3rd Base Candidates

[TURBO]

No one is forgetting how bad he was. Also, no one is really lauding this move. If Sogard can match what he did last year, he's a valuable reserve. That's a big if, though. If they signed him to start at 3B, I think most everyone would agree that is universally terrible. But as a utility IF and insurance for a young gun in Urias at SS and a terrible defender at 2B in Hiura, he's probably OK.

 

As a back up/reserve IF only, I'm not upset with this (but the cost was ridiculous) but we all know that CC will play him more than a back-up/reserve type guy. CC can't not play him, he sees himself in Sogard, and plays him far more innings than should be the case.

 

Lots of people in this very thread have "lauded" this move. If anyone criticizes any move the Brewers make, they are treated like fools. That attitude is getting old.

 

As fans, we are allowed to not like moves, and when that is the case, no one should be made to feel like idiots because they disagree with something.

 

As I have said before, people who constantly make negative posts are just as bad as those that think every move is brilliant.

[TURBO]

Great post. Sogard should be an expensive Hernan Perez and, much like Perez, I expect Counsell to give him way too many starts. Sogard should be the main backup to 3B, SS and 2B, start twice a week and that is all. With that being said, with Urias and Sogard, I really don't see the need for Arcia any longer and am confident he will be dealt at some point this offseason.

 

Orlando Arcia for Chris Archer

 

If Sogard starts two games a week, that is 2 games too many...

[PaulLeoMolitor]

If Sogard starts two games a week, that is 2 games too many...

 

I'm not a Sogard fan either, but this comment is just hating on someone to hate on someone. Championship teams still have role players like Sogard, and if he produce like he did last year, it makes this comment look even worse.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

No one is forgetting how bad he was. Also, no one is really lauding this move. If Sogard can match what he did last year, he's a valuable reserve. That's a big if, though. If they signed him to start at 3B, I think most everyone would agree that is universally terrible. But as a utility IF and insurance for a young gun in Urias at SS and a terrible defender at 2B in Hiura, he's probably OK.

 

As a back up/reserve IF only, I'm not upset with this (but the cost was ridiculous) but we all know that CC will play him more than a back-up/reserve type guy. CC can't not play him, he sees himself in Sogard, and plays him far more innings than should be the case.

 

Lots of people in this very thread have "lauded" this move. If anyone criticizes any move the Brewers make, they are treated like fools. That attitude is getting old.

 

As fans, we are allowed to not like moves, and when that is the case, no one should be made to feel like idiots because they disagree with something.

 

As I have said before, people who constantly make negative posts are just as bad as those that think every move is brilliant.

 

I'm totally skeptical of the Sogard signing. But if they are viewing him as an upgrade to Hernan Perez, I get it. if he's making regular starts at 3B, I'm gonna be pissed. It just remains to be seen what the future holds in this case.

 

In Sogard's case, I don't think the fact that he's a former Brewer should play any role in how he's viewed. What should, though, is that he's a 34-year old career replacement-level middle infielder with little pop up until last season. The Brewers are paying him like they think his breakout last year was real, and that gives me some slight concern that they may be viewing him as a bigger cog in the 2020 team than what he should be.

[pacopete4]

2 starts a week would probably be 50-60 games which are about what he will probably see if he is used right and Stearns builds a worthy team.

[Madhawk23]

If Sogard starts two games a week, that is 2 games too many...

 

I'm not a Sogard fan either, but this comment is just hating on someone to hate on someone. Championship teams still have role players like Sogard, and if he produce like he did last year, it makes this comment look even worse.

 

This is kind of how I see it as well. We're clearly banking on the '19 Sogard with this deal, and if he's anywhere close to that - then we've got a really good utility IF that can play three spots on the IF. We have no idea how Urias will perform in year 2 in the big leagues, so having some insurance there with a vet like Sogard is a good plan. Is 4.5M a bit higher than I would have liked paying Sogard? Yes. But, I also look at this as a really good depth move.

 

Now, as others have said - if Sogard ends up getting the majority of the playing time at 3B, then we might be in trouble.

[tmwiese55]

Even as a big Sogard hater when we had him, let's not forget the guy was a sought after guy at last years deadline and played for a team that went further than we did last year. I'm skeptical that it wasn't a fluke last year but to automatically hate and act like the guy shouldn't see the field after what he did last year seems a bit too much.

[TURBO]

Hate is a strong word, I don't hate the guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice, genuine dude.

 

I just cringe at the thought of him being anything more than a reserve player.

[PaulLeoMolitor]

Hate is a strong word, I don't hate the guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice, genuine dude.

 

I just cringe at the thought of him being anything more than a reserve player.

 

I agree. I don't want him to be our everyday third baseman. I very much prefer him as a reserve player, but a couple starts a week would be just fine (filling in at 3B, 2B, and SS). I would much rather we go after a higher upside third baseman. I would love to get Donaldson (pipe dream), but someone like Kyle Seager would probably be more realistic.

[PaulLeoMolitor]

Hate is a strong word, I don't hate the guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice, genuine dude.

 

I just cringe at the thought of him being anything more than a reserve player.

 

I agree. I don't want him to be our everyday third baseman. I very much prefer him as a reserve player, but a couple starts a week would be just fine (filling in at 3B, 2B, and SS). I would much rather we go after a higher upside third baseman. I would love to get Donaldson (pipe dream), but someone like Kyle Seager would probably be more realistic.

[Madhawk23]

Hate is a strong word, I don't hate the guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice, genuine dude.

 

I just cringe at the thought of him being anything more than a reserve player.

 

I agree. I don't want him to be our everyday third baseman. I very much prefer him as a reserve player, but a couple starts a week would be just fine (filling in at 3B, 2B, and SS). I would much rather we go after a higher upside third baseman. I would love to get Donaldson (pipe dream), but someone like Kyle Seager would probably be more realistic.

 

Let's also keep in mind that Sogard is a guy that the Cubs apparently wanted pretty badly at the deadline last July, and again this winter. I know we have to hope with all hope that he can be the '19 version and not the '18 version, but if he is - then he all of a sudden could be a really valuable utility guy. And, a significant improvement over Hernan.

[Madhawk23]

Hate is a strong word, I don't hate the guy, in fact, he seems like a really nice, genuine dude.

 

I just cringe at the thought of him being anything more than a reserve player.

 

I agree. I don't want him to be our everyday third baseman. I very much prefer him as a reserve player, but a couple starts a week would be just fine (filling in at 3B, 2B, and SS). I would much rather we go after a higher upside third baseman. I would love to get Donaldson (pipe dream), but someone like Kyle Seager would probably be more realistic.

 

Let's also keep in mind that Sogard is a guy that the Cubs apparently wanted pretty badly at the deadline last July, and again this winter. I know we have to hope with all hope that he can be the '19 version and not the '18 version, but if he is - then he all of a sudden could be a really valuable utility guy. And, a significant improvement over Hernan.

[xisxisxis]

There's nothing wrong with the 2017 version of Sogard either, but that's a reserve player not a starter. I think we (I include myself) in being too tough on Sogard for 2018. He wasn't the one penciling in himself as a starter while he clearly was BELOW replacement level. It was CC who insisted he could play his way out of his funk - guess what? he couldn't.

 

While I am mostly ambivalent to CC, he's had a history now of driving 2 players from the team who have gone on to have >7 WAR of combined in production the next season - Villar and Sogard (yes, CC's choice of playing time was a big factor in Sogard being dispatched in 2018). Maybe it's time for CC to do a little self-reflection on his role and how he favors players and doesn't get the best out of some (who clearly can be productive without his management).

[xisxisxis]

There's nothing wrong with the 2017 version of Sogard either, but that's a reserve player not a starter. I think we (I include myself) in being too tough on Sogard for 2018. He wasn't the one penciling in himself as a starter while he clearly was BELOW replacement level. It was CC who insisted he could play his way out of his funk - guess what? he couldn't.

 

While I am mostly ambivalent to CC, he's had a history now of driving 2 players from the team who have gone on to have >7 WAR of combined in production the next season - Villar and Sogard (yes, CC's choice of playing time was a big factor in Sogard being dispatched in 2018). Maybe it's time for CC to do a little self-reflection on his role and how he favors players and doesn't get the best out of some (who clearly can be productive without his management).

[bill hAll Star]

There's nothing wrong with the 2017 version of Sogard either, but that's a reserve player not a starter. I think we (I include myself) in being too tough on Sogard for 2018. He wasn't the one penciling in himself as a starter while he clearly was BELOW replacement level. It was CC who insisted he could play his way out of his funk - guess what? he couldn't.

 

While I am mostly ambivalent to CC, he's had a history now of driving 2 players from the team who have gone on to have >7 WAR of combined in production the next season - Villar and Sogard (yes, CC's choice of playing time was a big factor in Sogard being dispatched in 2018). Maybe it's time for CC to do a little self-reflection on his role and how he favors players and doesn't get the best out of some (who clearly can be productive without his management).

 

Stearns and CC clearly believe that over time, their analysis and projections of players are correct.

 

Shaw, Aguilar, Sogard, Villar, maybe Jennings are the bad examples.

 

Braun, Thames, Chacin, Anderson, Davies, and now 2020 Smoak hopefully are in the collection of good examples.

 

That analysis is, "we think this player is this good. Yes, I know the fans are yelling at me because he has struck out 15 times in the past 2 weeks or that Chacin's first month was awful...but our analysis tells us that this player should be this good with average luck."

 

So unless you see something truly wrong with the guy, you keep running him out there. If you think Ryan Braun is an .850 OPS hitter, you do not sit him because he had an unlucky 2018 and started out 2019 with a .196 average over the first month. Guess what? It generally pays off if you correctly project players. Braun crushed the ball save for the first month and landed at an .850 OPS.

 

In 2020 there will be 3 guys that fans are screaming at Counsell to bench and they will be right at the end of the year. However, there will be 4-5 guys that struggle mightily that Counsell sticks with that end up with great numbers by the end of the year. This is how it works.

[bill hAll Star]

There's nothing wrong with the 2017 version of Sogard either, but that's a reserve player not a starter. I think we (I include myself) in being too tough on Sogard for 2018. He wasn't the one penciling in himself as a starter while he clearly was BELOW replacement level. It was CC who insisted he could play his way out of his funk - guess what? he couldn't.

 

While I am mostly ambivalent to CC, he's had a history now of driving 2 players from the team who have gone on to have >7 WAR of combined in production the next season - Villar and Sogard (yes, CC's choice of playing time was a big factor in Sogard being dispatched in 2018). Maybe it's time for CC to do a little self-reflection on his role and how he favors players and doesn't get the best out of some (who clearly can be productive without his management).

 

Stearns and CC clearly believe that over time, their analysis and projections of players are correct.

 

Shaw, Aguilar, Sogard, Villar, maybe Jennings are the bad examples.

 

Braun, Thames, Chacin, Anderson, Davies, and now 2020 Smoak hopefully are in the collection of good examples.

 

That analysis is, "we think this player is this good. Yes, I know the fans are yelling at me because he has struck out 15 times in the past 2 weeks or that Chacin's first month was awful...but our analysis tells us that this player should be this good with average luck."

 

So unless you see something truly wrong with the guy, you keep running him out there. If you think Ryan Braun is an .850 OPS hitter, you do not sit him because he had an unlucky 2018 and started out 2019 with a .196 average over the first month. Guess what? It generally pays off if you correctly project players. Braun crushed the ball save for the first month and landed at an .850 OPS.

 

In 2020 there will be 3 guys that fans are screaming at Counsell to bench and they will be right at the end of the year. However, there will be 4-5 guys that struggle mightily that Counsell sticks with that end up with great numbers by the end of the year. This is how it works.

[Lathund]

Wonder if the Dbacks would be interested in a Corey Ray/Adrian Houser for Robbie Ray/Jake Lamb swap?

 

They are looking for MLB ready OFers. Too bad Ray had such a terrible season in the minors last year. This probably won't get it done.

 

Lamb has been terrible the last two years. It's one year control for each of Ray and Lamb for $15m (based on the MLBTR arbitration estimates) total, vs 5 years of Houser who's making $600k in 2020. Robbie Ray might not even be any better than Houser in 2020. And that's not taking into account the remaining four years. On top of that we'd be selling low on a prospect. This would be a truly awful and short-sighted trade for the Brewer, they are thes ones who would turn this down, not the Dbacks.

 

You then go on to say it's not even feasible that Houser could be better than Ray. Houser has a 3.60 ERA / 3.90 FIP for his career. Ray is at 4.11 / 3.97. And that's with an almost 3 mph drop in FB velocity for Ray since 2016. They're even trending in different directions.

[Lathund]

Wonder if the Dbacks would be interested in a Corey Ray/Adrian Houser for Robbie Ray/Jake Lamb swap?

 

They are looking for MLB ready OFers. Too bad Ray had such a terrible season in the minors last year. This probably won't get it done.

 

Lamb has been terrible the last two years. It's one year control for each of Ray and Lamb for $15m (based on the MLBTR arbitration estimates) total, vs 5 years of Houser who's making $600k in 2020. Robbie Ray might not even be any better than Houser in 2020. And that's not taking into account the remaining four years. On top of that we'd be selling low on a prospect. This would be a truly awful and short-sighted trade for the Brewer, they are thes ones who would turn this down, not the Dbacks.

 

You then go on to say it's not even feasible that Houser could be better than Ray. Houser has a 3.60 ERA / 3.90 FIP for his career. Ray is at 4.11 / 3.97. And that's with an almost 3 mph drop in FB velocity for Ray since 2016. They're even trending in different directions.

[homer]

Just spitballing over lunch....would the Indians trade Jose Ramirez? I mean if they are looking to cut costs they could trade him and call up Nolan Jones to start at 3rd.

[homer]

Just spitballing over lunch....would the Indians trade Jose Ramirez? I mean if they are looking to cut costs they could trade him and call up Nolan Jones to start at 3rd.

[bill hAll Star]

Just spitballing over lunch....would the Indians trade Jose Ramirez? I mean if they are looking to cut costs they could trade him and call up Nolan Jones to start at 3rd.

 

I don't believe so.

 

I know these rumors are swirling about Cleveland but I think they're dangling some of their expensive guys out there to cut costs (I think they're done with that, though) and if a few teams offered a bunch of top 20 prospects then they'd just go ahead and rebuild.

 

Ramirez is:

27 years old

Locked up for 4 more years with 2 of those being options in case things somehow go south

Averaging roughly $5m/year

Had a down year last year but still has averaged roughly 5 WAR the past 4 seasons.

 

 

I think it would cost our entire farm system to knock them over into making a deal and I still don't think that does it.

 

I know people want to jump on and see what they can get out of "cheap" ownership but maybe I'm naive in expecting the best out of people, but I don't think Cleveland is going to give away an MVP candidate locked into an extremely team friendly deal unless it is for a massive, massive haul.

 

To me, this would be like Attanasio saying, "OK $125 million was a special one-time thing for Grandal but now we want to get down to $110-115 million" and others immediately asking if Yelich is available. I guess I'd trade him for the Dodgers 5 best prospects but otherwise that's not the best way to shave cash off of payroll.

[bill hAll Star]

Just spitballing over lunch....would the Indians trade Jose Ramirez? I mean if they are looking to cut costs they could trade him and call up Nolan Jones to start at 3rd.

 

I don't believe so.

 

I know these rumors are swirling about Cleveland but I think they're dangling some of their expensive guys out there to cut costs (I think they're done with that, though) and if a few teams offered a bunch of top 20 prospects then they'd just go ahead and rebuild.

 

Ramirez is:

27 years old

Locked up for 4 more years with 2 of those being options in case things somehow go south

Averaging roughly $5m/year

Had a down year last year but still has averaged roughly 5 WAR the past 4 seasons.

 

 

I think it would cost our entire farm system to knock them over into making a deal and I still don't think that does it.

 

I know people want to jump on and see what they can get out of "cheap" ownership but maybe I'm naive in expecting the best out of people, but I don't think Cleveland is going to give away an MVP candidate locked into an extremely team friendly deal unless it is for a massive, massive haul.

 

To me, this would be like Attanasio saying, "OK $125 million was a special one-time thing for Grandal but now we want to get down to $110-115 million" and others immediately asking if Yelich is available. I guess I'd trade him for the Dodgers 5 best prospects but otherwise that's not the best way to shave cash off of payroll.

[homer]

Right it's a long shot. I thought maybe because he had a down year they might sour on him.

[homer]

Right it's a long shot. I thought maybe because he had a down year they might sour on him.

[82brewcrew82]

It just feels like DS is putting all the pieces in place to make a big move. Like he wanted to make sure he could get the guys he wanted at the price he wanted and then go for the big fish. I don't know if it will be 3B or SP (probably 3B), but sure seems like something is coming.