NFC Conference Championship: Packers @ 49ers Sunday, Jan 19th, 5:40PM

[OldSchoolSnapper]

What evidence is there that he's not? He just threw for 4k yards, 26/4 in a new offense with 1 WR. I mean, their #2 WR was cut on August 31 and signed to the practice squad.

 

There's a distinction between top 10 statistical QBs for 2019 and top 10 QBs in the NFL. I think anyone claiming Rodgers isn't in the top 10 is being overly cynical. He was 20th in QBR one spot behind Baker Mayfield. Do we really believe there are 19 better QBs? You'd rather go to war with Daniel Jones and Ryan Tannehill?

 

I'd say these are the guys clearly ahead of him:

 

Lamar Jackson

Mahomes

Wilson

Watson

 

After those four it's just a mish-mash of guys that might be better but might not be. Cousins had a better season. Dak Prescott had a better season. I mean Matthew Stafford was 6th in QBR. I'd say that right now, he's probably somewhere in 6-8th.

 

Rodgers is somewhere between the delusional "He's still the best" and "He's over the hill and it's time to draft a QB". They need a WR and he can't create plays with his legs like he used to. They can still win a Super Bowl with him. Definitively stating he's no longer a top 10 QB like none of the other things going on have hurt his production strikes me as a bit over the top.

[adambr2]

I see no reason why the Packers would give up on MVS or St. Brown at this point, but it's an important camp for both next year, I'd think.

 

But the WR room does need legit infusion of talent. I'd like to see at least a 2nd devoted to the position, as it's a super deep WR draft, and a solid vet brought in to be the 2/3. Cooper is the dream, but that's probably unrealistic.

 

I see plenty of possibility that neither is back. This was the important year for both and is why we proceeded with the WR group we had and that proved to be a mistake.

 

I think Lazard will be back as maybe a #4 and Kumerow as a #5. Allison for sure is history. I think taking a WR high and maybe adding a veteran like Cobb makes sense this offseason for our 2 and 3. Smart money says one is back but I could us moving on from MVS and ESB both.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Wow, if Rodgers isn't even a top 10 QB anymore, it makes me feel even better about the team that Gute has put around him. It takes one heck of a team to go 14-4 with mediocre QB play.

 

The truth is, it is probably somewhere in between. Rodgers is still an high-end QB, but he isn't the otherworldly player he was in those prime 2009-2014 years. He's where Brady was roughly a decade ago, when the Patriots decided to go out and acquire elite skill position talent. The Packers can maintain the status quo, and probably get 3-4 more years of solid QB play and playoff appearances out of Rodgers. But to truly make this a dangerous team, they need to find more weapons. That's what makes this such a huge offseason for Gute.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not so sure as I initially thought they'd both been in the league one year longer than they have. Giving up on WRs after 2 seasons is pretty tough, unless they actually believe those guys don't have it, which may be the case. There's not much difference production wise between MVS and Adams first two years in the league. Granted that Adams had far more barriers to entry, but year 3 for a WR is usually a critical one.

 

Allison is gone. He might need to get a normal dude job next year. He was terrible. Kumerow is a nice story, but he's 28 years old. I think they add somebody, bring Lazard back, and one of MVS and ESB gets a final shot. Possibly both.

[JohnBriggs12]

I think Mike Pettine might be the fall guy for a defense that was helpless against the run at times. Heck Detroit ran all over them in the regular season finale. Eagles ran all over them too, and that game was only close because Eagles didn't stick with it as much as 49ers did. Though I have to question the talent level in the DL when you have two starters from average Northwestern teams and they rely on Martinez to be all over the field.

 

One season doesn't make a head coach either. Lindy Infante for example. Infante was an offensive guru but his teams didn't play hard and it showed. This Packer team despite it's record played soft far too often.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I see no reason why the Packers would give up on MVS or St. Brown at this point, but it's an important camp for both next year, I'd think.

 

But the WR room does need legit infusion of talent. I'd like to see at least a 2nd devoted to the position, as it's a super deep WR draft, and a solid vet brought in to be the 2/3. Cooper is the dream, but that's probably unrealistic.

 

I see plenty of possibility that neither is back. This was the important year for both and is why we proceeded with the WR group we had and that proved to be a mistake.

 

I think Lazard will be back as maybe a #4 and Kumerow as a #5. Allison for sure is history. I think taking a WR high and maybe adding a veteran like Cobb makes sense this offseason for our 2 and 3. Smart money says one is back but I could us moving on from MVS and ESB both.

 

MVS's disappearing act in the 2nd half of the season would be some justification for moving on from him, but I doubt they just cut bait on him unless they decide to totally remake that WR room. St. Brown stands even less of a chance of being let go, though. Of the 3 WRs they drafted, he probably looked the most complete in 2018, and obviously 2019 was lost to injury. He isn't going anywhere. I mean, what would be your justification for moving on from him?

[OldSchoolSnapper]

If they upgrade the position enough I could see him getting cut. When Allen Lazard takes your job it's not a good sign. You figure he and Adams are safe and if they do sign a FA you're down the 4th spot. I think he probably makes it, but what if they sign a FA and pick someone early?

[torts]

What evidence is there that he's not? He just threw for 4k yards, 26/4 in a new offense with 1 WR. I mean, their #2 WR was cut on August 31 and signed to the practice squad.

 

There's a distinction between top 10 statistical QBs for 2019 and top 10 QBs in the NFL. I think anyone claiming Rodgers isn't in the top 10 is being overly cynical. He was 20th in QBR one spot behind Baker Mayfield. Do we really believe there are 19 better QBs? You'd rather go to war with Daniel Jones and Ryan Tannehill?

 

I'd say these are the guys clearly ahead of him:

 

Lamar Jackson

Mahomes

Wilson

Watson

 

After those four it's just a mish-mash of guys that might be better but might not be. Cousins had a better season. Dak Prescott had a better season. I mean Matthew Stafford was 6th in QBR. I'd say that right now, he's probably somewhere in 6-8th.

 

Rodgers is somewhere between the delusional "He's still the best" and "He's over the hill and it's time to draft a QB". They need a WR and he can't create plays with his legs like he used to. They can still win a Super Bowl with him. Definitively stating he's no longer a top 10 QB like none of the other things going on have hurt his production strikes me as a bit over the top.

 

also remember, QBR is an ESPN generated stat that is not even 7 years old with its current calculation, and gave Charlie Batch the greatest score possible in a game where he threw 180 yards and 2 INT. So lets not put too much stock in that stat over anything else

[adambr2]

I see no reason why the Packers would give up on MVS or St. Brown at this point, but it's an important camp for both next year, I'd think.

 

But the WR room does need legit infusion of talent. I'd like to see at least a 2nd devoted to the position, as it's a super deep WR draft, and a solid vet brought in to be the 2/3. Cooper is the dream, but that's probably unrealistic.

 

I see plenty of possibility that neither is back. This was the important year for both and is why we proceeded with the WR group we had and that proved to be a mistake.

 

I think Lazard will be back as maybe a #4 and Kumerow as a #5. Allison for sure is history. I think taking a WR high and maybe adding a veteran like Cobb makes sense this offseason for our 2 and 3. Smart money says one is back but I could us moving on from MVS and ESB both.

 

MVS's disappearing act in the 2nd half of the season would be some justification for moving on from him, but I doubt they just cut bait on him unless they decide to totally remake that WR room. St. Brown stands even less of a chance of being let go, though. Of the 3 WRs they drafted, he probably looked the most complete in 2018, and obviously 2019 was lost to injury. He isn't going anywhere. I mean, what would be your justification for moving on from him?

 

My justification would be that he's a 6th round pick with 21 catches and 328 yards in 12 games over 2 seasons in his professional career and we improved the WR room enough to keep him on the outside looking in. It's not hard to justify. It wouldn't be like giving up on Davante Adams after 2 seasons. St. Brown might be back, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

[MrTPlush]

They rolled the dice on young inexperienced WRs this year and it was a total failure. You gotta go out and get one vet you can count on and probably spend on early pick for another guy. The later may not make a huge impact next year, but it is still a problem position long term.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

My justification would be that he's a 6th round pick with 21 catches and 328 yards in 12 games over 2 seasons in his professional career and we improved the WR room enough to keep him on the outside looking in. It's not hard to justify. It wouldn't be like giving up on Davante Adams after 2 seasons. St. Brown might be back, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

So you're going to give up on the guy because he lost a season due to injury? And yeah, 21 catches and 328 yards as a rookie 6th round pick is a good thing, not the bad thing you seem to be making it out as.

[adambr2]

 

My justification would be that he's a 6th round pick with 21 catches and 328 yards in 12 games over 2 seasons in his professional career and we improved the WR room enough to keep him on the outside looking in. It's not hard to justify. It wouldn't be like giving up on Davante Adams after 2 seasons. St. Brown might be back, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

So you're going to give up on the guy because he lost a season due to injury? And yeah, 21 catches and 328 yards as a rookie 6th round pick is a good thing, not the bad thing you seem to be making it out as.

 

If the talent around him improves enough to push him off the depth chart, then yeah.

 

He's got talent, but it's a 6th round pick. Jeff Janis had talent. Jared Abbrederis had talent. Trevor Davis had talent. J'Mon Moore had talent. Late round WRs with "talent" are a dime a dozen. ESB is a guy you can certainly invite to training camp and see what happens, but there's nothing special about him where you pencil him into the depth chart for 2020.

 

The last thing we need is for our WR room in '20 to become a repeat of '19.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

My justification would be that he's a 6th round pick with 21 catches and 328 yards in 12 games over 2 seasons in his professional career and we improved the WR room enough to keep him on the outside looking in. It's not hard to justify. It wouldn't be like giving up on Davante Adams after 2 seasons. St. Brown might be back, but it's not a foregone conclusion.

 

So you're going to give up on the guy because he lost a season due to injury? And yeah, 21 catches and 328 yards as a rookie 6th round pick is a good thing, not the bad thing you seem to be making it out as.

 

If the talent around him improves enough to push him off the depth chart, then yeah.

 

He's got talent, but it's a 6th round pick. Jeff Janis had talent. Jared Abbrederis had talent. Trevor Davis had talent. J'Mon Moore had talent. Late round WRs with "talent" are a dime a dozen. ESB is a guy you can certainly invite to training camp and see what happens, but there's nothing special about him where you pencil him into the depth chart for 2020.

 

The last thing we need is for our WR room in '20 to become a repeat of '19.

 

I mean, I get the need to upgrade talent on the roster, but I think there's simply no way that they are going to tear things down to the level you seem to be advocating. And there is only so many high draft picks and free agent dollars to go around for upgrades as well. They are going to have to really pick and choose where the most obvious weaknesses are.

 

I expect higher quality depth, but the 2020-21 roster is going to have plenty of flyers on it too.

[xisxisxis]

The last thing we need is for our WR room in '20 to become a repeat of '19.

When Adams was hurt our offense looked the best of any time this season. There is talent at the WR spot.

 

The issue is with how the offense is orchestrated with Adams. When Adams is on the field they just don't get the best form the talent. It's not his fault, there's room for a lot better performance from the OC/HC and QB utilizing the talent they have.

 

Edit: Yes we need more talent at the WR level, but we also need to drastically improve in how we utilize the talent.

[adambr2]

I don't think I'm advocating a tear down. I think we'll draft a WR high and add a pretty decent one in free agency. Maybe take another late one as a project guy. That's three additions, minimum of two. Adams is obviously back and I think Lazard did enough to be pretty safe. That leaves one or two spots for Kumerow, MVS and ESB. I think Rodgers has a pretty good relationship with Kumerow which factors in, I see him as an ideal #5 receiver. They're certainly not going to keep more than 6 receivers I wouldn't think.

 

At some point, it becomes a numbers game. MVS had his shot to shine this year and didn't do enough. Maybe ESB gets the benefit of the doubt because of the injury but late round receivers aren't really guaranteed that benefit. Again if I'm a betting man I'd expect one, but not both of MVS and ESB back in 2020. But I wouldn't see it as a big surprise if neither were.

[thebruce44]

What evidence is there that he's not? He just threw for 4k yards, 26/4 in a new offense with 1 WR. I mean, their #2 WR was cut on August 31 and signed to the practice squad.

 

There's a distinction between top 10 statistical QBs for 2019 and top 10 QBs in the NFL. I think anyone claiming Rodgers isn't in the top 10 is being overly cynical. He was 20th in QBR one spot behind Baker Mayfield. Do we really believe there are 19 better QBs? You'd rather go to war with Daniel Jones and Ryan Tannehill?

 

I'd say these are the guys clearly ahead of him:

 

Lamar Jackson

Mahomes

Wilson

Watson

 

After those four it's just a mish-mash of guys that might be better but might not be. Cousins had a better season. Dak Prescott had a better season. I mean Matthew Stafford was 6th in QBR. I'd say that right now, he's probably somewhere in 6-8th.

 

Rodgers is somewhere between the delusional "He's still the best" and "He's over the hill and it's time to draft a QB". They need a WR and he can't create plays with his legs like he used to. They can still win a Super Bowl with him. Definitively stating he's no longer a top 10 QB like none of the other things going on have hurt his production strikes me as a bit over the top.

 

What evidence do you have that our WRs are as bad as everyone says they are? I'm tired of this narrative. I see Lazar and Kumerow make athletic plays all over the field when they get a target. If they are so bad that they can't properly run a route and then don't deserve targets they should be cut. Every other team is capable of fielding a WR corps and we have a QB that used to be able to spread the ball around.

 

And let me clarify my argument about Rodgers. Do I not think he was a top 10 QB in the 2019 regular season. I do not expect him to be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes made. Do I think he is one of the best 10 QBs in football currently- yes, without a doubt. But the results were not there and will not be there if we do the exact same thing next year.

[pacopete4]

Please name the 10 QBs you believe are above him.

[adambr2]

What evidence is there that he's not? He just threw for 4k yards, 26/4 in a new offense with 1 WR. I mean, their #2 WR was cut on August 31 and signed to the practice squad.

 

There's a distinction between top 10 statistical QBs for 2019 and top 10 QBs in the NFL. I think anyone claiming Rodgers isn't in the top 10 is being overly cynical. He was 20th in QBR one spot behind Baker Mayfield. Do we really believe there are 19 better QBs? You'd rather go to war with Daniel Jones and Ryan Tannehill?

 

I'd say these are the guys clearly ahead of him:

 

Lamar Jackson

Mahomes

Wilson

Watson

 

After those four it's just a mish-mash of guys that might be better but might not be. Cousins had a better season. Dak Prescott had a better season. I mean Matthew Stafford was 6th in QBR. I'd say that right now, he's probably somewhere in 6-8th.

 

Rodgers is somewhere between the delusional "He's still the best" and "He's over the hill and it's time to draft a QB". They need a WR and he can't create plays with his legs like he used to. They can still win a Super Bowl with him. Definitively stating he's no longer a top 10 QB like none of the other things going on have hurt his production strikes me as a bit over the top.

 

What evidence do you have that our WRs are as bad as everyone says they are? I'm tired of this narrative. I see Lazar and Kumerow make athletic plays all over the field when they get a target. If they are so bad that they can't properly run a route and then don't deserve targets they should be cut. Every other team is capable of fielding a WR corps and we have a QB that used to be able to spread the ball around.

 

And let me clarify my argument about Rodgers. Do I not think he was a top 10 QB in the 2019 regular season. I do not expect him to be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes made. Do I think he is one of the best 10 QBs in football currently- yes, without a doubt. But the results were not there and will not be there if we do the exact same thing next year.

 

If you think Rodgers without a doubt is one of the top 10 best QBs in football but you also think our WRs are good enough, that doesn't really jive.

 

You say he won't be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes, that's fair. What do you think needs to change?

[thebruce44]

What evidence is there that he's not? He just threw for 4k yards, 26/4 in a new offense with 1 WR. I mean, their #2 WR was cut on August 31 and signed to the practice squad.

 

There's a distinction between top 10 statistical QBs for 2019 and top 10 QBs in the NFL. I think anyone claiming Rodgers isn't in the top 10 is being overly cynical. He was 20th in QBR one spot behind Baker Mayfield. Do we really believe there are 19 better QBs? You'd rather go to war with Daniel Jones and Ryan Tannehill?

 

I'd say these are the guys clearly ahead of him:

 

Lamar Jackson

Mahomes

Wilson

Watson

 

After those four it's just a mish-mash of guys that might be better but might not be. Cousins had a better season. Dak Prescott had a better season. I mean Matthew Stafford was 6th in QBR. I'd say that right now, he's probably somewhere in 6-8th.

 

Rodgers is somewhere between the delusional "He's still the best" and "He's over the hill and it's time to draft a QB". They need a WR and he can't create plays with his legs like he used to. They can still win a Super Bowl with him. Definitively stating he's no longer a top 10 QB like none of the other things going on have hurt his production strikes me as a bit over the top.

 

What evidence do you have that our WRs are as bad as everyone says they are? I'm tired of this narrative. I see Lazar and Kumerow make athletic plays all over the field when they get a target. If they are so bad that they can't properly run a route and then don't deserve targets they should be cut. Every other team is capable of fielding a WR corps and we have a QB that used to be able to spread the ball around.

 

And let me clarify my argument about Rodgers. Do I not think he was a top 10 QB in the 2019 regular season. I do not expect him to be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes made. Do I think he is one of the best 10 QBs in football currently- yes, without a doubt. But the results were not there and will not be there if we do the exact same thing next year.

 

If you think Rodgers without a doubt is one of the top 10 best QBs in football but you also think our WRs are good enough, that doesn't really jive.

You say he won't be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes, that's fair. What do you think needs to change?

 

This isn't the hill I want to die on, but I don't think I am making an illogical argument that Rodgers still has the talent and mental makeup that would put him within the top 10 QBs in the NFL and that our WR corps is better than the stats they put up this year. I don't believe it is an either-or (Rodgers sucks or the WRs suck, but both cannot be better than the results). There are tons of other variables that could be in play like scheme, competition, in game adjustments, injury, etc.

[thebruce44]

Please name the 10 QBs you believe are above him.

 

Given that I clarified my position: "And let me clarify my argument about Rodgers. Do I not think he was a top 10 QB in the 2019 regular season. I do not expect him to be a top 10 QB in 2020 without some changes made. Do I think he is one of the best 10 QBs in football currently- yes, without a doubt. But the results were not there and will not be there if we do the exact same thing next year."

 

here is that list as requested based on DVOA. I don't get to watch as much football as I used to, but it would seem that most statistical analysis and counting stats would place Rodger's below this group, with some obvious exceptions like Bridgewater. Either way, I assume you get the point that I am making.

 

 

Player Team DYAR Rk YAR Rk DVOA Rk ▾ VOA QBR Rk Pass Yards EYds TD FK FL INT C% DPI ALEX

D.Brees NO 1,324 2 1,345 3 40.1% 1 40.9% 71.8 3 385 2,882 3,884 27 0 0 4 75.5% 6/71 0.9

L.Jackson BAL 1,272 5 1,248 4 35.3% 2 34.4% 81.7 1 422 3,021 3,937 36 0 0 6 66.4% 2/73 1.5

P.Mahomes KC 1,322 3 1,361 2 30.0% 3 31.3% 76.4 2 501 3,901 4,384 26 0 2 5 66.0% 7/98 1.5

M.Stafford DET 776 10 846 8 28.8% 4 32.4% 70.2 5 307 2,360 2,622 19 1 2 5 64.7% 2/57 2.3

R.Tannehill TEN 777 9 763 11 28.1% 5 27.4% 62.5 9 315 2,529 2,649 22 3 3 6 71.0% 3/79 2.9

D.Prescott DAL 1,546 1 1,570 1 27.2% 6 27.8% 70.6 4 619 4,732 5,341 30 3 2 9 65.3% 6/97 2.1

R.Wilson SEA 1,297 4 1,105 5 25.2% 7 19.8% 69.8 6 561 3,789 4,643 31 3 1 5 66.5% 5/99 3.6

D.Carr OAK 1,074 6 1,056 6 18.9% 8 18.4% 62.4 10 540 3,859 4,337 21 2 0 8 70.9% 5/92 1.3

T.Bridgewater NO 345 20 337 19 15.7% 9 15.1% 48.6 24 208 1,283 1,506 9 1 0 2 68.2% 1/3 -1.5

K.Cousins MIN 801 7 881 7 14.5% 10 17.1% 58.7 13 476 3,374 3,605 26 6 3 6 69.3% 8/115 2.4

J.Garoppolo SF 737 12 772 10 11.2% 11 12.3% 58.8 12 513 3,728 3,658 27 3 5 13 69.4% 10/116 -0.2

D.Watson HOU 725 13 653 14 9.6% 12 7.5% 68.9 7 538 3,580 3,803 26 3 3 12 67.7% 2/10 1.3

[adambr2]

I know I'll be crucified for saying it, and I know it will never happen, but if a team like the Chargers came around and offered their next 3 to 4 first round picks for Rodgers, I'd pull the trigger and start over.

[PeaveyFury]

Matt Stafford? David Carr? Ryan Tannehill?

 

Sorry, I don't see it...

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Every NFL receiver is capable of making plays with an accurate pass. It's the things that you can't see in real time that separate average and good WRs. First moves, just knowing how to get open without necessary raw athletic ability. If it were that easy every 4.3 40 guy would make it as a WR. None of the guys not named Adams can do that, they simply don't create their own plays. They don't have the chemistry with the QB.

 

Rodgers had been throwing to Nelson, Driver, Jones, Cobb and Jennings in practice for YEARS. Adams was given space to develop behind that group of guys, but he was still getting reps with Rodgers.

 

Two weeks ago Rodgers made a comment about Adams having the kind of communication Nelson had, where they can literally walk up to the line without saying a word and they know what the other is thinking. That's just not something you're going to get with Allen Lazard and Jake Kumerow. Lazard is promising 4th WR who may develop into more than that, but this year that's what he was.

 

If you think their WR group wasn't a problem at all this year then we're so far apart there's really no point. It's obvious they bet on MVS/ESB making a leap and got burned. But even if these guys are better than we think, there's simply an enormous time aspect to this that isn't getting enough attention.

 

Everyone is panicking because Rodgers isn't getting younger, but this WR group just has not had the reps necessary to be a big-time group, especially with ESB getting hurt. I think this is the reason Allison kept getting second chances. Rodgers liked him and they had nobody else with the reps.

[homer]

I think another season of experience in the offense will help matters. Matt Ryan went from QB rating of 89 to a QB rating of 117 in the second year in the same system.

[FVBrewerFan]

I know I'll be crucified for saying it, and I know it will never happen, but if a team like the Chargers came around and offered their next 3 to 4 first round picks for Rodgers, I'd pull the trigger and start over.

 

I would be open to that. It would clear up a ton of cap space plus multiple 1st round picks? Sure, I would consider that. Problem is, of course, it's impossible due to the $40MM dead cap hit the Packers would take next season if they did that.