ARTICLE: Hall of Fame Trial - Mark McGwire

[Brian the Automator]

Article and Poll are both available on the home page...

[splitterpfj]

Ok guys, this debate is a bit different. This one isn't so much about numbers, it's about what's ok and what's not for the super sluggers of the last fifteen years.

 

What do you think?

 

-Todd

[zingsheim]

I think It's pretty obvious that he used steroids, and my view is that steroids are cheating and shuld exclude you from the hall. Pete Rose can't be in for gambling, so why should steroid uses be in?

[temke]

i think this is a tough one. you have to differentiate between guys we know juiced (through admission or positive tests) and those who we suspect.

 

i think mcgwire is the latter. though his "i am not here to talk about the past" thing and his dealings with andro (which was legal at the time) make us think one way, he has never physically admitted to using illegal steroids.

 

this becomes a question of who you believe. lots of people want to say that barry bonds or another slugger was on steroids, but will we ever have empirical evidence? probably not?

 

what do we do with those guys? assume or give them the benefit of the doubt?

 

EDIT: posted at the same time as the last one. do we know for sure...at least as sure as we know about pete rose? rose admitted, mcgwire has not officially admitted. we all have our thoughts.

 

then it becomes a he said - he said fiasco. who to suspect and who not to

 

it seems obvious about mcgwire, but what about guys who are not as obvious?

[rluzinski]

We live in a society where a person is innocent until proven guilty. I can't see how the Hall of Fame wouldn't follow those same guidelines.

[princeginterhallhelms04]

McGwire is in the Hall of Fame like another poster said he is innocent till proven guilty and at this stage in the game it's a little hard to prove him guilty till he comes out and states the fact.

While i believe he might have taken steriods there is no proof and because of those facts i would vote him in.

[brettac1]

I agree with that sentiment. I voted yes because he never tested positive for steroids. The fact that he was never given the opportunity to test positive isn't his fault, it's MLB's.

[princeginterhallhelms04]

I agree with that sentiment. I voted yes because he never tested positive for steroids. The fact that he was never given the opportunity to test positive isn't his fault, it's MLB's.

 

You always seem to sum up my paragraphs with a couple sentences!

[colbyjack]

As much as I never liked the guy, and couldn't believe that he was voted to the All-Century team (talk about what have you done for me lately), he deserves to be in the Hall. I agree that he's innocent until proven guilty, but even if proven guilty I'm not sure I would suggest banning from the Hall similar to Pete Rose. There just isn't one way to quantify how much steroids affected what he did. I can see just saying "he cheated" and being done with it, and maybe that is how they progress from now on, and as noted with the original intent of this story, there will likely be several players we have this debate with.

[clancyphile]

I'm on the innocent till proven guilty. He did admit to using andro, which was legal. As such, there's no real case against him unless one wants to go to rumor-mongering and suspicion.

 

I'm even for allowing Rose into the Hall of Fame (but not while he is alive - lifetime ban means lifetime, not permanent).

[gregmag]

Me too. I especially echo Colby's point -- we need to have a serious and hopefully informed discussion about the effect of steroids on performance if we're going to talk about discounting people's achievements on this basis.

 

Greg.

[jwaltz]

I have to say yes. Innocent until proven guilty. Until he either admits or is proven guilty I have to let him in.

[EdgarDiazRocks]

Any former Anchorage Glacier Pilot gets a bye on any alledged drug use . . . .

 

In!!

 

http://www.glacierpilots.com/images/logo.pilots.GIF

[endaround]

Steroids and gambling are not the same thing. Gambling was forbidden by MLB, steroids were not. Yes steroids were illegal, but illegal actions never kept people out of the Hall otherwise good ol' Mollie would not have his plaque there.

[colbyjack]

Gambling was forbidden by MLB, steroids were not.

 

Actually, that is a misconception. There is a rule that states anything that is illegal in the United States is also forbidden in MLB. So while steroids weren't specifically mentioned as being a banned substance, they were under the umbrella.

 

But I agree with your point that illegal actions never kept people out of hte HOF, such as Molitor, and steroids should be no different (at least up to this time). If MLB wants to make a stipulation that third time steroid offenders are not only banned for life, but banned from the HOF (unless that is already implied), I could see if affecting a player's induction from now on. But not up until this point.

[Bikeage77]

I voted no, because of the roid usage. I hate the fact that voters are saying "I'll vote for him the second time, but he's not first ballot." Who cares if he's first ballot or 13th if he's in? People don't care about that kinda crap 30 years from now. The fact is, he's in, and he cheated majority of his career (if not all of it).

[Brian the Automator]

Mark McGwire was my favorite player from 1987 until he was traded to the Cardinals. After that, I really couldn't stand him.

 

While I and many other people suspect he was juicing, there's no conclusive proof that he used steroids. So, in my opinion, he belongs in the HOF... I see where everyone else is coming from, but I agree with rluz when he says innocent until proven guilty... Otherwise, you open up a big can of worms...

 

Luckily, going forward, this won't be an issue.

[The Mexican Weez]

So my question to all the "innocent until proven guilty" people, what if he did admit to steriod use? I say he's in when he's eligible (I am a "innocent unitl proven guilty person"). But if he admits to it, I am not so sure what to think. I guess I would feel cheated that the '98 hr chase was a fraud. I'm on the fence, but would lean towards letting him in anyway because like colby pointed out, what exactly are the mesuarble effects of steriod use? 70 HR?

 

Also remember we could have this same arguement with Barry Bonds, and even after the two of them, where do we draw the line? Clemens? Sosa? Sheffield? Griffey Jr? Schilling? Until news breaks on this, I vote yes.

[Brian the Automator]

If he admitted to cheating (taking steroids), I wouldn't let him in the HOF. However, he hasn't, so in he goes in my opinion.

[RedbirdRay]

I hate him. I would love to vote "no". But, would have to vote yes due to the issues stated above. No proof. He's a blackeye on the game of baseball and I can't stand him, but he's a HOF'er...at least right now.

[splitterpfj]

Until he comes clean, one way or the other, NO, NO, NO.

[pogokat]

I say yes...

 

I view the 90's as a steroid era...so, why not the king of the longball in the longball era???

 

I kinda think we have to view all the mashers from this period the same way we view Mcgwire...

 

so I say yes...though it may prove to be an ugly show over the next decade as these guys become eligible...

 

I guess Jose Canseco will give us our first glance as to how it will play out...

[colbyjack]

Hey Todd, my brother has been reading your HOF trial stories and wanted me to pass along his kudos while also adding a couple of suggestions: Richie Ashburn and Vern Stephens.

[brettac1]

How about Dick Allen, as well?

[SoCalBrewfan]

There's another issue with McGwire in my mind...peak value vs. career value. His peak is amazing...four seasons where he led the league in OPS+, another where he was 2nd, another where he would have been in the top 5 had he not been traded. But beyond that, he was 6th one year, and that's it. He was a major factor in the MVP balloting five times (finished 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th), and got a few votes five more times...I think he should have won in 1998 but he didn't.

 

He's 79th in career runs created, despite playing first base in the most offensive era since Babe Ruth. That reflects many games lost to injury over the years. (Manny Ramirez already has more career Runs Created.) Aside from HR (7th alltime) and walks (33rd all time), McGwire's best showing in career counting totals is 78th in RBI. (He is also 10th all-time in SLG, 79th in OBP). HR and walks are two pretty important categories, but his career counting stats are otherwise not at all HOF-worthy.

 

We may never know, but to me the question of how his games played might have been affected by PEDs is an interesting one...this is a guy who missed a tone of games between ages 29-32, and then played 150+ games a year ages 33-35, a time when he also chased home run records. Without that late-career renaissance, no one would talk about him as a Hall of Famer. Everyone talks about steroids and power, but steroids are also supposed to affect the way you heal...perhaps allowing an older player to avoid minor and/or major injuries that might otherwise keep him out of the lineup. Who knows, of course...my gut feeling is that he had chemical help in staying in the linup and hitting home runs, but that's just speculation and wouldn't hold up in a court of law.