The Next Numbers To Be Retired...

[pacopete4]

Craig Counsell. First manager up on the ceiling of AmFam.

[jerichoholicninja]

Brewers social media shared a graphic that showed Counsell will most likely reach the second most wins in team history whenever the next season is and become he franchise leader the year after that. He's had great seasons but that's pretty pathetic that he'll be that high up in such short order.

[Warning Track Power]

I'll be surprised, but not shocked, if it isn't retired. I mean, if Fingers number is retired.....

 

Was Rollie involved in multiple PED scandals that I'm unaware of? I'll be absolutely shocked if Braun's number is retired.

Dude get over it. He made the mistake. It stinks. Instead of focusing on a mistake from almost a decade ago, pay more attention to Ryan Braun’s philanthropic efforts in California Strong and the money he is donating to COVID-19 response.

 

Braun’s number should absolutely be retired. He’ll likely have over 2,000 hits and over 350 HR, the franchise leader, when he retires.

[PeaveyFury]

Dude get over it.

 

I'm over it just fine, thanks. But the question was who will have their number retired next. My response is that every single player who has their number retired by the Brewers is in the Hall of Fame. Braun has a 0.00% chance of making the Hall of Fame, and the above is why. Hence, I think it'd be shocking if his number gets retired.

 

I could see them doing an unofficial 'retiring' like they did for Gantner, though.

[Outlander]

To most it wouldn't be shocking, Gantner was here a long time but rather average while Braun was a superstar and MVP during his time. I would say there is a chance it isn't retired but more likely it is.

[Warning Track Power]

Dude get over it.

 

I'm over it just fine, thanks. But the question was who will have their number retired next. My response is that every single player who has their number retired by the Brewers is in the Hall of Fame. Braun has a 0.00% chance of making the Hall of Fame, and the above is why. Hence, I think it'd be shocking if his number gets retired.

 

I could see them doing an unofficial 'retiring' like they did for Gantner, though.

Not going to argue but every post of yours in the thread related to Braun references his PED use. I respect your thoughts on HOF being the cut off point. Counterpoint, he’d be the only MVP to not have his number retired (save Yelich for obvious reasons).

 

Gantner...don’t get me started with that guy. The fact that 17 hasn’t been worn is only because he’s from Fond du Lac. If he was from Raleigh, North Carolina, his career would be remembered quite differently.

[pacopete4]

Ganter was not good but happened to play on a few of our good teams in our history. It is a joke that they have had a soft retirement on his number. Just no good reason for it. He could have been born in the parking lot of County Stadium and it still doesn't make sense.

[adambr2]

I'll be surprised, but not shocked, if it isn't retired. I mean, if Fingers number is retired.....

 

Was Rollie involved in multiple PED scandals that I'm unaware of? I'll be absolutely shocked if Braun's number is retired.

Dude get over it. He made the mistake. It stinks. Instead of focusing on a mistake from almost a decade ago, pay more attention to Ryan Braun’s philanthropic efforts in California Strong and the money he is donating to COVID-19 response.

 

Braun’s number should absolutely be retired. He’ll likely have over 2,000 hits and over 350 HR, the franchise leader, when he retires.

 

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Philanthropic efforts are great but they have nothing to do with what is being discussed, unless you think they're a consideration for someone having their number retired which I would disagree with.

[adambr2]

Ganter was not good but happened to play on a few of our good teams in our history. It is a joke that they have had a soft retirement on his number. Just no good reason for it. He could have been born in the parking lot of County Stadium and it still doesn't make sense.

 

The historical remembrance of Jim Gantner is really weird. He was a very mediocre player.

 

Player wise, his career is Craig Counsell's almost to a tee and no one remembers Counsell as this great player.

[PeaveyFury]

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Yep, thanks.

[reillymcshane]

Easy.

 

#3

 

[pacopete4]

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Yep, thanks.

 

I think that the PED use and suspension keep him out of the HOF discussion for sure. However, I don't believe that this will keep him out of a number retirement or anything else the Brewers want to do to honor his playing days. They'd be foolish to. They are an organization that has a very poor history. It doesn't have many great players. Braun is one of them. I believe they'll realize that and he will be honored as such.

[nate82]

Easy.

 

#3

 

 

The GOAT of Brewers SS and should be in the baseball HOF!

[Warning Track Power]

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Philanthropic efforts are great but they have nothing to do with what is being discussed, unless you think they're a consideration for someone having their number retired which I would disagree with.

And my point was that his philanthropic efforts have more than made up for his PED use and suspension. It’s been 7 years since his suspension, and there is no way we can guess when he started and when/if he stopped using. I assume he’s been tested as often as possible under the CBA since that 2011 failed test.

 

Regardless, 2,000 hits and 350 HR should get your number retired especially on a franchise that retired Rollie Fingers number, has a soft retirement on Gantner and retired a uniform number for Bud Selig.

[jerichoholicninja]

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Yep, thanks.

 

I think that the PED use and suspension keep him out of the HOF discussion for sure. However, I don't believe that this will keep him out of a number retirement or anything else the Brewers want to do to honor his playing days. They'd be foolish to. They are an organization that has a very poor history. It doesn't have many great players. Braun is one of them. I believe they'll realize that and he will be honored as such.

 

I think the specter of retiring Yelich's number might keep the franchise from retiring Braun's. If Christian never comes here and we're 10-15 years from now and Braun was still the best and most iconic player the franchise had since Yount then 8 is probably going on the wall. Christian has taken the spotlight off of him and is now the face of the franchise for the foreseeable future so the Brewers can let Braun fade into the background after he retires.

 

As for Ryan and the baseball Hall of Fame, the PED stuff is irrelevant because his numbers are no where near Hall of Fame worthy. There's a good chance he doesn't even reach 400 homeruns.

[adambr2]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't think anyone was arguing that Braun should be HOF bound.

 

I agree that his numbers while probably ballotable are on the low end of most candidates and likely wouldn't even get him voted in without a scandal, although there are players with worse credentials in the Hall.

[adambr2]

Pretty sure his standpoint was "Ryan Braun's PED use and suspension will keep his number from being retired in Milwaukee," not "Ryan Braun is a dirtbag."

 

Philanthropic efforts are great but they have nothing to do with what is being discussed, unless you think they're a consideration for someone having their number retired which I would disagree with.

And my point was that his philanthropic efforts have more than made up for his PED use and suspension. It’s been 7 years since his suspension, and there is no way we can guess when he started and when/if he stopped using. I assume he’s been tested as often as possible under the CBA since that 2011 failed test.

 

Regardless, 2,000 hits and 350 HR should get your number retired especially on a franchise that retired Rollie Fingers number, has a soft retirement on Gantner and retired a uniform number for Bud Selig.

 

Certain honors are reserved for players without ethical stains on their career, regardless of what they've done since then to make amends. The amount of time Braun has been tested since then and how long it's been does not erase that stain.

 

It's why Roger Clemens isn't in the HOF despite a career that obviously meets the necessary credentials. Most well known players of great means are pretty active in charitable causes, (Clemens being quite active himself) , and none of that means a thing in their HOF credentials. It simply comes down to whether the committee reaches a point where they decide to overlook the ethical shortcomings.

 

I understand that having a number retired is different, but it's still a pretty big honor and how the Brewers weigh that in relation to his scandal, I won't pretend to know. His numbers in and of itself are obviously good enough. A soft retirement on Gantner is obviously silly, but that has nothing to do with Braun.

 

So that's why IMO, your argument that his philanthropic efforts should somehow overcome the PED history doesn't hold any water. If your argument was that Braun should be recognized and remembered for his accomplishments and not for his scandal since he has made efforts to make amends since then, I could certainly agree with that.

[Warning Track Power]

If your argument was that Braun should be recognized and remembered for his accomplishments and not for his scandal since he has made efforts to make amends since then, I could certainly agree with that.

Well done. Essentially that is my point.

 

Had Braun simply gone the Barry Bonds route and didn’t own his mistakes, then all the stats in the world couldn’t get me to retire #8. The fact that he didn’t go into hiding after his suspension and has so visibly been using his fame to help others, coupled with his statistics, makes me think retiring #8 is the correct move.

[adambr2]

But what Peavey, myself, and others are saying, is that you can respect accomplishments, and respect philanthropic works, while still maintaining the position that there are certain honors that are forever lost with egregious ethical acts that simply cannot be earned back with any amount of good deeds.

 

Now, I do agree that they may retire it. I just don't know one way or another how the Brewers will choose to handle it. There's precedent on both sides. The Cubs have not retired the number of Sammy Sosa, but the Giants did for Bonds. McGwire's is "soft retired" by the Cardinals, but not officially.

[homer]

I feel like a lot of teams latch onto the players from their first run to glory and over-retire numbers from those teams. Avalanche retired Ray Bourque's number even though he played 94 total games for them. Padres retired Steve Garvey's number even though he wasn't really that great with them. Brewers retired Rollie Fingers even though he was only on the team for four years.

[Warning Track Power]

But what Peavey, myself, and others are saying, is that you can respect accomplishments, and respect philanthropic works, while still maintaining the position that there are certain honors that are forever lost with egregious ethical acts that simply cannot be earned back with any amount of good deeds.

 

Now, I do agree that they may retire it. I just don't know one way or another how the Brewers will choose to handle it. There's precedent on both sides. The Cubs have not retired the number of Sammy Sosa, but the Giants did for Bonds. McGwire's is "soft retired" by the Cardinals, but not officially.

I can respect that opinion of lost honors as a result of unethical conduct and would not argue that it is wrong. To me though, McGwire not wanting to talk about the past and Bonds and Sosa never acknowledging anything, makes Braun stand out even more given his acceptance of his suspension, his apology and his work in the community to make amends for those actions.

 

As I said previously, with not a lot of great history on the Brewers side, I tend to think they retire it given Braun’s career statistics.

[AZBrewCrew]

#21 Stan Ross

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't think it is or is not a given that the Brewers retire Braun's number. There's a case to be made. Have they ever explicitly stated that the HOF is the absolute requirement for the team retiring a number?

 

Braun won an MVP, led the team to the playoffs twice in 4 years for the first time in a generation, had a string of top 10 MVP finishes, and was one of the top 5 premier hitters in the NL for a good while.

 

That being said, he also had the thing, which has been beaten to death. I think it's an interesting debate and lots of good points have been brought up on both sides, and it'll be interesting to see when he retires after the final numbers he tallies are counted and what the Brewers decide to do. I'm honestly good either way. I've always stood behind him. I think he's a generally good dude who did a crappy thing, let it snowball, and apologized for it, and paid for it.

 

Like I said, the Brewers will decide if he belongs. I'm good either way. Whatever they decide, we've got our memories of the good times and playoff runs and walkoffs and everything else he accomplished. Retiring or not retiring a number doesn't take any of that away or change what he accomplished in an other wise really good career.

[Warning Track Power]

I don't think it is or is not a given that the Brewers retire Braun's number. There's a case to be made. Have they ever explicitly stated that the HOF is the absolute requirement for the team retiring a number?

 

Braun won an MVP, led the team to the playoffs twice in 4 years for the first time in a generation, had a string of top 10 MVP finishes, and was one of the top 5 premier hitters in the NL for a good while.

 

That being said, he also had the thing, which has been beaten to death. I think it's an interesting debate and lots of good points have been brought up on both sides, and it'll be interesting to see when he retires after the final numbers he tallies are counted and what the Brewers decide to do. I'm honestly good either way. I've always stood behind him. I think he's a generally good dude who did a crappy thing, let it snowball, and apologized for it, and paid for it.

 

Like I said, the Brewers will decide if he belongs. I'm good either way. Whatever they decide, we've got our memories of the good times and playoff runs and walkoffs and everything else he accomplished. Retiring or not retiring a number doesn't take any of that away or change what he accomplished in an other wise really good career.

Agreed with this. It would be very strange to see #8 on the back of a different Brewer in the future. Much like for Packers fans of the same era, seeing #80 worn by Justin Perillo, Martellus Bennett or Jimmy Graham.