Luhnow and Hinch fired by Astros; Cora Out in Boston, Beltran Out in NY

[SeaBass]

I have a hard time believing fiers is going to be impacted negatively by this. Plus dude will be 35 this year. His days in the league are numbered regardless.

 

I find the connection of Stearns to this incredibly surprising considering the Astros front office was not at all involved. It's not like luhnow created and streamlined this system. All he did was bury his head in the sand so the players could do it. You could argue it raises questions on what the culture is like within the Brewers organization, but I would be surprised if it was anything close to what Manfred found within the Astros org

Yeah, Stearns was gone well before this went down. This was spear headed by Alex Cora, not the Astros front office. As far as the Brewers culture under Stearns I'd wager once MA got wind of anything like we've heard about the Astros culture he'd put an end to it. I don't know much about the Astros owner but I'm not sure if his involvement or style with the team is similar to Mark's with the Brewers. The culture starts with him IMO, I'd think Stearns would be expected to conform to that. I feel like most of what I hear about the Brewers organization from outside sources is positive for whatever that's worth.

[TJseven7]

As previously mentioned the report outlines AJ Hinch did know. He hated it, so much so he smashed the TV in the hallway multiple times...but he didn’t stop it. Thus, he got a notable punishment.

 

The way I understood it is he didn’t really show his displeasure towards everyone. Maybe he smashed the TV when no one was around. Shows how determined some were to keep doing it.

Regardless it seemed like he was frustrated, but kept it to himself.

 

So the Manager didn't approve.

 

I find the connection of Stearns to this incredibly surprising considering the Astros front office was not at all involved. It's not like luhnow created and streamlined this system. All he did was bury his head in the sand so the players could do it.

 

Nor did the FO play a part in this.

 

Honestly, I kind of feel bad for them after reading that. Imagine working your lives for this opportunity and wanting to stand on the top of the baseball world on merit and watching people around you run rogue. Do you quit this high paying dream job because you can't get in front of it? Do you speak out and get yourself blacklisted, and risk your entire career? Do you can Cora and watch a revolt? That's a horrible place to be put in.

 

Put me in that position and I'd be besides myself. I'd be destroyed by the notion that I have to throw away what I worked to earn so that I could have a clean conscience because I can't stop what's going on around me. In the end, these guys take the fall anyway.

 

I don't know.

 

However that small price to pay for Astros fans? I'm sorry, if the Crew won a WS this way and it came out they were cheating to win it, I'd feel sick as a fan and I'd be done spending my time and money on the sport. Vacate the title or not, if you claim that as a victory it says a lot about you.

[clancyphile]

I’d think this will affect Beltran’s HoF chances, at least in the short term. Cheating is cheating and if you are going to keep the steroid guys out for one version ...

 

They let Gaylord Perry enter Cooperstown after throwing spitters for years...

[SeaBass]

I’d think this will affect Beltran’s HoF chances, at least in the short term. Cheating is cheating and if you are going to keep the steroid guys out for one version ...

 

They let Gaylord Perry enter Cooperstown after throwing spitters for years...

That's an interesting point, but do you think Sammy Sosa would be in the HoF right now if the worst thing he'd done was get caught using a corked bat? I think he would be. He's not in because of his connection to PEDs. I think the old school forms of cheating, spitters, scuffed balls, pine tar, etc. are viewed the same as the old school no-tech versions of stealing signs. Maybe not viewed quite the same, traditional forms of sign stealing I feel is a little more accepted and there's probably not a level of shame to getting "caught" doing it as there is for that other stuff, but it's in the same ballpark in my mind.

 

I think this goes above and beyond those techniques, especially because it can be directly tied to using those techniques in a World Series. Twice. I don't know that I've heard of any other cheating scandal directly tied to a World Series other than the Black Sox scandal and those dudes suffered big penalties.

[3and2Fastball]

It’s one thing to be the 1919 White Sox and intentionally lose the World Series because of ties to organized crime and gambling. Trying to win the World Series by cheating is an entirely different thing.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Nah, no sympathy for Hinch, not after this:

 

"And in reality it’s a joke. But Major League Baseball does a lot to ensure the fairness of the game. There’s people everywhere. If you go through the dugouts and the clubhouses and the hallways, there’s like so many people around that are doing this,” Hinch said in a diatribe after being asked about the reports.

 

"And then when I get contacted about some questions about whistling, it made me laugh because it’s ridiculous. And had I known that it would take something like that to set off the Yankees or any other team, we would have practiced it in Spring Training. And we would have got — it apparently works, even when it doesn’t happen.

 

There’s nothing going on other than the competition on the field. The fact that I had to field the question before a really, really cool game at Yankee Stadium is unfortunate. But we can put it to rest. That will be the last question I answer about pitch tipping or pitch stealing.”

 

That's going awfully far out of your way to defend something you're supposedly so staunchly against.

[JosephC]

The more I think about it, the more it just seems ridiculous that no player was punished for any of this.

 

Not really buying the immunity aspect of this. How many players have not been willing to talk to MLB about impending domestic violence suspensions?

 

Seems more likely that lengthy suspensions for what would probably be a dozen players has the potential to really turn off fans in that area (likely would have to rotate suspensions as to not leave the Astros too short-handed, and could very well last for over half the season). And lower ticket sales and less TV viewing in the 8th biggest market certainly has a chance to put a small dent in MLB's big revenue machine. Yeah, they will scapegoat some front-office guys...those guys don't impact the bottom line so they are completely expendable.

 

And then there is always the aspect of upcoming CBA negotiations. Don't upset that apple-cart now.

 

Also, I have little doubt that several other teams (maybe all) are engaged in this same behavior at one level or another, so suspending players now would set precedent and MLB probably shakes at the thought of having massive suspensions impact several big market teams at once.

 

In the name of $ it's obviously just best to scape-goat some insignificant front office guy and let the players continue to make more money.

 

To think that any commissioner in any of the "big-money" sports truly has the "good of the game" at heart is a complete and total joke at this point. Would definitely prefer that the term commissioner be retired and be replaced with "head of the owner's fraternity" or something along those lines.

[Soupbone]

So does anyone know anything about the twitter guy at Brewer World. Sending out a note that Stearns could be interested in the Houston job? Legit?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The player suspensions are just not realistic. You're not punishing the Astros then, you're punishing teams these guys play for today. You could probably make an argument for suspending the entire roster then. What player is going to come forward and tattle on the team in the middle of the season? Nobody that wants to play for more than a cup of coffee. I just can't see that being a reasonable thing. The only realistic punishment is the one they doled out, the people in charge who put this in motion.

[KeithStone53151]

 

I find the connection of Stearns to this incredibly surprising considering the Astros front office was not at all involved. It's not like luhnow created and streamlined this system. All he did was bury his head in the sand so the players could do it.

 

Nor did the FO play a part in this.

 

Honestly, I kind of feel bad for them after reading that. Imagine working your lives for this opportunity and wanting to stand on the top of the baseball world on merit and watching people around you run rogue. Do you quit this high paying dream job because you can't get in front of it? Do you speak out and get yourself blacklisted, and risk your entire career? Do you can Cora and watch a revolt? That's a horrible place to be put in.

 

Put me in that position and I'd be besides myself. I'd be destroyed by the notion that I have to throw away what I worked to earn so that I could have a clean conscience because I can't stop what's going on around me. In the end, these guys take the fall anyway.

 

This is part of what comes with being a GM. It's no different in any other business. If a small contingent of lower level employees of a random publicly traded company were to cook the books, and it later got caught by auditors or a governing body, the CEO and CFO would be fired and probably go to prison...even if they legitimately knew nothing. It's part of what they sign up for when they take the job, they are accountable for actions of those beneath them. Of course, in said scenario...the low level employees(or the Astros players in this case) would get punished as well.

 

It definitely seems like Hinch/Luhnow got a raw deal on this, and it annoys the heck out of me that the players that actually cheated don't even get a slap on the wrist. But both of them could have easily put a stop to it if they wanted to...especially after the September 15th memo to teams after the Red Sox thing. And I'm buying that Luhnow knew nothing less and less. I don't buy that he's never walked through the dugout and seen that monitor. My guess is he actively chose to look the other way. I still completely doubt he was involved at all, but he knew...or maybe had some idea that something fishy was going on but intentionally ignored it. Sorry dude, when you're a GM that's not gonna fly.

 

One other tidbit, I get annoyed by national writers saying how it's weird that the owner who knew nothing didn't get punished...while the GM who knew nothing got punished. Last I checked, his team lost 4 top draft picks and got fined 5 million(which more or less comes straight out of his pocket)...and he needs to replace a GM and manager among other critical staff. How many people are going to be lining up for that GM job? Do you think Matt Arnold would want that opportunity? Or would he wait for a less tainted opportunity? I have a hard time believing the owner will be able to get the very best GM prospects to consider this role. Point being, he was pretty thorougly punished...just not as directly as Luhnow/Hinch.

[KeithStone53151]

One other random thought. Is there any chance some players take offense and we see some ST bean ball wars? Especially teams like the Yankees, Dodgers, and other divisional teams.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't care if you're the manager of a McDonalds, a Baseball team, or a warehouse, you're responsible for the conduct of the people who work beneath you. If people are doing stuff they shouldn't do, and you know it, and don't stop it, and you're "the boss", your're ultimately responsible.

 

Luhnow might not have known, but Hinch did, and busting up a monitor isn't the same as saying "we can't and won't continue this".

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Frankly the idea that he busted a monitor because it was so immoral all seems a bit theatrical. MLB people break stuff all the time. That monitor could have been smashed by any angry person walking down the hallway because of a strikeout.

 

Awfully hard for me to reconcile him supposedly hating it that much with completely gaslighting the questions about cheating. You could Belichick and just say "next" and it would have aged better than what he said.

[jerichoholicninja]

Can anyone please explain what "taking the title away" would do or even means? I see it all the time and it accomplishes nothing. I guess take away the banners and the trophy but the players and front office people still have rings, they still have memories of it happening. The franchise still reaped gobs of money from winning it. I suppose a bunch of sports writers and people on the internet feel vindicated but what a stupid thing to do.

 

Also, no players getting suspended or fined is a joke. On the surface, MLB looks like they took a firm stance but not really. They took the easy route and punished the two easiest people they could. In terms of guiltiest parties, Luhnow probably doesn't even make the top 25. And how Carlos Beltran gets nothing out of this is mind boggling. The supposed mastermind gets off scot-free and can be a manager while Hinch gets suspended and fired and Cora almost certainly gets suspended and fired. This is almost NFL level botching.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I guess I don't agree. I think they got it mostly right. I would've stripped the title but I never thought it would happen.

 

Stripping the title is mostly ceremonious, but in the pros I think it can be significant. You can't use that title in any promotional material or merchandise going forward.

[KeithStone53151]

Also, no players getting suspended or fined is a joke. On the surface, MLB looks like they took a firm stance but not really. They took the easy route and punished the two easiest people they could. In terms of guiltiest parties, Luhnow probably doesn't even make the top 25. And how Carlos Beltran gets nothing out of this is mind boggling. The supposed mastermind gets off scot-free and can be a manager while Hinch gets suspended and fired and Cora almost certainly gets suspended and fired. This is almost NFL level botching.

 

Excellent take, I especially like your point that I bolded.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Can anyone please explain what "taking the title away" would do or even means? I see it all the time and it accomplishes nothing. I guess take away the banners and the trophy but the players and front office people still have rings, they still have memories of it happening. The franchise still reaped gobs of money from winning it. I suppose a bunch of sports writers and people on the internet feel vindicated but what a stupid thing to do.

 

 

This I agree with. People still refer to Reggie Bush as a Heisman winner. No amount of sanitizing the past will change the fact that he won the Heisman. Just like USC was the 2004 National Champion.

 

You can't go back and award a title to the team that lost the games. You think the Dodgers want a trophy they didn't earn? I'm sure they are furious that they lost it to a team that was cheating, but I'm sure they don't want a WS trophy just handed to them after the fact.

 

Vacating it is even dumber (IMO). Everyone knows the Astros won. Suspend who you're going to suspend, and learn from it, and the sport has to move on. You can't pretend the 2017 WS didn't happen.

[bigredrobbo]

As manager and GM, Hinch and Luhnow had to go. Either they were (a) complicit in the scheme, or (b) unaware of the very things they NEED to be aware of, as leaders of the team. I simply don't buy that 25 players, plus additional coaches like Cora, could have kept what was happening a complete secret from Hinch and Luhnow. Their "not my fault" statements yesterday ring hollow.

[areacodes]

In the name of $ it's obviously just best to scape-goat some insignificant front office guy and let the players continue to make more money.

 

I’d argue the GM isn’t some insignificant front office guy. They are a pretty big part of the organization.

[3and2Fastball]

It’s been quite the offseason for the Yankees. First they sign Cole. Now all of this is happening to the Astros, and potentially worse is about to happen to Cora and the Red Sox.

[xisxisxis]

I guess I don't agree. I think they got it mostly right. I would've stripped the title but I never thought it would happen.

 

Stripping the title is mostly ceremonious, but in the pros I think it can be significant. You can't use that title in any promotional material or merchandise going forward.

I also agree that they got it mostly right. My issue is how they handled Beltran, I think they should have emphasized his role and taken a strike away from him so that the next violation would be a lifetime ban. That way they don't punish a player, but he does end up with a consequence (1 strike not 2).

[sveumrules]

Also, no players getting suspended or fined is a joke. On the surface, MLB looks like they took a firm stance but not really. They took the easy route and punished the two easiest people they could. In terms of guiltiest parties, Luhnow probably doesn't even make the top 25. And how Carlos Beltran gets nothing out of this is mind boggling. The supposed mastermind gets off scot-free and can be a manager while Hinch gets suspended and fired and Cora almost certainly gets suspended and fired. This is almost NFL level botching.

 

Excellent take, I especially like your point that I bolded.

 

Right. Neither of Hinch or Luhnow were protected under a collectively bargained agreement like the players are, so they were magnitudes easier to punish.

 

From what I understand, the 2017 memo that Manfred sent out also specifically stated that general & field managers would be held accountable for subsequent violations.

[homer]

So does anyone know anything about the twitter guy at Brewer World. Sending out a note that Stearns could be interested in the Houston job? Legit?

 

Yes. He's a troll account.

[Tbadder]

I’d guess this issue of player punishment gets resolved in the next CBA negotiations. It doesn’t seem practical now given how complex and drawn out the investigations would be. It’s an easy “give” the players can turnover to MLB in exchange for some monetary advantage.

[xisxisxis]

Maybe MLB should embrace technology. Have the Catcher, Manager, Pitcher, and 1st/3rd base coaches with headsets to relay pitches/fielding and then there's no need for a complex set of signs that other teams can steal.

 

Wait until the first team hacks into the robot umpires and widens the strike zones of their opponents and shrinks their batters zones... it's coming...