Hardy vs. Hall

[treego]

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treego, how do you know everyone here isn't black?

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I don't ... my question regarding racial motivation possibilities earlier apply to those to who I was speaking to, nonetheless --- if it doesn't apply to you because you are non-white or because you have logical and just defense of starting Hardy at SS, then you are clear of any such motivations that might be prejudicing your take on the whole matter. I think it is fairly reasonable to guess that the majority of posters here are of Hardy's race than that of Hall's, that said. I have no problem with people choosing one over the other based upon merit. I just find unmerited favor being hoisted in Hardy's direction while Hall has done everything this season that can possibly be imagined to earn the starting nod at SS.

 

I will treego away for awhile now. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[treego]

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I didn't say keep him out of the starting lineup, I said move him around the diamond, since he has the athletisim to do that, where as the rest of our players don't. Don't anchor him to one position.

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That is not a compromise I'm willing to make, myself, though. I think Hall should be the starting SS because of his sheer athletic advantages and demonstrated skills that go along with that athleticism at what is easily the most important/busy position on the infield. I'm an idealist, I suppose. You don't think Hardy could back up at 3B or 2B, periodically? If not, why not? Let Hardy pick up the scraps while the just-earned guy starts at the busiest position on the infield. That's my take.

 

Should be an interesting season next season, though. I am encouraged by Hardy's at-bats the past few months. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[pogokat]

Here's the whole argument from me made simple:

 

I think JJ could have a .370 obp for an entire season while only striking out 65 times...I'm positive that Billy Hall could not do that..

 

that's why i want JJ over billy at SS

 

however...i think Billy is great...and i'm stoked to see him playing so well this year...i hope he can continue to play this way and stick with the brewers for years to come...

 

i like him as a super sub...i've never understood why people make such a big deal about a guy playing lots of positions...i mean the dudes gonna get 500 ab's this year...i'm sure he'll get close to that many next year...so why does it matter what position he plays?

[strawbossisevil]

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That is not a compromise I'm willing to make, myself, though. I think Hall should be the starting SS because of his sheer athletic advantages and demonstrated skills that go along with that athleticism at what is easily the most important/busy position on the infield. I'm an idealist, I suppose. You don't think Hardy could back up at 3B or 2B, periodically? If not, why not?

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It's a compromise I'd be willing to make since I have the team, and not the individual in mind. It is best for the team that Bill Hall, who has proven that he has been able to play three positions quite well (possibly OF as well, with a bit more practice in Spring Training) move around because he has the most athletism and has proven to be adequate at doing so. As to why not Hardy? One, he hasn't played any position but SS from the minors on, you can't just stick a guy somewhere and expect him to do an adequate job, this isn't MLB 2005 or whatever videogame you love to play, this is real life. I think we can both agree that Bill Hall is more athletic and is able to handle the position switches at a higher degree of sucess. I could easily see him getting half (or more than half) of the starts at 3rd, and giving a breather to Hardy, Weeks (and possibly some of the OFs) on occasion. That would probably have him in the lineup as much as anyone. I really don't see the reason to tie him to a position where we have another possible "rising star". Why not have both in the lineup?

 

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i like him as a super sub...i've never understood why people make such a big deal about a guy playing lots of positions...i mean the dudes gonna get 500 ab's this year...i'm sure he'll get close to that many next year...so why does it matter what position he plays?

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Exactly, whatever role helps the team the most.

[treego]

It takes less athleticism to play 2B or 3B, so Hardy should be able to make the adjustment to either of those positions capably I would think (by the way, I don't play video games).

 

I want what is best for the Brewers, also.

 

If you think Hall is the best athlete, I don't understand the aversion to having your best athlete play the most difficult position on the infield which requires the most play attempts and range.

 

I understand that Hardy is a natural SS, but so WAS Hall when he was coming out of the minors.

[treego]

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I think JJ could have a .370 obp for an entire season while only striking out 65 times...I'm positive that Billy Hall could not do that.. That's why I want Hardy at SS

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I'm positive that Hall has better range than Hardy.

 

I'm sure that Hall can slug at an average easily 100 points higher than Hardy.

 

I'm sure that Hall can steal 20-25 or more bases than can Hardy.

 

I'm sure that Hall can have a better batting average than Hardy and a very similar, if not better, OBP than Hardy, also.

 

That's why I want Hall at starting SS. Let Hardy find his way at other positions or as a backup to Hall. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[ja002h]

This just makes zero sense. Let's take Hall, who plays other positions, and put him at short. Then, move JJ, who hasn't played anything else in his life, to 2b? The difference in range is not going to make a huge difference over the course of the year. You're making things harder than they need to be.

 

Besides, this is all happening in fantasyland. JJ Hardy IS the Brewers SS, regardless of what you'd like to see happen.

[CutWesHelmsPlease]

Wow, heated stuff here. Ultimately, Both Bill Hall and JJ Hardy are both in the Brewers' plans for next season and who really cares about range? The Brewers have two shortstops with sick offensive potential. How many teams have a "utility" player who is hitting .290 with 17 home runs? And Hardy has .300 avg, 20 home run, 75 rbi potential too and he never strikes out.

[huntsvillefan]

Leave JJ at SS, give Bill Hall the permanent 2B slot putting your two best defensive infielders in the premium defensive spots. Move Weeks to 3B where he'll do less damage and actually has the potential, both offensively and defensively, to be very good. When Braun is ready in a few years time you can consider who you want to move to OF.

[Brian the Automator]

[ Move Weeks to 3B where he'll do less damage and actually has the potential, both offensively and defensively, to be very good. ]

 

See, I actually think Weeks might be _worse_ at 3B, as to me it looks like his instincts are his problem... You need a much quicker reaction time at 3B, and I think Hall excels there (plus his arm is very strong).

 

I'd like to see Hall (and some Branyan) at 3B, sticking with Weeks at 2B, and move Weeks to CF if Clark becomes expensive or bad, and shift Hall to 2B when Braun comes up (or deal Hall if he becomes expensive or bad).

 

Or, I could be wrong about Rickie's instincts and it might just be a footwork issue... can anyone else chime in with an opinion?

[ja002h]

He can't even get the ball to 1st from 2b, what will 3b look like?

[Brian the Automator]

[ He can't even get the ball to 1st from 2b, what will 3b look like? ]

 

http://www.islandsstainedglass.com/run%20sideways%20large.JPG

[rluzinski]

Some good statistical analysis here. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/sick.gif

[strawbossisevil]

If he is going to get the same amount of at bats whether he is the starting SS or not, why tie him down to that position, when we have another very solid up-and-coming SS already at that position. It works out for both of them to keep things the way they are. Hardy gets his at bats, Hall gets his and both of them get the opportunity to help the team win. Why block a good player A, with good player B when good player B is capable of playing other positions? That is what makes no sense to me.

 

Oh wait, its because he "deserves" a position of his own, I forgot http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif .

[backup catchers]

I moved this from the major league thread. I thought it would be fair to compare them at the same age/level of development. I did this two ways. One was to compare them at the same age. The other the first full year in the majors.

 

JJ's numbers are the same for both. This year at age 23.

241/324/369 ops 693. He has 352 ab's and 47k to 43 bb.

 

Bill Hall at 23. 276/323/421 with a 744 ops. 107 k's to 34 bb.

It should be noted he had 354 ab's in AAA and 142 at the majors.

Bill in first full year at the majors. Age 24. 238/276/374 ops of 650. 119 k's to 20 bb in 390 ab's. This is the one that really interested me because they have almost the same amount of ab's with no excuses.

 

JJ played far better defense until this year as well but Bill is a better base stealer by far. This is no slam on Hall. I am very happy, as are all Brewer fans, with his play this year. It just seems to me anyone that would argue Bill Hall should be the shortstop ahead of Hardy based solely on this years performance should take a step back and wonder how much better JJ will be at age 25 since he is certainly a better player for his age and service time than Hall.

[BillScottCanRake]

I didn't read the whole thread, because there were posts in there that made me want to skip to the end. Sorry if this has already been covered...

 

- If one accepts that Hall's defense is superior to Hardy's, is it so much better that it should take Hardy's bat out of the lineup?

 

If Hall continues to hit as he has (or gets better), and if JJ hits as he has during the second half of the season (or gets better), isn't this team better off with both of their bats in the lineup?

 

If that's the case, that can only realistically happen next year if JJ continues to play SS, and Hall moves to third. That doesn't mean that Hall isn't a better SS, it simply means the team is better off with both players in the lineup.

 

 

- Does Hall have to play SS in 2006 to be the SS of the future?

 

I don't think he does. If Hall has a breakout year (900+ OPS, 70 walks) and Hardy has a good year (800 OPS), Milwaukee could well decide they want Hall to be the everyday SS in 2007.

 

If that goes down, Hardy has way more trade value as a 24 year old SS with an 800 OPS than a 24 year old backup SS with 200 ABs.

 

 

I'll be the first to admit that Hall has gone a long way in proving to me he's a potential star. He is only 25, he's shown much better plate discipline (relative to his earlier years), he's got great middle IF power and he's good base runner who's got good speed. I think there is a pretty decent chance that he'll continue to get better, and we might just have that 900 OPS guy we've been looking for to bolster Milwaukee's lineup.

 

At the same time, we don't know that he'll continue to improve. If he does regress to his 2004 numbers, a good case can be made that JJ would be a better offensive option at SS and that Hall is better suited to the utility role.

 

So why not let both of them play together as long as possible and let this thing work itself out naturally, instead of trying to force a decision?

[BrewCityUnit]

Excellent post, let this play out. Keep both and just continue doing what they are doing.

[huntsvillefan]

To be honest, I'm not convinced that Rickie can play 3B either, it was more I wondered why those in favor of moving JJ for defensive reasons (that was how the thread started) are so happy to give Rickie a free pass. I see as much point sitting him on the bench for a better 2B as I do sitting JJ for a better SS at the minute - perhaps more.

From a Brewer's viewpoint I tend to agree that as long as Hall gets the equivalent AB's of a starter, the most important thing is that he plays whichever position they need him in most on any given day.

But I do think that Hall is getting a slightly rough deal, had he been the starting SS all year, he'd be getting recognition as one of the NL's premier shortstops by now.

[brewizard]

**But I do think that Hall is getting a slightly rough deal, had he been the starting SS all year, he'd be getting recognition as one of the NL's premier shortstops by now.**

 

 

I say MAYBE. Perhaps Hall would get sloppy if he was all alone in the SS slot. Perhaps it is precisely the competition between Hall and Hardy that has raised Hall's game to such a notable degree. Hall himself regularly compliments JJ's defense and soft hands.

 

That said, Hardy took his own lumps and seems to have worked through them this year as well. I get the feeling that Hardy will improve offensively and defensively next year as he grows into himself and into the league. He just turned 23 for crying out loud.

 

They're BOTH great for this team right now. I'd be sad if either one didn't spend 2006 in a Brewers uniform.