Packer Offensive Roster Analysis: 2019 vs 2020

[CheezWizHed]

Back during the draft, there was obviously a lot of complaints about the state of the WR (and other) position and how we didn't address it. So I thought it would be interesting to see how we would go from person to person (2019 to 2020) with a presumed amount of performance compared to the previous year to really see if we really improved or not.

 

This chart shows my presumed starters for 2020 and the equivalent person last year in (parenthesis). Note that some times people moved up in the "role" so they don't replace themselves (i.e. Sullivan replacing Williams at Nickel CB). But I tried to slot in people where I'm guessing their approximate amount of snaps will be this year and rated what I think their increase or decrease in performance from the person doing that last year, which is often themselves.

 

[pre]Position Starter +/- Snaps Backup +/- Snaps Depth +/- Snaps Total

QB Aaron Rodgers 0% 95% Jordan Love 0% 5% 0%

(AR) (Boyle)

 

RB Aaron Jones -20% 60% Jamaal Williams -10% 30% AJ Dillon 10% 20% -13%

(Jones) (Williams) (Ervin/Carson)

 

FB Josiah Deguara 5% 25% N/A 0% 0% 1%

(Danny Vitale)

 

WR Davante Adams 0% 85% Devin Funchess 25% 50% EQ St. Brown 10% 10% 14%

(Adams) (Allison) (Kumerow)

 

WR Allen Lazard 25% 80% MVS 10% 20% Reggie Begelton 10% 0% 22%

(Lazard) (MVS) (Shepherd)

 

TE Jace Sternberger 0% 65% Marcedes Lewis 0% 45% Robert Tonyan 10% 20% 2%

(Graham) (Lewis) (Tonyan)

 

LT David Bakhtiari -10% 95% Alex Light 0% 5% Cody Conway 0% 0% -10%

(Bakhtiari) (Light)

 

LG Elgton Jenkins 10% 95% Jon Runyan 0% 5% 10%

(Jenkins) (Patrick)

 

C Corey Linsley 0% 85% Lucas Patrick 0% 15% Jake Hanson 0% 0% 0%

(Linsley) (Patrick)

 

RG Lane Taylor 5% 95% Billy Turner 5% 5% 5%

(Turner) (Madison)

 

RT Rick Wagner -30% 85% Alex Light 0% 5% Yosh Nijman 0% 0% -26%

(Bulaga) (Light/Veldheer)

Total 5% offensive improvement.

 

Yards TD Pts

2019 5812 44 376

2020* 6117 46 396[/pre]

 

With the predicted defense (298 points), that puts us at a record of 10.6 wins and 5.4 losses, which feels about right. Last year was a very "lucky" year with some of the wins.

 

My mindset:

QB: Rodgers is a year older, but second year on the system. Comes out about the same.

RB: Regression on Jones' and Williams' excellent years.

FB: I'm guessing Deguara is used a lot this year in the HB role.

WR: Predicting a bump up for Lazard and MVS but very reachable percentages. Similar for Funchess over Allison.

TE: Sternberger is still learning is about the same for Graham (though some big upside possible)

LT: Bakhtiari was incredible at the end of last year. I'm guessing some regression is possible.

LG: Jenkins' potential for a second year jump.

C: Linsley will be Linsley

RG: Lane Taylor steps in for Turner.

RT: Big step down from Bulaga to Wagner. With only Light as a T backup, there is a big open door for other backup Tackles. I'm a big Nijman fan.

[HiAndTight]

Back during the draft, there was obviously a lot of complaints about the state of the WR (and other) position and how we didn't address it. So I thought it would be interesting to see how we would go from person to person (2019 to 2020) with a presumed amount of performance compared to the previous year to really see if we really improved or not.

 

This chart shows my presumed starters for 2020 and the equivalent person last year in (parenthesis). Note that some times people moved up in the "role" so they don't replace themselves (i.e. Sullivan replacing Williams at Nickel CB). But I tried to slot in people where I'm guessing their approximate amount of snaps will be this year and rated what I think their increase or decrease in performance from the person doing that last year, which is often themselves.

 

[pre]Position Starter +/- Snaps Backup +/- Snaps Depth +/- Snaps Total

QB Aaron Rodgers 0% 95% Jordan Love 0% 5% 0%

(AR) (Boyle)

 

RB Aaron Jones -20% 60% Jamaal Williams -10% 30% AJ Dillon 10% 20% -13%

(Jones) (Williams) (Ervin/Carson)

 

FB Josiah Deguara 5% 25% N/A 0% 0% 1%

(Danny Vitale)

 

WR Davante Adams 0% 85% Devin Funchess 25% 50% EQ St. Brown 10% 10% 14%

(Adams) (Allison) (Kumerow)

 

WR Allen Lazard 25% 80% MVS 10% 20% Reggie Begelton 10% 0% 22%

(Lazard) (MVS) (Shepherd)

 

TE Jace Sternberger 0% 65% Marcedes Lewis 0% 45% Robert Tonyan 10% 20% 2%

(Graham) (Lewis) (Tonyan)

 

LT David Bakhtiari -10% 95% Alex Light 0% 5% Cody Conway 0% 0% -10%

(Bakhtiari) (Light)

 

LG Elgton Jenkins 10% 95% Jon Runyan 0% 5% 10%

(Jenkins) (Patrick)

 

C Corey Linsley 0% 85% Lucas Patrick 0% 15% Jake Hanson 0% 0% 0%

(Linsley) (Patrick)

 

RG Lane Taylor 5% 95% Billy Turner 5% 5% 5%

(Turner) (Madison)

 

RT Rick Wagner -30% 85% Alex Light 0% 5% Yosh Nijman 0% 0% -26%

(Bulaga) (Light/Veldheer)

Total 5% offensive improvement.

 

Yards TD Pts

2019 5812 44 376

2020* 6117 46 396[/pre]

 

With the predicted defense (298 points), that puts us at a record of 10.6 wins and 5.4 losses, which feels about right. Last year was a very "lucky" year with some of the wins.

 

My mindset:

QB: Rodgers is a year older, but second year on the system. Comes out about the same.

RB: Regression on Jones' and Williams' excellent years.

FB: I'm guessing Deguara is used a lot this year in the HB role.

WR: Predicting a bump up for Lazard and MVS but very reachable percentages. Similar for Funchess over Allison.

TE: Sternberger is still learning is about the same for Graham (though some big upside possible)

LT: Bakhtiari was incredible at the end of last year. I'm guessing some regression is possible.

LG: Jenkins' potential for a second year jump.

C: Linsley will be Linsley

RG: Lane Taylor steps in for Turner.

RT: Big step down from Bulaga to Wagner. With only Light as a T backup, there is a big open door for other backup Tackles. I'm a big Nijman fan.

 

Again...hard to argue with much of this. Wagner and Turner on the right side could create all kinda of problems vs a team like the Bears for example with Mack and Hicks on one side.

 

I know it's not the point of this thread, but Bulaga signed for such a reasonable contract, with an aging Rodgers, I just don't get not only NOT signing him, but then not using the money you didn't spend there on something else to help Rodgers. Particularly after all the reports about Gute wanting to add TWO premier pass catchers with Hooper being one.

 

 

But if they bring Veldheer back, I think he could start for us and is probably a better tackle than Wagner and we've got a young future All Pro IMO in Jenkins. Plus Turner and Wagner are both better run blocking. Also a big fan of Nijman, but most scouts that liked his upside thought he'd need a couple years learning. Definitely a good enough athlete though.

 

For this offense to get substantially better this year, you're going to need the backs to all contribute and then you're going to need at least ONE of the talented long shots in MVS, EST or Robert Tonyan to FINALLY step up and reach their potential.

 

Year 2 in this system has been great for Shanahan in ATL and SF and and in LA with the Golden Boy and Geoff, and we have a pissed off Rodgers, so hopefully he can have a bit of a bounce back season...which I get is a funny thing to say coming off a 13 win year, but Rodgers wasn't as sharp and missed a lot of open throws.

 

Like with the defense, I'm still hoping they can bring someone else in. Even a Kenny Stills who has a good chance to get cut in Houston could help.

 

 

I always try to be optimistic, but this looks like an 8-9 win team talent wise to me unless just about everything goes right and all the guys we're hoping break out...in fact break out.

But what the hell, Deguara's scouting report coming out of school was nearly identical to that of George Kittle's, so maybe he'll bust onto the scene with a 1200 yard season this year and become a dominant blocker, right???

[CheezWizHed]

I think signing Bulaga would've made it really difficult to sign our FAs next year. Plus, I love the guy, but he has been breaking down the last couple years. He is great when healthy, but I don't think they wanted to chance the $$ and health.

 

I think this year's FA was evident that they are saving money for next year's group, plus building up the comp picks for next year's draft.

 

For WR breakouts, my analysis shows more of a group improvement instead of an individual.

- Davante: 0% improvement: 83 catches, 997 yards - obviously upside left there as he did that in 12 games.

- Lazard: 25% improvement: 35/477 becomes 44/596

- Funchess: 25% over Allison: 34/287 becomes 43/359 (though probably more like 35 catches for 359 yards)

- MVS: 10% improvement: 26/452 becomes 29/497

- ESB: 10% over Kumerow: 12/219 becomes 13/241

 

I would say the most likely to really breakout (50%+ over previous) would be Lazard (60-70 catches) or ESB (40 catches). I guess MVS could hit 1000 yards on 40 catches...or he could be cut. I want to believe in the guy's speed, but something is missing.

[HiAndTight]

I think signing Bulaga would've made it really difficult to sign our FAs next year. Plus, I love the guy, but he has been breaking down the last couple years. He is great when healthy, but I don't think they wanted to chance the $$ and health.

 

I think this year's FA was evident that they are saving money for next year's group, plus building up the comp picks for next year's draft.

 

For WR breakouts, my analysis shows more of a group improvement instead of an individual.

- Davante: 0% improvement: 83 catches, 997 yards - obviously upside left there as he did that in 12 games.

- Lazard: 25% improvement: 35/477 becomes 44/596

- Funchess: 25% over Allison: 34/287 becomes 43/359 (though probably more like 35 catches for 359 yards)

- MVS: 10% improvement: 26/452 becomes 29/497

- ESB: 10% over Kumerow: 12/219 becomes 13/241

 

I would say the most likely to really breakout (50%+ over previous) would be Lazard (60-70 catches) or ESB (40 catches). I guess MVS could hit 1000 yards on 40 catches...or he could be cut. I want to believe in the guy's speed, but something is missing.

 

 

Lazard and MVS seem obvious. I'm still riding with Tonyan though. I think this might be his last year to get a chance to put it all together, but I like him and he seems to have really good body control and a nice catching radius. He's a very solid blocker, so he's not a Graham type receiver, but he's very athletic.

 

As for Bulaga, he started all 16 last year. Yeah, he left some early, but he is a pretty damn good tackle. And with the massive jump the Cap is expected to see next year or at least was at the time of that signing, I just believe he signed for too cheap for the Packers to save ~5 million the next couple years for a far, far worse player. But maybe they really think someone like Light or Yosh are closer than we think to being ready.

[LouisEly]

As for Bulaga, he started all 16 last year. Yeah, he left some early, but he is a pretty damn good tackle. And with the massive jump the Cap is expected to see next year or at least was at the time of that signing, I just believe he signed for too cheap for the Packers to save ~5 million the next couple years for a far, far worse player. But maybe they really think someone like Light or Yosh are closer than we think to being ready.

Bulaga may have started 16 games, but he only played 83.6% of offensive snaps so he missed the equivalent of 2.63 games. Plus, in 2018 he only played 72.7% of snaps and two seasons ago (2017) he missed 11 games and he's on the wrong side of 30. And, like others have said, I think would have been difficult for them to sign Bulaga, Clark, and Bakh.

 

I think your last sentence is correct, but for Nijman, not Light. They added Nijman to the active roster at the end of November, so they think highly of him. I think they want him to get one more year as a backup before trusting him to protect Rodgers, thus the signing of Wagner as a stopgap (while technically a 2-year deal, NFL FA contracts are usually for a year longer than they are intended to be for and I doubt he sees year two).

[brewcrewdue80]

Interesting take. My vision for the offense probably sees Sternberger being highlighted a lot like George Kittle is for SF. Fungess is an upgrade over Allison for sure on last season, and if he gets the confidence from Rodgers I really like the offense's upgrades over last year's. They still could have added a big time WR in the draft vs Love and 4th round pick. The belief that Wagner and Turner are better run blockers to pair with Bact and Jenkins with the added Deguara pick, I envision wearing down defenses with Lafleur's style. Sternberger/Lazard/Jones being 3rd down and distance possession targets. Adams/Funchess as the deeper threats.

 

The biggest hype I have is Jenkins in his 2nd year. He was a beast for the team as a rookie, and for me, I gotta wonder if he's the best OL potentially since I followed the Packers beginning in 1989. I seriously don't remember a guy who got down in the 2nd level run blocking like he was continually doing in games last year. An offseason for Bact to maybe work a little on his run blocking(now knowing the talent next to him to do so) and running game towards the left side can be such a huge weapon. Also, maybe the tandem will lead to more designed rollout plays to that side.

[CheezWizHed]

As for Bulaga, he started all 16 last year. Yeah, he left some early, but he is a pretty damn good tackle. And with the massive jump the Cap is expected to see next year or at least was at the time of that signing, I just believe he signed for too cheap for the Packers to save ~5 million the next couple years for a far, far worse player. But maybe they really think someone like Light or Yosh are closer than we think to being ready.

Bulaga may have started 16 games, but he only played 83.6% of offensive snaps so he missed the equivalent of 2.63 games. Plus, in 2018 he only played 72.7% of snaps and two seasons ago (2017) he missed 11 games and he's on the wrong side of 30. And, like others have said, I think would have been difficult for them to sign Bulaga, Clark, and Bakh.

 

I think your last sentence is correct, but for Nijman, not Light. They added Nijman to the active roster at the end of November, so they think highly of him. I think they want him to get one more year as a backup before trusting him to protect Rodgers, thus the signing of Wagner as a stopgap (while technically a 2-year deal, NFL FA contracts are usually for a year longer than they are intended to be for and I doubt he sees year two).

 

I should note that the snap percentages listed are based on what the previous player did last year (rounded to the nearest 5%). So yes, Bulaga did miss some time last year, hence Wagner at 85%.

 

I think Light has some potential. I don't think he will be a starting RT, but an OK backup. I've heard some rumors about trying him at guard, a la Mike Wahle. We seem to have good success at finding guards from tackles. And I'm not sold on Turner. The end of the year, he didn't look like he could block for pass nor run...

[HiAndTight]

Interesting take. My vision for the offense probably sees Sternberger being highlighted a lot like George Kittle is for SF. Fungess is an upgrade over Allison for sure on last season, and if he gets the confidence from Rodgers I really like the offense's upgrades over last year's. They still could have added a big time WR in the draft vs Love and 4th round pick. The belief that Wagner and Turner are better run blockers to pair with Bact and Jenkins with the added Deguara pick, I envision wearing down defenses with Lafleur's style. Sternberger/Lazard/Jones being 3rd down and distance possession targets. Adams/Funchess as the deeper threats.

 

The biggest hype I have is Jenkins in his 2nd year. He was a beast for the team as a rookie, and for me, I gotta wonder if he's the best OL potentially since I followed the Packers beginning in 1989. I seriously don't remember a guy who got down in the 2nd level run blocking like he was continually doing in games last year. An offseason for Bact to maybe work a little on his run blocking(now knowing the talent next to him to do so) and running game towards the left side can be such a huge weapon. Also, maybe the tandem will lead to more designed rollout plays to that side.

 

Yeah, you're definitely right about Jenkins. That was a head scratcher for me at the time. Picking a Center with the 44th pick...but he looked like a future All Pro in his rookie year. And if you're talking about the best OL regardless of position value, you may be right. Doubtful he ends up as valuable as Clifton, Bulaga or Bahk, but he was a stud as a rookie and no reason to think that won't continue.

[HiAndTight]

As for Bulaga, he started all 16 last year. Yeah, he left some early, but he is a pretty damn good tackle. And with the massive jump the Cap is expected to see next year or at least was at the time of that signing, I just believe he signed for too cheap for the Packers to save ~5 million the next couple years for a far, far worse player. But maybe they really think someone like Light or Yosh are closer than we think to being ready.

Bulaga may have started 16 games, but he only played 83.6% of offensive snaps so he missed the equivalent of 2.63 games. Plus, in 2018 he only played 72.7% of snaps and two seasons ago (2017) he missed 11 games and he's on the wrong side of 30. And, like others have said, I think would have been difficult for them to sign Bulaga, Clark, and Bakh.

 

I think your last sentence is correct, but for Nijman, not Light. They added Nijman to the active roster at the end of November, so they think highly of him. I think they want him to get one more year as a backup before trusting him to protect Rodgers, thus the signing of Wagner as a stopgap (while technically a 2-year deal, NFL FA contracts are usually for a year longer than they are intended to be for and I doubt he sees year two).

 

 

Yeah, I get that he missed time. And when he did, our offense looked entirely different. But again, he signed for a very reasonable price. It's really just a matter of having an older QB, Bulaga still playing at or near an elite level despite missing some time and having a QB entering his late 30's. The impact on the cap will be less now that it looks like the NFL is going to lose revenue...so that ~30-40 million dollar jump that was projected is going to seriously be dampened, but if you're trying to win now...that's the move of the off-season I don't get and I won't get.

You really think Love is great, ok, you have to get him. But you let one of the best pass blocking tackles in the NFL walk, you don't spend that money on WR'ers and then you pick Love?

 

If Rodgers gets beat up this year, Gute's going to be under a helluva lot more fire than he is even now. Teams seldom let tackles like that leave.

[CheezWizHed]

Teams seldom let tackles like that leave.

 

Actually, there are a lot of very good 30+ year old tackles that leave their original team. Trent Williams is one. Wagner (maybe not as good today, but a similar a few years back). Veldheer is probably a pretty decent comp to Bulaga. He had a few big injuries early in his career, then started having more nagging injuries/performance for his age 30/31 seasons (played 80% and 66% of the snaps).

 

Once you get into that 30+ age nexus, you have to pick and choose carefully whom you keep. It isn't so much about the cost as it is the chance that you pay that much money to someone on the injured list.

[HiAndTight]

Teams seldom let tackles like that leave.

 

Actually, there are a lot of very good 30+ year old tackles that leave their original team. Trent Williams is one. Wagner (maybe not as good today, but a similar a few years back). Veldheer is probably a pretty decent comp to Bulaga. He had a few big injuries early in his career, then started having more nagging injuries/performance for his age 30/31 seasons (played 80% and 66% of the snaps).

 

Once you get into that 30+ age nexus, you have to pick and choose carefully whom you keep. It isn't so much about the cost as it is the chance that you pay that much money to someone on the injured list.

 

 

Really? Trent Williams had to hold out for an entire year before the Redskins finally gave in agreed to let him leave. He's pretty much the perfect example of the exception that proves the rule. The way they tried to get him to come back, despite the disaster of a medical staff that let a cancerous tumor grow on his head for...however long it was. Whatever it was, it's hardly the norm.

And Wagner REALLY isn't on Bulaga's level nor is Veldheer, a nice tackle, but he's never been as good as Bulaga has either.

[CheezWizHed]

Fair point about Williams.

 

Veldheer was pretty comparable with Bulaga at the same ages. That very good, but not Pro Bowl level OT. Which is kind of the point... he has dropped off quite a bit in his 30s.

 

Mark Tauscher's last full season was his age 30 year. 13 games at 31 and then 8 and 4 the next two years.

Clifton held out well until 34, but had few injury issues early in his career (rotten Sapp).

 

My point is simply that the third contract for a 30+ yo is a bit of a gamble. Unless you are a QB or a very special player, it rarely works out. I loved Bulaga and hate to see him go. I just don't think he is a good risk given his injury history.

[HiAndTight]

Fair point about Williams.

 

Veldheer was pretty comparable with Bulaga at the same ages. That very good, but not Pro Bowl level OT. Which is kind of the point... he has dropped off quite a bit in his 30s.

 

Mark Tauscher's last full season was his age 30 year. 13 games at 31 and then 8 and 4 the next two years.

Clifton held out well until 34, but had few injury issues early in his career (rotten Sapp).

 

My point is simply that the third contract for a 30+ yo is a bit of a gamble. Unless you are a QB or a very special player, it rarely works out. I loved Bulaga and hate to see him go. I just don't think he is a good risk given his injury history.

 

 

Yeah, I agree it's risky, but you're going to be paying Wagner 11 over 2 years and he's missed more time the past few years and he was awful last year.

 

And while Bulaga hasn't been named to any Pro-Bowl's, I think that's a little mis-leading. You know how poorly represented the OL usually is at the Pro-Bowl. Other than the elite LT's, it's usually not that indicative of the most deserving players. All that said, the only reason I'm taking the risk is just because of Rodgers. We've seen how bad this offense looks when we've had to play without Bulaga save for when Veldheer came in last year and he only came back reluctantly. So if Wagner is as bad as he was last year, that right side is going to be in a lot of trouble. Now not only did you not go out and get Rodgers the weapons via the draft or Free Agency, but you made the offense worse. I guess I just don't understand...they said they wanted to keep him. They couldn't have expected he was going to get less than he got in LA. Maybe he expected more from the Packers for his time here? I don't know. It's going to be very interesting to see what they do with Bahktiari in another year. Hell, it'd be a good idea to try and work out a deal with him NOW if not for the uncertainty surrounding Covid.

 

Anyway...it's over and done with now...so hopefully Wagner can bounce back with his return to Wisconsin. I don't expect the Packers to be 13-3 again, but I just don't want to see things end badly with Rodgers(and as much as I like Love, it feels like things could go that way pretty easily).

[CheezWizHed]

I can't say that I'm happy with only Wagner as the only option at RT right now. Here's hoping one of the youngins picks up and is a viable backup and/or competition for Wagner. Still hoping Veldheer comes back or is willing to come back anyway if things go south.

[HiAndTight]

I can't say that I'm happy with only Wagner as the only option at RT right now. Here's hoping one of the youngins picks up and is a viable backup and/or competition for Wagner. Still hoping Veldheer comes back or is willing to come back anyway if things go south.

 

I'm definitely hoping Veldheer comes back...though I would guess he'd have cost as much or more than Wagner. I'd have to think there would be a lot of teams interested in him and the demand will only go up when a couple guys go down with injury.

 

It's a bad time for Nijman to be missing off-season work as he seems to have all the athletic ability you would want in a LT. He could conceivably play RT for a while and then move to LT if things went well(though I do hope they keep Bahk through another contract).

[HiAndTight]

Sounds like Turner is going to open the season as our starting RT.

 

That'll mean Bahk/Jenkins/Linsley/Taylor and Turner at RT. That should be one of our best run-blocking OL's in a long time, but damn...I think Mercedes Lewis is going to be a glorified tackle much of this season though as Turner is an awful pass blocker at guard and even worse outside at tackle.

 

 

Other stories from camp;

 

MVS and Tonyan both apparently have been good. Both were slowed last year due to injury. But MVS is now in year 3 and that's when a lot of WR'ers really blow up. He has all the physical tools in the world, so it'd be REALLY nice if he could develop into a real #2 WR'er who was a big play threat but also more consistant across the board. Then Lazzard as your #3 is that much more effective. I haven't heard really anything positive about EQ, so if someone else has, I'd love to hear it.

 

 

Lane Taylor has been unbeaten in one on one going 14-0. Turner has been close at 14-2 according to ESPN...so not sure if he's improved or that those just aren't that telling, but by all accounts, he's been much better.

 

And...I know we hear about young guys doing well all the time, so take this with an extra grain of salt, but that Rodgers kid went 25-28 in a live session against the #1 defense. It's a bit early to say if he's got the ability to be able to translate that to the regular season, but we'll see.

 

Seriously though at QB, it also sounds like Tim Boyle has been really impressive. I'm feeling pretty confident that they roll with 3 QB's this year as it sounds like Love is really raw and has been erratic thus far. Don't mind Love just running the scout team and being the #3 this year at all. In fact, I hope they're real patient with him...and barring injury, they give him the 3 full years they gave Rodgers.

 

I was a little fatalistic about the Packers heading into this season, but if the reports about some young players really stepping up...Gary, Savage, Martin on D, MVS, Tonyan on offense and then the whole unit just being much more in sync and Rodgers having a much better understanding of the system....thereby giving him more freedom, I think this team is capable of winning 11 games and being in the hunt. They SHOULD win the North given how the Vikings defense has been decimated due to their big new addition Pierce opting out and the fact that they lost several players.

 

Biggest threat IMO comes from the Bears. They just need Trubisky to be solid for them and that Defense has a chance to be elite again this year. We shall see!

[CheezWizHed]

I'd put money down that Taylor will be our starting RG at this point. But if Turner is our starting RT, I'm hoping he is better than the turnstile effort he put at RG pass blocking last year. Wagner has been injured (his main problem) but I wouldn't count him out either. I wonder if they would consider swapping the two out on obvious running/passing downs. Somehow, I think Veldheer still would've been a better all-around option than either of Wagner/Turner.