COVID-19 Thread [V2.0]

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Correct, it will continue to be mostly ignored outside of he cities. But keeping the order in place does give some backing to a business who does choose to follow/enforce it to be able to say "hey the government says it's the rule" so don't yell at me. And for that business to at least have their employees do it even if they don't want to fight with customers. And, it keeps it in place in the cities, which it seems to me have been doing ok throughout in keeping low numbers and not having our state be a problem state (exception being the bringing students back which was obviously going to spike numbers).

 

 

Kwik Trip chooses to ignore the mask mandate all together. They have big signs on their doors saying MASK REQUIRED to enter, but more than half of their customers do not wear a mask. I asked an employee why that was the case, she told me that employees are not allowed to say anything to the non mask wearing customers.

 

Granted, I stop in frequently between 6:30 and 7:30 am, and the majority of their customers at that time are blue collar working type young men who I am sure don't want the inconvenience of having to throw a mask on to stop in the store for their Monster/energy drinks, cigarettes, and chew. That and they are probably just giving a giant middle finger to being told what they have to do.

 

Again, I don't like wearing a mask, but it is for the greater good, so I do it.

 

It's irritating that so many ignore the mandate in such a close public place, but that is just how Kwik Trip rolls. Kwik Trip is Gutless.

 

Also ironic and somewhat irritating that many of the people ignoring the mask mandate are also those who are arguing "but I thought masks work" when the positive case numbers spike. I get the feeling those people were always extremely selfish, but that selfishness is now on display like a scarlet letter.

[TURBO]

Correct, it will continue to be mostly ignored outside of he cities. But keeping the order in place does give some backing to a business who does choose to follow/enforce it to be able to say "hey the government says it's the rule" so don't yell at me. And for that business to at least have their employees do it even if they don't want to fight with customers. And, it keeps it in place in the cities, which it seems to me have been doing ok throughout in keeping low numbers and not having our state be a problem state (exception being the bringing students back which was obviously going to spike numbers).

 

 

Kwik Trip chooses to ignore the mask mandate all together. They have big signs on their doors saying MASK REQUIRED to enter, but more than half of their customers do not wear a mask. I asked an employee why that was the case, she told me that employees are not allowed to say anything to the non mask wearing customers.

 

Granted, I stop in frequently between 6:30 and 7:30 am, and the majority of their customers at that time are blue collar working type young men who I am sure don't want the inconvenience of having to throw a mask on to stop in the store for their Monster/energy drinks, cigarettes, and chew. That and they are probably just giving a giant middle finger to being told what they have to do.

 

Again, I don't like wearing a mask, but it is for the greater good, so I do it.

 

It's irritating that so many ignore the mandate in such a close public place, but that is just how Kwik Trip rolls. Kwik Trip is Gutless.

 

Also ironic and somewhat irritating that many of the people ignoring the mask mandate are also those who are arguing "but I thought masks work" when the positive case numbers spike. I get the feeling those people were always extremely selfish, but that selfishness is now on display like a scarlet letter.

 

I'd just like to see Kwik Trip be more like Menards... You MUST have a mask on to enter this store, PERIOD! It was a tough first couple weeks for Menards I'm sure, but it has worked out for them. Why can't Kwik Trip do the same? Probably too late now, they'd need a bouncer at each location to enforce it.

[PeaveyFury]

Menards was an early, early adopter of a mask requirement, which is actually very surprising considering how late the retail industry took to adopt mask requirements and the fact that their direct competitors like Home Depot did not do so.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think many that sent kids back, including myself, knew full well there would be cases, both reported and unreported. So I don't think it's foolish to say it has been successful up to this point. In our district, that's fair to say. It's been amazingly successful one month in, in large part due to how organized the school has been from day one and how well planned the day to day schedule was. Life is 1000x better than it was in March trying to virtual school a kindergartener.

 

My neighbor's wife has cystic fibrosis and is on a 3rd set of lungs, they naturally opted for virtual. If we had a live-in grandpa or something I'd have done the same. My comments though are more geared toward elementary where the kids schedules and interactions outside of school are completely controlled by parents. Totally different with older kids.

[CheezWizHed]

I wouldn't be too harsh on Kwik Trip and especially not the workers. A lot of stores have this stance because confrontation doesn't always go well either. Even the stores that do enforce it like Walmart (my local one has a guard on duty) and Menards have people walking around inside with the mask under their nose or down on their chin. People are people.

 

My daughter attends a small (~1000) university that is doing in-person instruction and things have been going well so far. A few kids have been isolated for symptoms, but no one has had COVID. When we were on campus, kids were sticking to the rules pretty well - wearing masks inside, though maybe not so much social distancing. So it seems to be working for them. She's been there about 4 weeks now.

 

Two of my kids have been attending high school in person and things are going well also (2.5 weeks so far).

[reillymcshane]

We could be seeing a sharp increase in serious COVID cases in some parts of the state. A lot of the smaller hospitals in northern/central Wisconsin are running out of beds for COVID patients. You've got people coming down from the UP, and even from eastern Minnesota/western Wisconsin who would normally go to the Twin Cities). The numbers are not encouraging, and the modeling they have available is a bit scary (but it's just modeling, so it's not gospel).

 

Why is this happening? Well, as you can imagine schools re-opening is a big suspect. Also, there's the simple fact that the virus is probably just takes longer to reach some of the more rural areas.

[Zad Fnark]

 

I'd just like to see Kwik Trip be more like Menards... You MUST have a mask on to enter this store, PERIOD! It was a tough first couple weeks for Menards I'm sure, but it has worked out for them. Why can't Kwik Trip do the same? Probably too late now, they'd need a bouncer at each location to enforce it.

 

 

Kwik Trips by me don't seem to have this issue. I see masks on everyone.

[jerichoholicninja]

yeah I was mostly just trying to illustrate that some folks are very dug in on their COVID positions.

 

I'm a conservative, and for me, I have decided that mask wearing is a good thing. (it sucks to wear them, but it's for the greater good)

 

I know other conservatives that are like me, and have done the right thing, so for me, it isn't political at all.

 

I get what you and others are saying though, the fact that COVID is political just tells you where we are as a society, and it ain't good.

 

There is a strong correlation with one's politics but it's all the college kids getting it now. More than likely young liberal, Democrat leaning who should be "taking this seriously" but clearly aren't.

[SoCalBrewfan]

However, I feel like I need to mention that when I talk with infectious disease scientists and doctors they are far less declarative and certain about their statements than many people here and in the general public.

 

One of the longterm challenges of science communication is that scientists are naturally cautious and skeptical, and should be. That is especially true with an emergent phenomenon like this one.

 

That caution, and the natural back and force of models, predictions, and observations, can lead non-scientists to conclude that science changes every day and experts don't know anything. You can see that in this thread, and in national news, with COVID, with climate science, with all sorts of things. The voices that seem certain can get amplified, particularly now with social media, and then you have people certain that young people can't get sick, or that warm weather will end the outbreak, or that hydroxychloroquine is a miracle cure.

 

Then, as consensus begins to emerge, people point to the uncertainty and say, see, nobody knows anything, I'm just going to do what I want. Or they haven't paid close attention and still think the early reporting is accurate. Some of that is genuine confusion, but in other cases it is not in good faith. Actors with vested interests play up the doubt, e.g. tobacco companies and their purchased politicians for years pretending that the evidence on smoking was inconclusive. Fossil fuel companies have played that game for years, so that despite overwhelming evidence, plenty of Americans including many political leaders at least pretend that climate change is a hoax.

 

When an issue becomes politicized any hope of rational discussion and learning seems to vanish. I remember being super doubtful about masks, actually making fun of someone at the dentist office in early March, but as evidence emerged that they were helpful, I changed my mind.

 

I simply cannot accept the claim that Americans can't deal with this virus. It's not rocket science, it just requires effort and leadership and people willing to do things for the greater good. Those used to be things that Americans valued...

 

Kind of an aside, but,

 

Additionally, I have never heard from any real scientist that national-level political fights were influencing their research (other than funding and whatnot).

 

'Other than funding' is kind of a big deal though; that determines whether the research happens or not and even whether the lab remains open. I have acquaintances whose labs lost funding for climate related work, and I knew a bunch of PhD students whose dissertation work disappeared when the Superconducting Super Collider was cancelled. A close friend had balloon observations cancelled due to US-Russia relations going sour at one point. As far as I know nobody's going to a bench chemist giving political instructions, but if your proposal is rejected, or your whole funding line at NSF or EPA is eliminated, that's careers postponed or eliminated. (NIH has seemed to be freer from these issues and my physical and earth science colleagues are endlessly jealous of what seems like endless and unencumbered pots of NIH money in biomedical work.)

[SoCalBrewfan]

I wouldn't be too harsh on Kwik Trip and especially not the workers. A lot of stores have this stance because confrontation doesn't always go well either.

 

Yeah, wanting low-paid retail workers to enforce mask rules is asking a lot; they've probably all seen the videos of people losing their minds and getting violent. I've heard of a few restaurants in SoCal that have closed for the duration because of people hassling their counter staff; from the few times that I have gone out, the vast majority of people seem to follow the rules but some of the ones that don't are really obnoxious about it.

 

Of course those low-paid workers, often young and unable to work from home due to the nature of these jobs, are then also terribly vulnerable to getting the virus themselves; at least some of the spread among younger people is due to that rather than their feeling invulnerable or anything like that. I teach college kids (all online, thankfully) and many of them are under a ton of pressure because of the competing fears of losing jobs in this economy and being exposed.

[tmwiese55]

I don't blame Kwik Trip for not wanting to fight with people, you're paying someone $11/hr and now they have to confront and get in fights with people (and get close to strangers in the process). Why not put the focus on the people themselves who won't listen.

 

Yea I look back on some of the micro anal stuff at the beginning and kind of chuckle a bit, and did at the time. I remember the chains on my park's hoops being tied up and thinking it. Some of the 'for show' things still going on now but I guess the early things you can kind of brush off as folks just didn't know so be cautious while it's figured out.

 

A thing to remember when ripping on scientists for not knowing everything is that this process is being played out publicly. The process of figuring this stuff out is usually behind closed doors with no public watching. So testing theories and finding out which are right/wrong isn't something the public sees. Now, they see one thing that ends up not being 100% accurate and it means these guys are all idiots and/or on of 'they' who is making this all up. People dedicating their life to science and helping people usually for not a ton of money or notoriety, get ripped on by people sitting around at home who don't know anything.

 

For politics in things like CDC, there is plenty of stuff out on that and has been leaked on the pressures their getting from the administration. They had to change those testing guidelines a few weeks ago from it. Then have to pull back on things like the recent spread info. Administration contradicts them on vaccine stuff. It would be nice if these people were just allowed to give their best info/help they can without having to worry about it. It would be nice to think these people are honest and doing their best instead of accusing/treating them as corrupted, incompetent, or dishonest. But of course, the people reporting that are part of the 'they' so must be making it up and/or the people leaking are part of the 'they' as well.

 

I'd generally agree with folks saying schools seem to be ok so far a month-ish in. I'm sure it helps having the cities remote though so the ones open are the less risky spots, which makes sense. Question to those close, remember the issue brought up before about the standard about treating any symptom as if it's covid? Most of us here said how if you're actually going to enforce that it's kind of pointless to open. Has common sense kind of taken over to have some leeway on that, even if the actual protocol wasn't officially change?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

My kids have gone to school with mild coughs/runny noses though both have seasonal allergies just like their parents so if they enforced that they'd never have made it through one day. The fever seems to be the red button symptom. They don't seem to be doing anything about other things besides obvious stuff like puking. I know a few pukers were sent home but that's all I've heard.

[SoCalBrewfan]

I wouldn't hate it if the norm of going to school or work with cold or flu would become less prevalent. I have been as guilty as anyone, but it's kind of gross to teach a class of coughing, dripping zombies.

[tmwiese55]

Lol yup, hopefully that is a lasting change that comes from this experience. I'm one who almost never gets sick, but I still find it gross having to sit there near people hacking up a lung, blowing their nose constantly, etc. Have to assume a school with young kids is even worse.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Work is one thing, but that's impossible in school. 1/4 of any class of kids under 10 has runny noses on any given day. You would rack up so many absences and the teacher would be playing catch up with a handful of kids every day of the school year. Someone has to sit at home with those kids too. It's just not possible. Fevers, vomitting, severe cold is one thing. But kids get sniffles and need to keep it moving.

[pacopete4]

If any of that is going to change, our society needs to change a bit. We do not provide enough time off for most working Americans. So in short, most parents are going to shove their kid off as much as they can to keep from staying home themselves. It sucks that our framework has been setup that way but it would be a big change to maybe more happy, healthy people here in the US.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If any of that is going to change, our society needs to change a bit. We do not provide enough time off for most working Americans. So in short, most parents are going to shove their kid off as much as they can to keep from staying home themselves. It sucks that our framework has been setup that way but it would be a big change to maybe more happy, healthy people here in the US.

 

This is 100% correct, and has even gotten worse in recent years, as many companies have stopped differentiating between "sick time" and "vacation time". It may look trivial, but it actually disincentivizes people from actually staying home when they are ill, so they don't burn their valuable vacation time. Corporate America sucks sometimes.

[TURBO]

I didn't blame the Kwik Trip workers at all, I was more curious what the employee would say if I asked why they aren't making their customers follow the mandate.

 

It's just so hypocritical to place those signs on all the entrance doors, then completely ignore them.

[tmwiese55]

If any of that is going to change, our society needs to change a bit. We do not provide enough time off for most working Americans. So in short, most parents are going to shove their kid off as much as they can to keep from staying home themselves. It sucks that our framework has been setup that way but it would be a big change to maybe more happy, healthy people here in the US.

 

This is 100% correct, and has even gotten worse in recent years, as many companies have stopped differentiating between "sick time" and "vacation time". It may look trivial, but it actually disincentivizes people from actually staying home when they are ill, so they don't burn their valuable vacation time. Corporate America sucks sometimes.

 

Yup, and there will likely be a large shift to allowing remote work. This should have opened many companies eyes that many jobs don't need to sit at a desk for 9 hours straight to get the same results. We have an outdated model dating back to the factory/assembly line days which needs to be modernized.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I was remote 3x a week before Covid and haven't been in since March. I'm not obligated to return until Jan 4, but it keeps getting pushed back. I doubt I ever go back on a regular basis.

[owbc]

Remote work is here to stay, no doubt, the question is at what level. Many companies are sensing an opportunity to save $ and are starting to pair compensation with location--10-20% pay cut in exchange for working remotely from an area with a lower cost of living. Plus the opportunity to save on office space. Although in exchange, some are funding home office upgrades.

 

My sister in law has been working a new job for 6 months now and has only ever met one of her coworkers in person. I don't think we know if such a situation is sustainable in the long term.

[FVBrewerFan]

I didn't blame the Kwik Trip workers at all, I was more curious what the employee would say if I asked why they aren't making their customers follow the mandate.

 

It's just so hypocritical to place those signs on all the entrance doors, then completely ignore them.

 

While this could very well be corporate policy, to be fair it could also just be the local store manager or some supervisor who told the employee what the policy is. Hard to notice at the Kwik Trips here in western Waukesha county, since I'm usually the only one wearing a mask at most places not just Kwik Trip.

[Machu Peach]

Additionally, I have never heard from any real scientist that national-level political fights were influencing their research (other than funding and whatnot).

 

'Other than funding' is kind of a big deal though; that determines whether the research happens or not and even whether the lab remains open.

 

Of course this is the case; that's why I mentioned funding. Research priorities (ie funding levels) change frequently due to all sorts of things, including politics, overall funding levels, public interest, scientific merit/progress, and overall potential.

 

I clearly was saying that the idea that labs researching COVID are being suppressed (or non-funded) if they don't produce the 'correct' results is, in my experience, conspiracy theory level nonsense. I have never seen it nor heard of it from any of my coworkers. Maybe it occurs somewhere and/or I'm just blind, but I've spent years working in government labs and I've seen zero indication of it.

 

The idea of writing off research from the CDC and NIH because it's too politicized is just as ridiculous, in my opinion, as writing off climate change research from NOAA because someone feels that organization is too politicized. Most people will cling to the moral highground of "trust the science" when it suits their politics but will then completely write it off when it doesn't.

[tmwiese55]

Yea to clarify what I meant on CDC. I absolutely would trust the science people involved, but there is an abundance of reports those people are not being allowed to just say what they're finding and what they currently think. So I don't think pointing out how they're going back and forth on some things should be viewed as some indictment on scientists overall like was being pushed here as evidence that scientist don't know what they're doing. They say something, then they have to deal with the admin/powers correcting them to align with the politics. And having clear politically motivated things pushed out from them they don't agree with. So I think I phrased poorly initially, probably should've focused on the communications/messaging that is leading to mixed messages, not the actual science. I trust the science people fully, I wish the politicians would let them do their thing and stay out of it. Essentially i'm saying don't hold it against the science people with what's going on with the CDC comms right now.

[JosephC]

I didn't blame the Kwik Trip workers at all, I was more curious what the employee would say if I asked why they aren't making their customers follow the mandate.

 

It's just so hypocritical to place those signs on all the entrance doors, then completely ignore them.

 

While this could very well be corporate policy, to be fair it could also just be the local store manager or some supervisor who told the employee what the policy is. Hard to notice at the Kwik Trips here in western Waukesha county, since I'm usually the only one wearing a mask at most places not just Kwik Trip.

 

Look out man, you are going to ruin the narrative. Waukesha County currently has 236 cases per 100,000 over the last 14 days which ranks 47th out of Wisconsin's 72 counties.