Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY

[reillymcshane]

I liked this quote about the whole thing:

 

"Crane won," he said. "The entire thing was programmed to protect the future of the franchise. He got his championship. He keeps his team. His fine is nothing. The sport lost, but Crane won."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

[reillymcshane]

Cora is going to get nailed for this as well. His punishment is being held until MLB finishes their investigation of sign-stealing in Boston. But if Hinch got suspended for a year, Cora should get at least as long a suspension. He appears to have run the thing.

 

No MLB players are being punished for all of this, as they were granted immunity for cooperation. Cora was a coach - so he won't be covered by this protection.

 

I'm guessing the same fate awaits Cora. He'll get a year suspension - and the Sox will give him the axe, and thus save themselves some money, and get away from the stink of the entire thing. It gives the Red Sox's new GM an easy way to bring in his own manager.

[KeithStone53151]

I liked this quote about the whole thing:

 

"Crane won," he said. "The entire thing was programmed to protect the future of the franchise. He got his championship. He keeps his team. His fine is nothing. The sport lost, but Crane won."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

 

The future is, the Astros lose a bunch of good players after this year...and their 2 TOR pitchers after 2021. They lose their 4 best draft picks over the next 2 years. Any endorsement deals for the team and players will certainly take a hit. The $5 million fine. Their front office is in shambles. They likely won't be able to attract the best talent to fill vacancies. Every team hates the Astros, and I'd be surprised if some of those hitters don't eat some fastballs in ST.

 

The championship obviously helps mitigate those losses, maybe makes it a win. But the Astros are in for some very difficult times in the near future. And who knows how good their players will be without the assistance of video monitoring to help with pitch recognition.

 

I'll add they may very well deal with some of the ball/strike calls that Braun dealt with his first few years after his suspension. Consciously or subconsciously.

[MrTPlush]

I don't know guys, this may end up a good thing. Think of all the new merchandise they can sell for this event:

 

https://2020trendingtees.com/product/houston-asterisks-shirt/

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't think any player endorsements will suffer. People will have moved on from this by Opening Day. They weren't punished and nobody is going to care. People have forgiven way worse.

[clancyphile]

I liked this quote about the whole thing:

 

"Crane won," he said. "The entire thing was programmed to protect the future of the franchise. He got his championship. He keeps his team. His fine is nothing. The sport lost, but Crane won."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

 

The future is, the Astros lose a bunch of good players after this year...and their 2 TOR pitchers after 2021. They lose their 4 best draft picks over the next 2 years. Any endorsement deals for the team and players will certainly take a hit. The $5 million fine. Their front office is in shambles. They likely won't be able to attract the best talent to fill vacancies. Every team hates the Astros, and I'd be surprised if some of those hitters don't eat some fastballs in ST.

 

The championship obviously helps mitigate those losses, maybe makes it a win. But the Astros are in for some very difficult times in the near future. And who knows how good their players will be without the assistance of video monitoring to help with pitch recognition.

 

I'll add they may very well deal with some of the ball/strike calls that Braun dealt with his first few years after his suspension. Consciously or subconsciously.

 

They need to find a GM and manager with only a month to go before spring training. They will need to overpay free agents for the near term. Their farm system will take a hit.

 

They have great talent on field, but it's going to be very rough for them.

[markedman5]

Cora gone

 

[CheezWizHed]

The Astros should be banned from post-season play for a few years to boot. The draft picks and $5M "sting" the franchise, but not greatly. Possibly strip the WS title too.

[MenchHead]

For everyone suggesting a post-season ban-why would MLB do that? Players would rest, attendance and viewership would fall, and the team would jettison any quality player they had in that window of time. It’s absolutely absurd and would hurt the MLB more than it would punish one team.

[CheezWizHed]

Because it would provide an actual punishment to the team ownership. Thus providing an incentive for the management to actively prevent such things in the future. It's common in college ranks.

[reillymcshane]

I liked this quote about the whole thing:

 

"Crane won," he said. "The entire thing was programmed to protect the future of the franchise. He got his championship. He keeps his team. His fine is nothing. The sport lost, but Crane won."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28477741/why-anger-boiling-scenes-houston-astros-sign-stealing-punishments

 

The future is, the Astros lose a bunch of good players after this year...and their 2 TOR pitchers after 2021. They lose their 4 best draft picks over the next 2 years. Any endorsement deals for the team and players will certainly take a hit. The $5 million fine. Their front office is in shambles. They likely won't be able to attract the best talent to fill vacancies. Every team hates the Astros, and I'd be surprised if some of those hitters don't eat some fastballs in ST.

 

The championship obviously helps mitigate those losses, maybe makes it a win. But the Astros are in for some very difficult times in the near future. And who knows how good their players will be without the assistance of video monitoring to help with pitch recognition.

 

I'll add they may very well deal with some of the ball/strike calls that Braun dealt with his first few years after his suspension. Consciously or subconsciously.

 

They need to find a GM and manager with only a month to go before spring training. They will need to overpay free agents for the near term. Their farm system will take a hit.

 

They have great talent on field, but it's going to be very rough for them.

And Houston fans and ownership only have a WS championship to assuage their woes....

[lcbj68c]

For everyone suggesting a post-season ban-why would MLB do that? Players would rest, attendance and viewership would fall, and the team would jettison any quality player they had in that window of time. It’s absolutely absurd and would hurt the MLB more than it would punish one team.

 

I generally agree that MLB wouldn't do that, but I'm not sure viewership would fall if some other team was crowned AL West Champions instead. I personally will not watch Astros games on account of this. Not looking for my stance to have an impact. Let Fox Sports Houston sue MLB if they feel that strongly about their lost revenue.

[reillymcshane]

I'm not sure what more punishment the league could impose.

 

More draft picks? Perhaps. Doubling what they lost would have been good in my book.

 

More money? Can't. The league can only fine a team a maximum of $5M. Personally, I wish the team would have to fork over gobs and gobs of money for all of this. But that can't happen according to league rules. Having the Astros write out a $100M check to charity or whatever would have been cool.

 

Strip them of their title? Tempting. Not sure about that. Trying to 'revise' history usually makes no one happy. But it would be kind of fun to take away their WS trophy and watch them lower their banner. But maybe that's just me being petty. The tough thing is that you don't know what the actual outcome would have been. If you look at the 2017 season, Houston actually had a better record on the road than at home - .654 Winning % on road vs .593 at home.

 

Ban them from future post season play? Not happening. Way too much money involved in the game to do that. And it really hurts the Astros fans more than anyone.

 

What I'd actually like to see is the names of all the people involved. Publicly out them all. Let the world know who did what (just saying 'many of the position players were involved' isn't good enough as it might wrongfully implicate some people). Add in coaches and employees. It would be a start.

 

Next, tell every person involved in the scandal - players, coaches, employees - that if they are ever found to be part of such a thing in the future - or know about it, and don't report it, they'll be banned for a year. This would scare the crap out of people.

 

Also, make sure that this kind of thing is covered in the next CBA - meaning players could get suspended for this kind of stuff.

 

Next, have the team apologize. I didn't hear that from Crane or anyone. Simply acknowledge what they did hurt others - fans, other players, other organizations. I wish they had had the guts to do that.

 

Force the team to come up with an ironclad (or as close as possible) way to prevent this kind of thing, announce exactly what it is, and do it. Right now, it's generic 'we'll put systems in place to prevent this kind of thing' - which is so vague it does no good. Spell out what that means - exactly. And make sure it's paid for by the team.

[MNBrew]

My son & I were discussing this on Monday morning on the way to school. I told him my idea: I thought a strong deterrent for other teams, besides any fines & suspensions, would be to take away Houston's top 5 picks for 3 years.

 

Obviously Rob Manfred liked his idea better, and he never asked my opinion.

 

Modern media's/society's sensationalistic approach would be to "out" everyone involved. Oh, how do we ever love to fix the blame! I put more stock in how they're actually going to fix the problem. Yesterday's decision was the public message delivery. The rest doesn't have to be public -- or talk -- just strong, effective, & efficient actions. . . . The more public the process from here out, the longer the black eye lasts. Show us it's not about putting spin on the solution, just having a strong & effective solution.

[JimH5]

Of all the scandals in baseball, this one seems the most tame, though the punishments levied seem pretty severe to me.

 

I think part of that is the outright defiance of the Commissioner's orders following the Apple Watch case. They went right back to a technology-aided sign stealing system after being told not to, and so Manfred needed to respond firmly, if for no other reason than to establish his authority.

[TJseven7]

1 What I'd actually like to see is the names of all the people involved. Publicly out them all. Let the world know who did what (just saying 'many of the position players were involved' isn't good enough as it might wrongfully implicate some people). Add in coaches and employees. It would be a start.

 

2 Next, tell every person involved in the scandal - players, coaches, employees - that if they are ever found to be part of such a thing in the future - or know about it, and don't report it, they'll be banned for a year. This would scare the crap out of people.

 

3 Also, make sure that this kind of thing is covered in the next CBA - meaning players could get suspended for this kind of stuff.

 

4 Next, have the team apologize. I didn't hear that from Crane or anyone. Simply acknowledge what they did hurt others - fans, other players, other organizations. I wish they had had the guts to do that.

 

5 Force the team to come up with an ironclad (or as close as possible) way to prevent this kind of thing, announce exactly what it is, and do it. Right now, it's generic 'we'll put systems in place to prevent this kind of thing' - which is so vague it does no good. Spell out what that means - exactly. And make sure it's paid for by the team.

 

They'd never do the 1st piece because showing the full scope of this would be suicide.

The 2nd 3rd one should obviously be done. As quietly as possible, with language in the CBA that is vague for the specific reason of not making this a story again.

4 it's pretty dumb not to apologize when you are already proven guilty.

5 it's pretty embarrassing that the MLB doesn't understand PR. What you pointed out is taught in PR 101. Spell it out, be specific and explain why you are doing ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING WITHIN YOUR POWER to make sure it never happens again. However do not define "it." Do not explain the full scope of what actually happened and how far it was spread.

 

Missing specifics on changes and the Astro owner's apology are PR mis-steps. However, showing how far it truly went by calling people out is a terrible idea for the image of the league. You want 3-4 fall guys between the 2 teams because that makes the scope of it seem smaller than it is.

[torts]

Does Boston get penalized or do they avoid it because they fired Cora?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Does Boston get penalized or do they avoid it because they fired Cora?

 

They get punished no doubt. They are just trying to get out in front a bit by firing him. All the writing is on the wall.

[wildcat83]

One aspect people keep bringing up is vacating the WS title, but what does that actually do that hurts the team? They can't hang a banner about it?

 

I remember when USC had to vacate a football national championship, and even the players involved like Reggie Bush basically mocked the whole process. The players and fans lived it, they had their celebration. When that title was taken away it was news stories for a few days, but after that I doubt anyone really even gave it a second thought. I just don't see how that's an actual punishment.

[MrTPlush]

I think pro sports teams cling to championships much more than college sports do...at least it seems that way. If you take the championship away you basically force the Astros to never sell merchandise related to it forever. That is a decent hit financially...especially if they don't see another title for decades. Of course not a few years into the future most of the shine to that World Series has worn off...would be much more negative if you got caught within the year after.

 

Think about the gut punch that would be to a team that has only won it that one time. Back to no banners. I also think the USC thing is a poor example. When they vacate college stuff it is usually one player being ineligible for taking money when most people think it is a joke they aren't paid. I just don't think a player taking money is something people frown upon or even really consider cheating.

 

They don't need to do it though. People who think they cheated their way to the title won't acknowledge it. They have tainted it and that is enough...much like Bonds and his HRs.

[pitchleague]

I haven't seen anyone mention this (unless I missed it, which is entirely possible !) but will Hinch, Luhnow, and (presumably) Cora be suspended for just this season or will the suspension not begin until they are actually hired by someone?

[MrTPlush]

It starts now, they don't need to be hired. Their concern isn't the year suspension and loss of salary though...it is being attached to this scandal. It will be interesting how easy it is to get a job after this. For Cora I would imagine he is pretty much screwed. I could see Hinch/Luhnow finding jobs or having a hard time...hard to know. There is just a ton of negative attachment to them whether they participated in it or not. Hard to hire someone to run your team that comes with baggage.

[topper09er]

1 What I'd actually like to see is the names of all the people involved. Publicly out them all. Let the world know who did what (just saying 'many of the position players were involved' isn't good enough as it might wrongfully implicate some people). Add in coaches and employees. It would be a start.

 

They'd never do the 1st piece because showing the full scope of this would be suicide.

 

I totally disagree, the cover-up is always the worst part and eventually it will come out anyways. There will be another Jose Canceso for this who will give names and details of how all the teams involved did something like this.

[jerichoholicninja]

It starts now, they don't need to be hired. Their concern isn't the year suspension and loss of salary though...it is being attached to this scandal. It will be interesting how easy it is to get a job after this. For Cora I would imagine he is pretty much screwed. I could see Hinch/Luhnow finding jobs or having a hard time...hard to know. There is just a ton of negative attachment to them whether they participated in it or not. Hard to hire someone to run your team that comes with baggage.

 

Is this really baggage? The women-beaters and PED'ers have had no problems getting jobs as long as they have talent. Luhnow built a powerhouse organization. I'd want him in Milwaukee if Stearns were to leave. And you have to think everyone in MLB front offices know which players were involved. If Luhnow, Hinch, and Cora get blackballed, those players should too. But Carlos Beltran still has a job so I doubt that's going to happen.

[SeaBass]

My prediction is Cora gets a multiple year ban. He's essentially been credited as the mastermind of all this and, presumably, used these tactics with 2 teams, both of which won the World Series. I honestly wonder if Cora will ever be hired as a manager again. If he does manage again I think it might be several years before he's given the opportunity.