. But there's no reason not to have Thanksgiving and Christmas.

 

And it is thanks to people like you, that people like me won't be seeing their families for the holidays.

 

That's your choice monkey.