COVID-19 Thread

[stoutdude04]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

It is interesting to look at what they did and how quickly they did it and what people were willing/told to do and how the transmission has slowed there.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

Other countries have citizens who take their CDC and their health experts seriously. The U.S. is the only place where medical licences are seemingly handed out by Facebook and Twitter.

[jerichoholicninja]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

Other countries have citizens who take their CDC and their health experts seriously. The U.S. is the only place where medical licences are seemingly handed out by Facebook and Twitter.

 

The world wide medical community has been all over the place on this since the beginning. Not to mention all the US politicians who said to go out and live your life normally in February before condemning anyone for leaving their house just a few weeks later. No wonder people don't trust them.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/27/world/europe/coronavirus-spread-asymptomatic.html

 

These researchers in Germany found that people with COVID could still spread it despite not showing symptoms. The WHO told them they were wrong and tried to silence them. Turns out the Germans were right.

 

Then of course the CDC lying about masks, all the doctors saying it's dangerous to protest but not dangerous to protest this other thing that they support, and the Sweden health director saying all those countries were crazy for their lockdowns and getting the WHO to take Sweden off their COVID danger list or whatever.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

Other countries have citizens who take their CDC and their health experts seriously. The U.S. is the only place where medical licences are seemingly handed out by Facebook and Twitter.

 

US has plenty of those people as well. It's hard to categorize this as anything other than a hysterical statement. The majority of people here follow the rules. In a lot of places you don't really have a choice.

[Boomer5]

Are we comparing apples to orangutans when it comes to country vs country data?

[tmwiese55]

Are we comparing apples to orangutans when it comes to country vs country data?

 

For sure there is nuance on it. But there's plenty of graphs out there to find and see what you think. And when I'm using the phrase "Europe" it's data on the whole EU as one unit. Obviously a bit more complex than us counting all states together, but it's best we can do and somewhat similar size comp. Some graphs will also include other countries in too like Canada, Japan, Korea, etc but that seems like cherry picking a bit. But regardless, it seems to show there is stuff that can be done that works much better than what we've done.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

Other countries have citizens who take their CDC and their health experts seriously. The U.S. is the only place where medical licences are seemingly handed out by Facebook and Twitter.

 

US has plenty of those people as well. It's hard to categorize this as anything other than a hysterical statement. The majority of people here follow the rules. In a lot of places you don't really have a choice.

 

Of course. It's a "squeaky wheel" situation. The people who are obnoxious about their decision not to wear a mask, and those who are shaming them, are the ones getting the attention right now.

[homer]

Sure seems the fixes Europe did are working as of now. I guess we'll see what happens when they re-open more, but seems a big stretch to just put up our arms and give up when so many other countries are not having the problem we're having.

 

It is interesting to look at what they did and how quickly they did it and what people were willing/told to do and how the transmission has slowed there.

 

I think the true comparison will come in late fall.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

One thing I'm interested to see at the end of this are how the healthiest countries coped vs. those with less healthy populations. How the UK and USA cases recovered vs. places like Japan and Korea, etc. Not necessarily the slow of the spread, but what, if any, difference that made in the people who did get it.

[tmwiese55]

Another discussion point on it will be the universal medicine aspects of these other countries vs USA. I've seen some things on it but really haven't dug into much to really say anything. But it will be something to look at later on when we can do some hindsight 20/20.

 

One thing glossed over when so many folks were pushing the Sweden approach was that Sweden has universal medicine. So, in theory, you don't have the disadvantaged put at a bigger risk and/or someone risking massive debt if they get it.

[reillymcshane]

My wife said her organization has seen a really large increase in calls to their nurse line about getting tested over the last 7-10 days. More and more people are finding out they were exposed to someone who had COVID - wanting to get checked, asking about symptoms, etc. Not sure if that means a spike is coming.

 

Interesting thing she told me was a number of people testing positive have been linked to graduation parties. I wonder if people just let their guards down in that environment - especially as they drink and start to relax. They think, "Hey, my relatives and friends won't come if they feel sick" - that sort of thing.

[superfly]

 

If someone is wearing the mask and thinking it's for their own benefit, they don't understand the actual reason for wearing it.

 

Again you are just justifying why you wear a mask and why the person who doesn't is evil for not following what you feel is right.

 

By using scientific statistics to choose to act in a way that primarily benefits others?

 

I guess I can't agree with the logic that your rationale somehow makes that a self-centered choice, since that's virtually the definition of selfless, rather than selfish.

 

If your point is that some people wearing masks incorrectly think that the mask is for their own benefit, I agree completely. But the above takes quite a bit of a leap for me.

 

Wearing masks en masse is contributing to the elongation of this “pandemic” as we are preventing herd immunity. Like it or not, one way or another almost all of us will have to confront covid19. So in this non-mask wearing persons view (but still social distancing and basically doing nothing/driving myself insane since february), i don’t view responsible non mask wearers to be in the wrong, but to each their own.

[Baldkin]

 

By using scientific statistics to choose to act in a way that primarily benefits others?

 

I guess I can't agree with the logic that your rationale somehow makes that a self-centered choice, since that's virtually the definition of selfless, rather than selfish.

 

If your point is that some people wearing masks incorrectly think that the mask is for their own benefit, I agree completely. But the above takes quite a bit of a leap for me.

 

The percentages don't matter as it is how you view everything. The reason why both are self-centered is because you are thinking this is the right way that is why it is self-centered. No matter the outcome and no matter the reason you put behind it, it is still self-centered. You believe what you are doing is right while the person not wearing the mask is thinking they are doing what is right.

 

Basically you are being self-centered because you only see your side of the view and not the other persons view.

 

 

So, if someone stands on their porch and shoots a gun off into the air, not caring where the bullets may land - they are self centered.

 

If I choose not to do that, I'm also self centered, because I don't understand that other persons point of view?

 

Come on.

[Baldkin]

so I strap on the stupid mask. Have I mentioned that it fogs my glasses?

Feel your pain, my friend. I've read you need a better fitting mask - one that covers the top part tightly so your breath doesn't escape upwards.

 

I had the same problem until I got a mask with a wire built in to go over the top of the nose. Pinching that tight when I wear it has cut the fog down immensely.

[tmwiese55]

I really think people should look into what herd immunity really means and what that would entail. I know the phrase is out there a ton at this point, but I mean really dig into a bit more and the numbers on it and what that would entail (and in a country without universal healthcare). I doubt too many people would be pushing it the way they are then. And if folks have and still think that's a good route, well that's your opinion and you're free to it, but it sure seems too harsh (and risky) of a route for me and I'd think the vast majority of the population. Just saying if you haven't, to really learn about it before pushing it.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I really think people should look into what herd immunity really means and what that would entail. I know the phrase is out there a ton at this point, but I mean really dig into a bit more and the numbers on it and what that would entail. I doubt too many people would be pushing it the way they are then.

 

People are pushing it because it sounds easier than quarantine. Those are also people who have likely not contracted COVID, had a close family member contract it, or haven't yet lost someone close to them from COVID. .

[PeaveyFury]

I really think people should look into what herd immunity really means and what that would entail. I know the phrase is out there a ton at this point, but I mean really dig into a bit more and the numbers on it and what that would entail. I doubt too many people would be pushing it the way they are then. And if folks have and still think that's a good route, well that's your opinion and you're free to it, but it sure seems to harsh of a route for me and I'd think the vast majority of the population. Just saying if you haven't, to really learn about it before pushing it.

 

Good post. There concerns in the medical community that herd immunity won't be realistic in the short term EVEN WITH a vaccine.

[homer]

Herd immunity would overwhelm the healthcare system and lead to millions of deaths.

 

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808

 

"Even if infection with the COVID-19 virus creates long-lasting immunity, a large number of people would have to become infected to reach the herd immunity threshold. Experts estimate that in the U.S., 70% of the population — more than 200 million people — would have to recover from COVID-19 to halt the epidemic. If many people become sick with COVID-19 at once, the health care system could quickly become overwhelmed. This amount of infection could also lead to serious complications and millions of deaths, especially among older people and those who have chronic conditions."

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Mask seems to really help my seasonal allergies so that's one thing.

[CheezWizHed]

Interesting that Sweden reported zero deaths on June 29th (and a strong downward trend to zero since a mid-April peak). Sweden has about the same population as WI+MN and has had 150% more deaths than both states combined (~5300 to ~2100). Climate and health care capabilities would also be similar in those areas.

 

Not advocating one way over the other, just trying to compare current numbers. Obviously, if herd mentality does work it is expected that the first wave is higher to reduce future waves, so it will be interesting to watch the results into the winter.

 

edit- had an error in the number of deaths in MN+WI I had to correct.

[PeaveyFury]

A lot of the success in Sweden has been attributed to the populace adhering to strict social distancing rules, despite the non-shutdown. Not sure if current data still supports that, but it was the belief a few weeks ago.

 

As the 'mask/no-mask' debate certainly shows, the US certainly hasn't been able to maintain that adherence since the quarantine was lifted....

[homer]

I'm not sure I'd call Sweden a success just yet. Compare them to their neighbors Norway and Finland. Sweden has a massively higher death rate and they are nowhere near herd immunity (last I read they were at 6.1% in late May). Of course, if this thing ramps up again in the fall/winter maybe they will be but I think they have a really long way to go.

[LouisEly]

All of the data for all of the states and countries reporting, plus projections:

 

https://covid19.healthdata.org/united-states-of-america

 

Interesting that even with the recent spikes, they are not projecting the daily total number of deaths to rise for the next couple of weeks.

[sveumrules]

I'm not sure I'd call Sweden a success just yet. Compare them to their neighbors Norway and Finland. Sweden has a massively higher death rate and they are nowhere near herd immunity (last I read they were at 6.1% in late May). Of course, if this thing ramps up again in the fall/winter maybe they will be but I think they have a really long way to go.

 

Sweden currently at 521.45 deaths per million, 5th highest worldwde behind Belgium, UK, Italy & Spain.

 

Whatever Finland (59.44 deaths per million) & Norway (46.85 deaths per million) did definitely seems to have saved more lives.

 

USA currently at 385.05 deaths per million, 7th highest...

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/

[JosephC]

Actually pretty surprised at some of the wording on the Department of Health's website in regards to the masks-

 

There may be a benefit to reducing asymptomatic transmission and reinforcing physical distancing from the use of face covers. However, face coverings may increase risk if users reduce their use of strong defenses, such as physical distancing and frequent hand washing, when using cloth face coverings.

 

Wearing a cloth face cover may be beneficial as it may help to protect others from germs you may be spreading without knowing it.

 

There is limited evidence to suggest that use of cloth face coverings by the public during a pandemic could help reduce disease transmission. Their primary role is to reduce the release of infectious particles into the air when someone speaks, coughs, or sneezes, including someone who has COVID-19 but feels well.

 

https://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/covid-19/protect.htm

Scroll to bottom of page and click the "Should I Wear a Cloth Mask?" link.

 

I wonder how long it will be until the powers-that-be come down on Palm and Evers and get this language changed. "May increase risk." "May be beneficial as it may." "Limited evidence." Don't they know that the face mask concept will get businesses open and get us revenue....oh, ahh, wait...we mean SAVE THE WORLD! They are not following the narrative!

 

Pretty sick of the latest wave of media fear-mongering. Yes, it's gone crazy in the south, so crazy that we now have 2.7 million confirmed cases in a country with a population over 331 million (look out now, we are 80% of the way to a whopping 1% of the population being infected).