Hardy vs. Hall

[treego]

HTML Comments are not allowed

 

OFF-TOPIC: Why is this comment popping up when I'm posting. I'm not entering any HTML code here ... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

 

It seems that this forum doesn't like the "greater than" symbol --- that is why I was getting this message. I don't know why the "greater than" symbol is characterized as "HTML Comments," though.

[huntsvillefan]

It is so illogical to me that I cannot help but wonder about the racial component to this

 

Wow! If you don't follow my line of logic you must be suspected of being a racist.

Why not make it a fascist or a communist or any other label that comes to mind. Indulge yourself, go for the trifecta and make it all 3!

Usually when accusations like this are made some slight smidgeon of proof is required, but hey why ruin a good slur for want of any evidence.

Nevermind, I'm pretty certain that most of the people who post against Branyan here are probably in the NAACP and want the 3B job for Hall.

And all of us who want him to keep playing Rickie, despite the fact that he plays 2B like an elephant playing the piano. WE just want to keep that white guy Steve Scarborough from getting a call up!

I actually agree with certain of the core elements of what you are saying about the relative baseball merits of Hall & Hardy this year, but your total inability to even see that others might have a valid viewpoint, makes it a lot more likely that you are indeed the bigot here rather than them.

[treego]

Quote:

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Wow! If you don't follow my line of logic you must be suspected of being a racist. Why not make it a fascist or a communist or any other label that comes to mind. Indulge yourself, go for the trifecta and make it all 3! Usually when accusations like this are made some slight smidgeon of proof is required, but hey why ruin a good slur for want of any evidence. But hey I'm pretty certain that most of the people who post against Branyan here are probably in the NAACP and want the 3B job for Hall. And all of us who want him to keep playing Rickie, despite the fact that he plays 2B like an elephant playing the piano. WE just want to keep that white guy Steve Scarborough from getting a call up! I actually agree with certain of the core elements of what you are saying about the relative baseball merits of Hall & Hardy this year, but your total inability to even see that others might have a valid viewpoint, makes it a lot more likely that you are indeed the bigot here rather than the other posters.

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Wow! That was a mouthful. I'm being kind. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif I have been careful not to label any single individual here as being racist. But when the data clearly shows Hall having a much better season and displaying power, speed, and range that Hardy has failed to demonstrate having, I think the question of any racial motivation is valid. You may say, "How dare I?" in asking such a question. We are too "stuffed-shirted" to ask these questions, it seems. If you have no racial motivations, then simply say, "I've searched my heart, and I simply think Hardy is the better player for reason X or reason Y --- it has nothing to do with race." And be done with it. There is no need for you to sling all this other stuff about Communism, etc. which is totally unrelated to Hardy vs. Hall at SS.

 

I have been so underwhelmed by the evidence for why people defend Hardy as the starting SS over Hall, the question came to mind, and that is why I asked.

 

Take it easy. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gifhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif

 

P.S. No comments on my seasonal breakdown of stats and the appropriate pictures I just posted?

[huntsvillefan]

This post has been deleted on the grounds that the author wasn't in his right mind when he posted it.

[Brian the Automator]

[ I have been so underwhelmed by the evidence for why people defend Hardy as the starting SS over Hall, the question came to mind, and that is why I asked. ]

 

If many people have given you evidence, and you say you've been underwhelmed by the evidence, then it's probably time to drop the subject, as we're well past the point of spinning our wheels. There's nothing anyone's going to do to change your mind, and vice versa.

 

There's nothing I dislike much more than beating a dead horse, and the horse and the club are all lined up.

[ChrisW42660]

I really enjoyed reading this thread until the race card popped up. It hadn't even crossed my mind that anybody was being racist. I think Hardy is better too, and I don't care if he's green, pink, purple or blue...ditto for Hall. I just want the best team we can get. I like Hall, but trust JJ far more both at the plate and in the field. Maybe Hall to third and keep him there? When he's hot, his bat is very valuable as we saw last night.

 

I think we ought to cut the racist garbage. JMHO

[Mass Haas]

Whew, if ever a thread proved that those silly emoticon in the subject thingy's was unnecessary, it's this one.

 

Enough angry red faces, anyone?

[Getpaddled]

after spending the last 20min reading everyones post. I would love to be the man and say who is right and wrong about things. But I am tired now, so Ill just be The Man. lets look at potential here. If J.J played at his full potential and Hall played at his full potential. who would the starter be? I am guessing that hall is closer to his full potential then J.J's, But J.J's potential is higher than Halls. Can you measure exspected potential? This is whats running in my head.

[giffted1]

While constantly pounding their same opinion over and over some peole must have passed up the overall message of this thread.

 

Stats Dont Mean Everything.

 

But if you want to play the stat game.... Who has been the more productive shortstop since the All-Star Break? I'll answer my own question. JJ Hardy

 

I have been extremely impressed with JJ's performance. I'll admit that he had a horrible first half. But to turn it around and out produce Bill Hall in the second half is impressive. The fact that he has done this shows that he has a higher ceiling than Mr. Hall and warrants taking a few lumps with him so we can be better in the future.

[Jacob008]

Range factor might be the worst stat in baseball.

 

It tells you how many outs a player makes per game. It tells us that Troy Glaus is the second best 3b in baseball and Alex Rodriguez is the 3rd worst. It tells us that Jimmy Rollins in the second worst SS. And here's a nail in the coffin at the funeral of Range Factor. Juan Pierre has the worst range of all CFs in baseball.

 

It's an interesting discussion... Is Hardy or Hall the better defensive shortstop... but Range Factor tells you absolutely nothing either way.

 

I wrote a lot more about this same conversation six weeks ago here: http://www.brewcrewball.com/story/2005/8/8/211620/8847

 

So I'll stop for now.

[Pack87Man]

Honest question, but how much do our weird shifts play with defensive stats? For something like Zone Rating, would JJ ranging over to where the 2B normally plays to get a ground ball because Weeks is in short right field mess around with it?

[1992casey]

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HTML Comments are not allowed

 

OFF-TOPIC: Why is this comment popping up when I'm posting. I'm not entering any HTML code here ...

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This is what an HTML comment looks like.

 

What you're trying to type apparently looks too much like one. It's an ezBoard thing that Brain can't do anything about, much like Apple.ton being a 'naughty' word, because it contains 'apple.t'.

 

You can get your effect with em dashes (?>, ??>) or en dashes (?>, ??>).

[1992casey]

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Honest question, but how much do our weird shifts play with defensive stats? For something like Zone Rating, would JJ ranging over to where the 2B normally plays to get a ground ball because Weeks is in short right field mess around with it?

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From what I've read, I believe a player is penalized even if his coaches position him nowhere near a zone he's 'supposed' to be covering. I don't know if a player gets 'extra credit' for getting to balls outside his assigned zones.

[UndraftedFA]

Alll I have to say is good for Bill Hall showing his potential. He's in his 3rd season I believe already. It takes time for guys to get there sometimes. JJ is already showing great signs from the May 23rd date that Casey points out in His rookie season. I'm not down on Hall at all. I believe he has a lot of value to the team, but I think as others mention players need to take their lumps at some point. Would JJ be where he's at now if he started in AAA? I don't know. Rickie destroyed AAA, but now takes some lumps at the big leagues. I think for JJ's gain and the team's future gain they did everything exactly right. I don't think Having Hall over Hardy at SS would have won that many more games for the team. Maybe at the end of the year it's a difference of a winning season or not(couple of games), but definitely not enough where we would be purchasing playoff tickets. Along the way we have JJ getting up to speed with minimal loss.

[ja002h]

treego, how do you know everyone here isn't black?

[bball123h2]

I didn't realize that race was a part of the range factor equation... No wonder my range factor is so small.

[istanbultaye]

well, the faster you can 'race' the higher your range factor 'ought' to be :D, other than that i don't see how it affects anything at all

[wisportswriter]

Isn't this a simple matter of the Brewers going with the kid they feel will best help them over the long haul, all stats be darned?

 

BTW, Dogs w/Bees had the best post in this mega-thread. Go back and look for it if you didn't catch it.

 

(edited for new subject line)

[Blue584ever]

Maybe Hall hasn't gotten a fair shake to be a starter because up until this year he sucked. I'm glad he has improved in both offense and defense, and he has been rewarded with extra at-bats and starts because of this. To be honest, before this year I'm not sure he was going to be a part of next year's team, but now I expect he is.

 

As a side note, I do not see any evidence of this thread being racist, but if I see people asking for Hall to be replaced by Durrington at third.....

[treego]

Is Bill Hall swaying anybody's opinion this past week, possibly? My goodness! This guy is white-hot!http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

 

How about that defensive gem at the end of another 4-for-4 performance tonight, also! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[strawbossisevil]

Yeah because we should make all judgements about a player on a week long hotstreak. He's a solid player, we all agree with you on that. If Hardy went 4-4 tonight I seriously doubt that I'd see you on here writing about it. Why? Because you have a personal vendetta against him as has become very clear in this thread. That said, I think Hall is a very very valuable player for next year, because he can play a half dozen different positions and do it at a high level. I think that because of this athletism its probably best that he is in the role that he is in. If he was the starting shortstop, we wouldn't have someone to fill in at the other positions whenever a break is needed or a pitching matchup is infavorable. J.J. Hardy couldn't do that, Weeks couldn't do that, Branyan couldn't do that...for that reason I think our team is best with him changing positions instead of playing only one.

[treego]

Hall has been on a tear for more than a week ... check the season totals ... every bit as good as Carlos Lee's, I think.

 

5 hit game, 4 hit game, 4 hit game ... just 1 of the 4 needed hits for a cycle twice very recently, also ... the guy is just a ball-masher ...

 

I don't have a vendetta against anybody if they are not touted as being worthy of keeping Hall on the bench! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/happy.gif

[strawbossisevil]

Did you read the rest of my thread? I was complimenting the guy on his season and where I thought he best fit. But no, you read the first two lines and stopped because Bill Hall is god and all of us must worship him.

 

(400 posts, yipeeeeeeee)

[treego]

Sorry ... I think you didn't read my full post, then, or you are simply misunderstanding me. Peace! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/glasses.gif

 

Who is worthy of keeping Hall out of the starting lineup? Anybody?

[strawbossisevil]

I didn't say keep him out of the starting lineup, I said move him around the diamond, since he has the athletisim to do that, where as the rest of our players don't. Don't anchor him to one position.