Twins Sign Donaldson - Four Year/$92 Million

[adambr2]

You can't "cut" money that we haven't spent. What do you expect him to say? Anyone already here prior to that is already guaranteed their contract, it's not like we can cut Braun and save his money.

 

People weren't advocating to sign Donaldson just to spend money, they were advocating for it because he was a 6+ WAR player at a position we had a gaping hole at and could have been realistically afforded, with or without saving $8.75M elsewhere.

[FVBrewerFan]

As usual, how do you know Donaldson would have ever signed with the Brewers, short of overpaying? He knows he may need the DH later in this contract, may like the AL more for other reasons, who knows.

 

This trend is actually getting really old. Player X signs with team Y, and poster Z complains the Brewers are cheap. Over and over and over. Stearns may not be perfect, but he's shown he knows what he's doing. He has to look at the short term AND the long term, not jump like a puppy at every sexy name available in FA.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

As usual, how do you know Donaldson would have ever signed with the Brewers, short of overpaying? He knows he may need the DH later in this contract, may like the AL more for other reasons, who knows.

 

This trend is actually getting really old. Player X signs with team Y, and poster Z complains the Brewers are cheap. Over and over and over. Stearns may not be perfect, but he's shown he knows what he's doing. He has to look at the short term AND the long term, not jump like a puppy at every sexy name available in FA.

 

If the team is struggling at the All-Star break, and there is no hope in sight, and the additions haven't been good, then I think there would be some reason to be mad that they didn't do more this offseason. Getting mad now, though, as akin to yelling at a cloud. I've said several times that the Reds suck until they prove they don't suck. Likewise, the Brewers are a contender until they prove they aren't. Stearns has at least earned that.

[adambr2]

As usual, how do you know Donaldson would have ever signed with the Brewers, short of overpaying? He knows he may need the DH later in this contract, may like the AL more for other reasons, who knows.

 

This trend is actually getting really old. Player X signs with team Y, and poster Z complains the Brewers are cheap. Over and over and over. Stearns may not be perfect, but he's shown he knows what he's doing. He has to look at the short term AND the long term, not jump like a puppy at every sexy name available in FA.

 

Normally this is a fair argument however in Donaldson's case his representatives notified teams that they were simply waiting for a team to hit "X" dollars and they were going to sign with whatever team did.

 

Given that and the fact that this is going to be his last big contract I think it's fair to assume he was just looking for the most money. It's fair to question whether it would have taken 4/92 or 4/98 but if you're all-in on Donaldson I don't think that makes much difference.

[TJseven7]

You can't "cut" money that we haven't spent. What do you expect him to say? Anyone already here prior to that is already guaranteed their contract, it's not like we can cut Braun and save his money.

 

People weren't advocating to sign Donaldson just to spend money, they were advocating for it because he was a 6+ WAR player at a position we had a gaping hole at and could have been realistically afforded, with or without saving $8.75M elsewhere.

 

MKE has spent over 21 million this year. You want to remove Gyorko Sogard Gacia Smoak and Lindblom for Donaldson?

You can't point towards the gain the team makes because you spent more.

What credit does the team get for not spending that 8.75mil. That they can still use at any time? We good with 1 war. If so read above.

 

PS this 6 war guy.

Fangraphs

2015 8.7

2016 7.6

2017 5.1

skip

2019 4.9

ZIPs has 2020 at 3.8

[adambr2]

As usual, how do you know Donaldson would have ever signed with the Brewers, short of overpaying? He knows he may need the DH later in this contract, may like the AL more for other reasons, who knows.

 

This trend is actually getting really old. Player X signs with team Y, and poster Z complains the Brewers are cheap. Over and over and over. Stearns may not be perfect, but he's shown he knows what he's doing. He has to look at the short term AND the long term, not jump like a puppy at every sexy name available in FA.

 

If the team is struggling at the All-Star break, and there is no hope in sight, and the additions haven't been good, then I think there would be some reason to be mad that they didn't do more this offseason. Getting mad now, though, as akin to yelling at a cloud. I've said several times that the Reds suck until they prove they don't suck. Likewise, the Brewers are a contender until they prove they aren't. Stearns has at least earned that.

 

I don't think most people are yelling at clouds. I think Stearns has done a fantastic job and I'll certainly wait and see on what happens with the guys he got and am excited to see what guys like Urias do.

 

I think it's ok to feel some disappointment. There's a difference between that and thinking Stearns sucks.

[adambr2]

You can't "cut" money that we haven't spent. What do you expect him to say? Anyone already here prior to that is already guaranteed their contract, it's not like we can cut Braun and save his money.

 

People weren't advocating to sign Donaldson just to spend money, they were advocating for it because he was a 6+ WAR player at a position we had a gaping hole at and could have been realistically afforded, with or without saving $8.75M elsewhere.

 

MKE has spent over 21 million this year. You want to remove Gyorko Sogard Gacia Smoak and Lindblom for Donaldson?

You can't point towards the gain the team makes because you spent more.

What credit does the team get for not spending that 8.75mil. That they can still use at any time? We good with 1 war. If so read above.

 

No, I'm not removing anyone except probably Sogard and Gyorko because of position redundancy. Did Mark A speak with Stearns this offseason and tell him that his offseason budget was $21M for 2020? If so, I agree with you that the guys they spent it on make more sense than spending it all on Donaldson would have, since they do have to fill out a roster.

 

If not, I'll have to assume that they could have afforded all of the above if they had wanted to since they still would have spent far less than last season. Beyond that, I'm not sure why in the world you are insisting that we have to fit every move into our current payroll. We can't point toward a gain the team makes if we spend more? Why not? We're not trading pogs here, we have money to spend.

 

If you think Donaldson simply isn't worth it because of age/regression risk or whatever than that's one thing but saying we have to nullify an equal amount of payroll just to make a case for him doesn't make any sense at all.

[TJseven7]

So your idea of a better off season is 15.5 mil more spending and a long term commitment on an old guy who ZIPS says gives us 2 more whole wins in 2020. A guy who becomes a negative value contract in 2021. I'll take DS path over yours. Can't wait to see your 2021 idea where we, well just spend more money AGAIN.

 

Soon we'll have a team stuck at 140 mil that isn't any good.

[adambr2]

So your idea of a better off season is 15.5 mil more spending and a long term commitment on an old guy who ZIPS says gives us 2 more whole wins in 2020. A guy who becomes a negative value contract in 2021. I'll take DS path over yours. Can't wait to see your 2021 idea where we, well just spend more money AGAIN.

 

Soon we'll have a team stuck at 140 mil that isn't any good.

 

Disagreeing on methods and strategies is fine. Your condensation and sarcasm is really over the top and not needed. I've been on record many times defending DS against attacks from people who say he doesn't do enough, and I've said we need to pick and choose our spots, you saying I'll just ask to spend more money again in 2021 is projecting a posting style onto me that isn't mine. You portraying me as a "just throw money at the problem" poster shows you haven't really payed any attention to the things I've posted this offseason at all.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that Donaldson becomes a negative value player in 2021, it is nothing more than your opinion and should not be stated as anything more than that.

[TJseven7]

So your idea of a better off season is 15.5 mil more spending and a long term commitment on an old guy who ZIPS says gives us 2 more whole wins in 2020. A guy who becomes a negative value contract in 2021. I'll take DS path over yours. Can't wait to see your 2021 idea where we, well just spend more money AGAIN.

 

Soon we'll have a team stuck at 140 mil that isn't any good.

 

Disagreeing on methods and strategies is fine. Your condensation and sarcasm is really over the top and not needed. I've been on record many times defending DS against attacks from people who say he doesn't do enough, and I've said we need to pick and choose our spots, you saying I'll just ask to spend more money again in 2021 is projecting a posting style onto me that isn't mine. You portraying me as a "just throw money at the problem" poster shows you haven't really payed any attention to the things I've posted this offseason at all.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that Donaldson becomes a negative value player in 2021, it is nothing more than your opinion and should not be stated as anything more than that.

 

If I improperly characterized you then I am mistaken. That is the stance you are taking on this one though. They just need to spend more. You refuse to offset the extra spending. You just want 15.5 more on the cap.

 

Don't act like it's just my opinion. I'm quoting ZIPS. I'll take their system over your opinion. They have him estimated at 2.9 WAR in 2021. I don't go by 1 WAR = 8 mil belief because if that was true MKE's 1.8 WAR projected out of the 6.5 mil spent on Sogard/Gyorko is a 7.9 million dollar value. That's only the WAR they accumulate as their portion of 3b platoon, so it's to be assumed they are worth even more than that.

 

I'll take 1.8 WAR at a value over 3.8 war at cost then 2.9 war from a negative contract then 2.1 WAR on an ever growing worse contract on top of Cains 18 million dollar contract as a 36 year old. To me that looks like a great way to blow up the last year Yelich is in our system at a huge value and trigger a fire sale rebuild in 2022 instead of a 3rd year of very uncommon window of opportunity.

[adambr2]

So your idea of a better off season is 15.5 mil more spending and a long term commitment on an old guy who ZIPS says gives us 2 more whole wins in 2020. A guy who becomes a negative value contract in 2021. I'll take DS path over yours. Can't wait to see your 2021 idea where we, well just spend more money AGAIN.

 

Soon we'll have a team stuck at 140 mil that isn't any good.

 

Disagreeing on methods and strategies is fine. Your condensation and sarcasm is really over the top and not needed. I've been on record many times defending DS against attacks from people who say he doesn't do enough, and I've said we need to pick and choose our spots, you saying I'll just ask to spend more money again in 2021 is projecting a posting style onto me that isn't mine. You portraying me as a "just throw money at the problem" poster shows you haven't really payed any attention to the things I've posted this offseason at all.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that Donaldson becomes a negative value player in 2021, it is nothing more than your opinion and should not be stated as anything more than that.

 

If I improperly characterized you then I am mistaken. That is the stance you are taking on this one. They just need to spend more. You refuse to offset the extra spending. You just want 15.5 more on the cap.

 

Don't act like it's just my opinion. I'm quoting ZIPS. I'll take their system over your opinion.

 

There is no "cap," which is why I didn't really understand the need to offset what we spent. The spending limit is whatever Mark Attanasio is comfortable investing.

 

No, I'm not saying in general to get better they just need to spend more. I just said in this case, in this example, I would have found Donaldson to be worth the investment. I also think given the current payroll it's also not an unrealistic investment.

 

I can understand why some would disagree, I just don't like the implication that anyone who thinks Donaldson would have been worth it is just flat out wrong.

 

Just curious, do you have a link to ZIPS projecting Donaldson becoming negative value in 2021?

[TJseven7]

Just google Josh Donaldson WAR 2021. Fangraphs has it right at the top.

 

There is no cap. Then what stops MKE from spending like the Cubs? They have a budget. It's the same thing. If this is the budget then that's the budget. I don't think they max their budget unless they are buying value. No one projects Donaldson as a value. Even if you want to give 1 war per 8 mil. When you do the math there's more value in Sogard Gyroko in 2020 than all of Donaldson's contract. Also if you use 8 mil per WAR and ZIPs projections. Sogard Gyorko have as much projected value at 3b in 2020 as Donaldson has in 2020-2022. That's before the bad deal they project this to be in 2023 and the 8 mil opt out dead money in 2024.

 

I believe MKE wants to keep a bullet in the chamber and at least 1 in the mag. I believe they fired to empty in 2019 with Grandal and Moose. Those guys were value contracts that had no long term risk. Blue moon type deals. I don't see them being a team that signs a deal saying, well this one is good, the next is fair, the 3rd is rocky and we'll eat the 4th. MKE can't afford that. Before you point at Cain, I don't think anyone saw his OBP falling below 330 and despite the struggles at the plate he was a GG CF. GG CF appears to be one position where MKE highly values defense.

[brewcrewdue80]

So your idea of a better off season is 15.5 mil more spending and a long term commitment on an old guy who ZIPS says gives us 2 more whole wins in 2020. A guy who becomes a negative value contract in 2021. I'll take DS path over yours. Can't wait to see your 2021 idea where we, well just spend more money AGAIN.

 

Soon we'll have a team stuck at 140 mil that isn't any good.

 

Disagreeing on methods and strategies is fine. Your condensation and sarcasm is really over the top and not needed. I've been on record many times defending DS against attacks from people who say he doesn't do enough, and I've said we need to pick and choose our spots, you saying I'll just ask to spend more money again in 2021 is projecting a posting style onto me that isn't mine. You portraying me as a "just throw money at the problem" poster shows you haven't really payed any attention to the things I've posted this offseason at all.

 

Also, you have zero evidence that Donaldson becomes a negative value player in 2021, it is nothing more than your opinion and should not be stated as anything more than that.

 

If I improperly characterized you then I am mistaken. That is the stance you are taking on this one though. They just need to spend more. You refuse to offset the extra spending. You just want 15.5 more on the cap.

 

Don't act like it's just my opinion. I'm quoting ZIPS. I'll take their system over your opinion. They have him estimated at 2.9 WAR in 2021. I don't go by 1 WAR = 8 mil belief because if that was true MKE's 1.8 WAR projected out of the 6.5 mil spent on Sogard/Gyorko is a 7.9 million dollar value. That's only the WAR they accumulate as their portion of 3b platoon, so it's to be assumed they are worth even more than that.

 

I'll take 1.8 WAR at a value over 3.8 war at cost then 2.9 war from a negative contract then 2.1 WAR on an ever growing worse contract on top of Cains 18 million dollar contract as a 36 year old. To me that looks like a great way to blow up the last year Yelich is in our system at a huge value and trigger a fire sale rebuild in 2022 instead of a 3rd year of very uncommon window of opportunity.

 

Yelich isn't even worth 6War via that zips projection.

 

I did answer your question maybe it wasnt a direct yes but came in explaining how the core of your team have been just as likely to be AAAA players. Donaldson is not. Gamel or Taylor can be AAAA or give 1-2WAR outperforming AAAA. You can option Taylor, maybe Gamel? You couldnt for Garcia/Sogard/Gyorko.

Also I go off of Baseball Reference in regards to WAR. Fangraphs is inconsistent and doesnt possess the historical numbers or WAR comparisons of the greats. It almost seems (going from 6.1-4.9 and projecting 3.8WAR) that they are giving older players a -1WAR to start and then dont adjust so they cant be that wrong?

6.1 WAR via BRef. Coming back from injury and a trajectory of 7+WAR seasons the previous 5 seasons.

You want to use Fangraphs use them for their charts and numbers like zone swing, out of zone swing, zone contact, out of zone contact. Look at the value he is to pitches thrown against. You can see trends in batting profile. I think you can glance over at Donaldson and see he was who he's been. Maybe go to Sogard or Garcia, and Gyorko and study what made their season last year(or broke Gyorkos] The value and projection side of Fangraphs is lacking on rosey. And it gets worse to older players.

 

Donaldson the Brewers could have done with a great chance to add a former MVP still producing near that level. He fit the need on the roster. But the Ryu, Cole' Strasburg' Rendon signings, I have no problem against because the money or the consistency or health. 4/84mil doable. Suggesting 6WAR from Donaldson? More than doable his track record says it all. Unlike Ryu or Rendon's. Certainly unlike Sogard or Garcia. By now you should have your answer. Donaldson now seeing what he signed for all day every day in this FA class. In 2 years I believe this signing will easily be the best signing of the FA class.