Is this Goose Gossage's year?

[J Brew Crew1]

sports.espn.go.com/mlb/co...id=2272958

 

I always thought Goose deserved to be in the Hall of Fame. I could just be that when I was young and impressionable, he was dominant. Bob Klapisch of espn has some stats that made me think that maybe I wasn't blinded by youth and hero worship. Even with the favorable comparisons to other great relievers, I don't think he gets in. The lack of votes that relievers have recieved makes me think he will fall short even this year with no slam dunk HOFer's.

 

J

 

1st time starting a topic so I'm not sure it's in the right spot or has been covered. Delete, move or lock as you see fit.

[splitterpfj]

Hi J Brew-

 

As a matter of fact, Gossage is the next in the Hall of Fame Trial series. I've sent the article to Brian, a new article just went up on the home page yesterday, so that one will be a few days.

 

Glad to see you're interested in Goose!

[splitterpfj]

If you haven't seen it, ESPN.com has been running a series of articles promoting various players for Hall of Fame election. I put links to the Rice, Blyleven and Sutter articles in their threads here. Check out the statistical analysis forum to see how their opinions compare to ours around here.

[reillymcshane]

Bert Blyleven: 242 complete games. wow. 60 Shutouts. Nearly as many as Clemons and Pedro combined. 5th highest Ks in history. One of the best names in Chris Berman goofy name history: Bert Be-Home-Blyleven, Dude rocks.

 

ESPN story on this

[splitterpfj]

Hi Reilly-

 

I completely agree, if I could only vote for one player on this year's ballot, it would be Blyleven.

 

Please read my last post in this thread, I had placed that link in the discussion thread for Blyleven, in the statistical analysis forum.

 

Here's a link to the Jim Rice discussion thread, there's a link to the recent ESPN article in my last post in the thread.

 

Bruce Sutter here.

[splitterpfj]

www.brewerfan.net/ViewArticle.do?articleId=227

 

The article is up, what's your take on Gossage?

[reillymcshane]

Mixed. I'm leaning no, but not totally positive.

[molitor fan]

I am guessing that the demographics on this will skew towards younger participants here saying no, and those over 30 saying yes.

 

I am one of the over 30 group, and to me it is not even a question, as Gossage was amongst the most dominant pitchers for a significant period of time....the game changed, as did the role of closer after his dominance faded, and those looking at stats only will probably not appreciate the full impact Gossage had on the game in the 70's and 80's.

[jwaltz]

I say a weak yes. It's hard to say yes or no with Goose. He is definately in a grey area.

[brettac1]

http://homepage.mac.com/antennantenna/blogwavestudio/LH20041114013926/LHA20050108154907/Media/LHA20050108154907_1_TN.jpg

?

 

I say no, just because for the most part I'm not a big fan of relievers in the Hall. He's definitely closer than a guy like Sutter or Lee Smith, but for me it's a no. It is odd that a guy that was a Yankee has taken this long to get in.

[JimH5]

I would vote no on Gossage.

 

I'll also note that his apex was during my late teens and early twenties, when I didn't care so much about baseball.

[bando1234]

I looked at Sutter & Gossage stats. While I am not big on a reliever in the Hall, they both have decent stats. They seem to be their own setup men too. Goose had some domitating years but many average years also. If I had to vote for Goose it would be no, but I would give a yes to Sutter.

[brettac1]

Player A: 1809.3 IP, 1502 K, 732 BB, 119 HR, 310 SV, 3.01 ERA, 126 ERA+, 5 seasons with 100+ IP, 1.232 WHIP, 1 World Series championship

 

Player B: 1043.3 IP, 379 K, 162 BB, 59 HR, 244 SV, 2.76 ERA, 146 ERA+, 5 seasons with 100+ IP, 1.175 WHIP, 1 World Series championship

 

Player A is the Goose. Player B?: LINK

 

This is the problem with relievers. So many of them are comparable, some are truly great, maybe Gossage is one of them. I don't really feel so, though.

[splitterpfj]

Maybe this will help. I threw out wins and losses, because that's not the point for this group the majority of the time, and I threw out saves because that's become a garbage stat in recent years. How effective were these guys?

 

How about this?

 

K/9 K/BB BF/IP ERA WHIP GF

6.87 2.64 4.08 2.90 1.15 709 Fingers

6.42 2.06 4.06 2.52 1.12 651 Wilhelm

7.47 2.05 4.14 3.01 1.23 681 Gossage

7.43 2.79 4.07 2.83 1.14 512 Sutter

8.73 2.57 4.17 3.03 1.25 802 Lee Smith

 

K/9= Strikeouts per 9 IP, K/BB= strikeouts per walk ratio BF/IP= Batters faced per inning pitched, WHIP= walks+hits per IP, GF= Games Finished

 

Personally, I'd take both Gossage and Sutter into the Hall, if I could only take one, it would be Bruce. The one obvious knock on Sutter is the short career, but these stats show him to be as good as any of these guys if you can get past the MUCH lower number of games.

 

Scoring this very simply, there are six stats there, among five players, giving 5 pts if the player was best in a category, one if he was worst, etc......

 

Sutter 21 pts, Wilhelm 20 pts, Fingers 19 pts, Smith 16 pts, Gossage 14 pts

 

I'm not saying this should determine anyone's vote, just trying to offer a frame of reference for the position.

[davego]

Outstanding post. I enjoyed the stat-line on those guys. Brings clarity to the issue.

[splitterpfj]

Thanks davego.

 

Looking at that table, Lee Smith does not move me at all, he's last in the group in three categories, he just does not strike me as great.

 

That table doesn't make Goose look overwhelming either, he's better than only Smith in three stats, and the only one even close to him at the bottom of K/BB was a knuckleballer.

 

If Sutter gets in (he came much closer than Goose did last year) take a look at Fingers, Wilhelm and Sutter in WHIP, batters per inning and ERA, you could start to establish some standards for the position.

 

I didn't bother to seperate out Dennis Eckersley's stats as a reliever, but remembering his terrific control, I'd bet he wouldn't help the cause of Gossage or Smith.

[Weirdos19]

To me, if any closer goes, it's Gossage.

 

The Goose is as good as any, even Eck.

 

But, say Lee Smith makes it. It will open the flood gates. Going by saves only will make them open a new wing in Cooperstown.

 

 

Guys like Trevor Hoffman and Riveira are no doubters. But, Aguilera, Quisenberry, Reardon, Franco, Henke, Thigpen, Montgomery, and Isringhausen will make it if number of saves gets closers in.

[davego]

Good point. Saevs are nice scoreboard stat but certainly do not indicate success, much like batting average.

[splitterpfj]

These are the supposed votes of writers who have written about their choices so far. Things look better for Sutter than for Goose, at least according to this sample.

 

www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/yesnetwork_pepe4/