COVID-19 Thread [V2.0]

[PeaveyFury]

Basically, we are a weak and selfish culture.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

I haven't enjoyed the mask wearing, social distancing and the lack of social interaction at all, but it is for the good of the community, the people I love, etc, so I have done what needs to be done. (if I am honest with myself, there are times when using the pandemic as an excuse not to see some people works out great, often in fact. lol)

 

It's too bad that so many only think about themselves and are unable to inconvenience themselves, even for the greater good.

 

This is so sad and accurate.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Basically, we are a weak and selfish culture.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

I haven't enjoyed the mask wearing, social distancing and the lack of social interaction at all, but it is for the good of the community, the people I love, etc, so I have done what needs to be done. (if I am honest with myself, there are times when using the pandemic as an excuse not to see some people works out great, often in fact. lol)

 

It's too bad that so many only think about themselves and are unable to inconvenience themselves, even for the greater good.

 

This is why today's extension of the mask mandate is likely to make little difference. Because many people will complain about it being extended, then go right on ignoring to it, like they have for months. Also why this thing isn't going away any time soon, unfortunately.

[tmwiese55]

Correct, it will continue to be mostly ignored outside of he cities. But keeping the order in place does give some backing to a business who does choose to follow/enforce it to be able to say "hey the government says it's the rule" so don't yell at me. And for that business to at least have their employees do it even if they don't want to fight with customers. And, it keeps it in place in the cities, which it seems to me have been doing ok throughout in keeping low numbers and not having our state be a problem state (exception being the bringing students back which was obviously going to spike numbers).

 

To add to Turbo's and Peavy's, it's sad or too bad much of it also comes from the need to sit in a bar and get drunk. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy that as much as the next guy. But a big chunk of this issue is straight from bars. Which I obviously feel bad for the bar owners just trying to keep their business, and that's where govt assistance should have come in to help them. But I do see an irony when looking at bars and then the University system though. Obviously the vast majority of people with the U would've been on the "this is serious, trust science etc" side the whole time and been ones to say bars shouldn't open. Well, bar owners needed money so they open. Push comes to shove, the university chose money the exact same way.

[FVBrewerFan]

Bars causing spikes makes sense when you think about it, but has this even been proven in Wisconsin or elsewhere? I'm not doubting it, just interested if there's been anything to back up the theory.

 

Either way, that's just the way it is. This could go on for another year, or longer, regardless of what Trump/Biden or Evers do. By then every bar, restaurant, and lots of other businesses will be out of business. That just can't happen. Isolate the at risk population, otherwise open it all up 100%. Even though case count hasn't gone down, deaths have- drastically. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to support herd immunity is really the only way to end this quickly. We can't hide in the corner for two years, for a whole lot of reasons.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

In fact, there's plenty of evidence to support herd immunity is really the only way to end this quickly. We can't hide in the corner for two years, for a whole lot of reasons.

 

There's also plenty of evidence pointing to the idea that the idea of "herd immunity" is a complete myth, and an attempt to achieve it would lead to millions of deaths. I mean, I can show you "evidence" that the earth is flat, too, but that doesn't mean you should believe it.

[jerichoholicninja]

Bars causing spikes makes sense when you think about it, but has this even been proven in Wisconsin or elsewhere? I'm not doubting it, just interested if there's been anything to back up the theory.

 

I read an article last week that said it's not bars and parties but the fact that the 20-30ish group of people don't have the luxury of working from home that much of the older group of people do. I can see there being truth for both situations.

 

Either way, that's just the way it is. This could go on for another year, or longer, regardless of what Trump/Biden or Evers do. By then every bar, restaurant, and lots of other businesses will be out of business. That just can't happen. Isolate the at risk population, otherwise open it all up 100%. Even though case count hasn't gone down, deaths have- drastically. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to support herd immunity is really the only way to end this quickly. We can't hide in the corner for two years, for a whole lot of reasons.

 

This is the truth but you can't pit one group of people against another using this line of thinking so it will never be mainstream. Either it's a complete hoax or you'll die if you leave your house and kill grandma too.

[PeaveyFury]

Bars causing spikes makes sense when you think about it, but has this even been proven in Wisconsin or elsewhere? I'm not doubting it, just interested if there's been anything to back up the theory.

 

I read an article last week that said it's not bars and parties but the fact that the 20-30ish group of people don't have the luxury of working from home that much of the older group of people do. I can see there being truth for both situations.

 

It's almost certainly the former that's the issue in Wisconsin right now, as the spikes have largely taken place in college cities in September, for obvious reasons.

[PeaveyFury]

In fact, there's plenty of evidence to support herd immunity is really the only way to end this quickly. We can't hide in the corner for two years, for a whole lot of reasons.

 

There's also plenty of evidence pointing to the idea that the idea of "herd immunity" is a complete myth, and an attempt to achieve it would lead to millions of deaths. I mean, I can show you "evidence" that the earth is flat, too, but that doesn't mean you should believe it.

 

Yep. 'Herd immunity' seems to be COVID-code for 'I need an excuse to not feel bad for doing what I want to the potential detriment of others.'

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

In fact, there's plenty of evidence to support herd immunity is really the only way to end this quickly. We can't hide in the corner for two years, for a whole lot of reasons.

 

There's also plenty of evidence pointing to the idea that the idea of "herd immunity" is a complete myth, and an attempt to achieve it would lead to millions of deaths. I mean, I can show you "evidence" that the earth is flat, too, but that doesn't mean you should believe it.

 

Yep. 'Herd immunity' seems to be COVID-code for 'I need an excuse to not feel bad for doing what I want to the potential detriment of others.

 

Especially when there is loads of actual, verifiable proof from all over the world that shows that social distancing and masking up effectively fights this thing. Of course, that means that people actually need to do them. That's why it's bad here ... that "I do what I want" mentality.

[tmwiese55]

Good posts guys. This isn't really that complicated as far as how it spreads and how to stop/slow it, yet people keep trying to grasp at straws to undermine. The complication comes into the ramifications of actually doing it, people's incomes, businesses going under, schooling, childcare etc. Then how to find a balance that is most amicable for most amount of people. Which is where I mentioned govt support for bars/restaurants, there was some of in the stimulus but nothing compared to us bailing big business and end goal of keep stocks up. Obviously that is not an easy problem to solve no matter what side of politics you're on, but it would be nice if we could just focus on those issues instead of having to waste time arguing with people still (after 6+ months of being basically wrong every step of the way) trying to undermine the basic science, which isn't really complicated at all.

[FVBrewerFan]

Basic science changes by the day. Now the CDC modified their position on airborne spread yet again. Spreading from bars is also not science, it's theory. Kids gather together at college anywhere, everywhere.

 

Equating herd mentality with flat earthers is not being intellectually honest. Borderline being unnecessarily argumentative. I won't post it again, but gighly tespected people at Stanford, Yale, and elsewhere have laid out the case for herd immunity. Nobody knows for sure what would work best.

[JackNicholson1974]

This is an observation and not a political post, but if Mods dont like it, I understand, you can delete...

 

I think what makes COVID hard for the United States is that it has been made very political. I can see an alternate reality where a leader of a nation - any leader, any nation - who may have lower approval ratings, uses this situation to say to their country "this COVID thing is coming, its going to be hard, its going to take a lot from all of us, but my administration will be working with your governors, with experts and drs to coordinate a comprehensive plan to beat this, we are One Nation and together we can move past this and be stronger..." I think that type of response, while not ever winning over the haters, would have won over a lot of middle ground folks and solidified support for that leader going forward. And over time could create a legacy.

 

Unfortunately here in this country, COVID was a huge inconvenience for the current admin and it was was treated as something that is not a big deal. Consequently, as a nation, we have gotten so tribal on both sides that we often align completely with what our tribe's position is, and we cannot get out of that mindset. For a lot of folks, it would be very, very hard to be as "all-in" with the current administration and then at the same time step and back and say "wow, this COVID thing is very serious we need to listen to Drs and experts on what to do"

 

This results in behaviors from groups of people that are in the best interest of political parties, not necessarily the best interest of the community or the nation as a whole.

 

Meanwhile, I have taken quite well to my mask, it keeps my face warm, I dont need to worry about bad breath or food in my teeth and like has been mentioned above, social distances makes it easy for me to avoid lots of interactions that I generally want to stay away from.

[FVBrewerFan]

I think that's what the administration has done though, that's always been the message. They used to have a press conf every day, for weeks, stressing how serious it is and what people should do. At the same time, it's important to be positive, to strive for reopening. That's a tough needle to thread. Trump and Evers have both tried to thread that needle, albeit their style of communicating is let's jyst say a tad different.

[tmwiese55]

Basic science changes by the day. Now the CDC modified their position on airborne spread yet again. Spreading from bars is also not science, it's theory. Kids gather together at college anywhere, everywhere.

 

Equating herd mentality with flat earthers is not being intellectually honest. Borderline being unnecessarily argumentative. I won't post it again, but gighly tespected people at Stanford, Yale, and elsewhere have laid out the case for herd immunity. Nobody knows for sure what would work best.

 

No it doesn't. It's spread by close contact of humans and is slowed by reducing/limiting contact of humans, it's that simple. The airborne spread has been a thing since the beginning, I don't know how anyone can even argue it. Bars is a theory? It's people crammed close together in a close environment usually with poor ventilation, this is exactly the prime environment for it to spread. And yes there has been real world proof of it too. This is basic factual stuff and here we are still have to argue it for some reason. If you want to talk about unnecessarily argumentative this is it.

 

CDC has been corrupted by politics now, eliminate them from the convo. It will be crazy the stories we hear once those people are allowed to speak freely.

[JackNicholson1974]

yeah I was mostly just trying to illustrate that some folks are very dug in on their COVID positions.

[Machu Peach]

I don't really have a lot to add to this thread as I think it's become more about society and politics rather than virology and epidemiology and those are things that just don't interest me.

 

However, I feel like I need to mention that when I talk with infectious disease scientists and doctors they are far less declarative and certain about their statements than many people here and in the general public. It's interesting that MDs treating COVID patients and infectious disease experts are far more reserved and cautious in their commentary than those in the media and general public.

 

Additionally, I have never heard from any real scientist that national-level political fights were influencing their research (other than funding and whatnot). Maybe it happens are the director-level, but it's not a thing for the people actually doing research. ...or at least it something that I've never heard of and my previous research was so severely politicized that I and the rest of my team received anonymous death threats.

[FVBrewerFan]

I don't really have a lot to add to this thread as I think it's become more about society and politics rather than virology and epidemiology and those are things that just don't interest me.

 

However, I feel like I need to mention that when I talk with infectious disease scientists and doctors they are far less declarative and certain about their statements than many people here and in the general public. It's interesting that MDs treating COVID patients and infectious disease experts are far more reserved and cautious in their commentary than those in the media and general public.

 

Additionally, I have never heard from any real scientist that national-level political fights were influencing their research (other than funding and whatnot). Maybe it happens are the director-level, but it's not a thing for the people actually doing research. ...or at least it something that I've never heard of and my previous research was so severely politicized that I and the rest of my team received anonymous death threats.

 

Yea, it's frustrating to constantly hear "trust the experts" when there are no absolutes. But the media and politicians take bits and pieces and run with it. Then we hear not to listen to the WHO, now don't listen to CDC. Fauci is all over the map with contradictions. Don't take the vaccine when it's available. All of this is due to the death of journalism more than anything else.

[logan82]

Can't we all just agree that masks and keeping 6' or more from people outside the home should drastically limit the spread and gatherings of people are a bad idea right now? Herd immunity is probably needed but the only safe way to achieve that is though a vaccine.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Can't we all just agree that masks and keeping 6' or more from people outside the home should drastically limit the spread and gatherings of people are a bad idea right now? Herd immunity is probably needed but the only safe way to achieve that is though a vaccine.

 

You can do that though and still engage in a bunch of activities people are being judged for doing that are realistically probably less dangerous than getting groceries. Looking back at roped off playground equipment makes me laugh. Cancelling trick or treat, youth soccer? It just seems dumb and based in fear, not the reality of the situation. I'm just not too scared of Covid transmission through a Milky Way. Then when people do things and nothing happens, nobody ever has to answer for their overreaction. The parks in FL have been open since June now without an incident traced back to them. Which makes sense because the crowds are controlled, masks are required, and they are 98% outside. Seemed like the whole world was convinced K12 school couldn't possibly work either, and for the most part, it has. Because kids are highly adaptable. All the talk of them being scarred by masks and a "dystopian" environment was so hyperbolic. They don't care.

[PeaveyFury]

. Seemed like the whole world was convinced K12 school couldn't possibly work either, and for the most part, it has.

 

Really? For the most part, I'm only hearing stories of districts here in WI that are now going virtual or extending their virtual plans. Are there any in the state that are going the other way?

[TURBO]

Correct, it will continue to be mostly ignored outside of he cities. But keeping the order in place does give some backing to a business who does choose to follow/enforce it to be able to say "hey the government says it's the rule" so don't yell at me. And for that business to at least have their employees do it even if they don't want to fight with customers. And, it keeps it in place in the cities, which it seems to me have been doing ok throughout in keeping low numbers and not having our state be a problem state (exception being the bringing students back which was obviously going to spike numbers).

 

 

Kwik Trip chooses to ignore the mask mandate all together. They have big signs on their doors saying MASK REQUIRED to enter, but more than half of their customers do not wear a mask. I asked an employee why that was the case, she told me that employees are not allowed to say anything to the non mask wearing customers.

 

Granted, I stop in frequently between 6:30 and 7:30 am, and the majority of their customers at that time are blue collar working type young men who I am sure don't want the inconvenience of having to throw a mask on to stop in the store for their Monster/energy drinks, cigarettes, and chew. That and they are probably just giving a giant middle finger to being told what they have to do.

 

Again, I don't like wearing a mask, but it is for the greater good, so I do it.

 

It's irritating that so many ignore the mandate in such a close public place, but that is just how Kwik Trip rolls. Kwik Trip is Gutless.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

. Seemed like the whole world was convinced K12 school couldn't possibly work either, and for the most part, it has.

 

Really? For the most part, I'm only hearing stories of districts here in WI that are now going virtual or extending their virtual plans. Are there any in the state that are going the other way?

 

Ours hasn't changed anything. There have been single digit cases at the HS and MS but zero at all 3 elementary schools. Although the willingness to stay open seems to depend heavily on how red a county is. A nearby school (outside the county) closed for 3 days after multiple cases but I saw that and wondered what the heck does that do? 3 days?

[TURBO]

yeah I was mostly just trying to illustrate that some folks are very dug in on their COVID positions.

 

I'm a conservative, and for me, I have decided that mask wearing is a good thing. (it sucks to wear them, but it's for the greater good)

 

I know other conservatives that are like me, and have done the right thing, so for me, it isn't political at all.

 

I get what you and others are saying though, the fact that COVID is political just tells you where we are as a society, and it ain't good.

[PeaveyFury]

. Seemed like the whole world was convinced K12 school couldn't possibly work either, and for the most part, it has.

 

Really? For the most part, I'm only hearing stories of districts here in WI that are now going virtual or extending their virtual plans. Are there any in the state that are going the other way?

 

Ours hasn't changed anything. There have been single digit cases at the HS and MS but zero at all 3 elementary schools. Although the willingness to stay open seems to depend heavily on how red a county is. A nearby school (outside the county) closed for 3 days after multiple cases but I saw that and wondered what the heck does that do? 3 days?

 

I think it's dangerous to base conclusions regarding the success/failures of schools reopening on one district for the reasons you noted. I think we're all holding on a bit to see what this looks like when it gets colder and windows can't be opened, etc., but it seems like a lot of the schools around my area at least have gone from in-person to virtual just in the few weeks since school started back up. I don't think that's a good trend going into October and beyond.

[TURBO]

. Seemed like the whole world was convinced K12 school couldn't possibly work either, and for the most part, it has.

 

Really? For the most part, I'm only hearing stories of districts here in WI that are now going virtual or extending their virtual plans. Are there any in the state that are going the other way?

 

My district is fully open, in person, every day.

 

Students were given the choice to be virtual or in person. 11% chose virtual on day one. We are now up to 14% as some have decided to go virtual during this first trimester.

 

We have students going into quarantine at home daily. We have to check our list daily to see how this effects our classrooms. Usually because they have been exposed to a positive case, but the majority of them never test positive. We have had one teacher test positive since we started in August, and 1 had to stay home for 2 weeks because their spouse tested positive. We have had a handful of positive students, however, my guess is we've had a ton of them that walk around asymptomatic and never know they had it.

 

It's foolish to think being open is working when we all know damn well that the positive cases in school buildings are inaccurate based on that age range rarely getting symptoms. I would guess that in my high school, due to their complete lack of social distancing and mask wearing outside of the school building, I'd say we could have 50 kids walking the building daily that would test positive, maybe more. (we have 300+ kids in the high school)

 

We have been extremely lucky so far as neighboring districts have temporarily shut down and in some cases have gone full virtual.

 

I didn't expect to last more than 2 weeks, yet here we are in week 5 with the students in the building.

 

I still think we don't last the full year, but so far we are doing pretty well. (Don't get me started on the difference between now and NORMAL school though. The teacher's job is 10x more stressful than this time last year for a million of different reasons.)