Omar Narvaez to Brewers for minor league right-hander Adam Hill and a Competitive Balance draft pick.

[Ennder]

Pitch framing is probably the most important thing a competent catcher does defensively in the big leagues. What I don't trust is properly measuring pitch framing. It is a very complex thing that involves the pitcher, the catcher and the umpire. This isn't one of those things that the stats has a great grasp on just yet.

[TJseven7]

Interestingly, Narvaez graded out much better when he was with the White Sox, so that's very unusual.

 

And there's this quote

"He graded as one of the game’s worst framers in 2018 but did make strides to average levels last year."

 

So basically no one seems to agree on which catcher is actually good at defense. They can't even agree on when Narvaez was at his worst/best.

[JimH5]

Good one for Stearns on this acquisition.

 

The bottom of the order looks a lot better than it did with Pina, Arcia and the pitcher.

 

I don't know who they're sending back, but the Brewers know their minor leaguers better than I do, so I won't quibble with their decision.

[pacopete4]

Boo Stearns for making us wait until December 4th to nab a catcher. What a clown show he is. If he was competent, we would already have 7 World Series in his 4 years.

[OldHeidelberg]

Definitely a little nervous about what we are sending back but getting a catcher who put up 2.1 WAR and 22 HR's is a pretty big get for this lineup.

[adambr2]

Framing is the most overrated non-issue in sports.

 

I've never seen anyone making that claim back that up with anything. I'm hoping you'll be the first.

 

Back up that it has an impact. I've watched umps blow calls that were framed perfectly. I've watched them make calls properly when the pitcher was 3/4s of a plate off his spot and the catcher swiped at it. I do not buy that these umps are that easily swayed, or at the very least swayed to a point that has a statistical impact.

 

It's an old school fairy tale. It has as much to do with the umps bias towards a pitcher/batter as the catchers "skill".

 

https://tht.fangraphs.com/pitch-framing-was-doomed-from-the-start/

 

Pitch framing has an impact. It is not as easy to quantify as many other factors but it is most definitely a thing.

 

Yes, umps are swayed by pitch framing. Some less so than others, but I am surprised that anyone who regularly watches the game would not see the impact that it can have. I remember watching Andrew Susac a few years ago and thinking he had to be the worst framer I'd ever seen.

 

It's definitely not a fairy tale. I'm not relating this to the Narvaez acquisition (I like the acquisition! And he did improve to average framing levels in 2019, so I don't expect him to have a negative impact there), but it does matter. Sure, bring on the robots and it won't matter. As long as you have human umpires, there will be human error and yes, that error is increased by a catcher's framing ability.

 

Just because umpires have indeed blown calls that were framed well and made calls correctly on poorly framed pitches does not make the measure invalid. That's like saying you don't believe defense is that important because you've seen great defenders blow easy plays before and seen bad defenders make great plays.

[FVBrewerFan]

Who will be the major piece in return? Zach Brown? Ray?

[TJseven7]

Pitch framing is probably the most important thing a competent catcher does defensively in the big leagues. What I don't trust is properly measuring pitch framing. It is a very complex thing that involves the pitcher, the catcher and the umpire. This isn't one of those things that the stats has a great grasp on just yet.

 

See, and this take I'll accept as reasonable. It puts pitch framing in the same group as missed tackles. People grade it miserably. Guy misses 20 tackles and he's bad but they don't factor in range and the fact that 75% of those missed tackles were tackles that 90% of LBs don't attempt because they don't have the range to get there. In that 75% the missed tackle is actually a positive because they at least impeded the play to a degree.

 

Saying it's valuable but the measuring stick is flawed is completely reasonable. But then who is actually bad at it? It makes the critique invalid.

[JohnBriggs12]

The Mariners acquired Narvaez one year ago for Alex Colome who ended up being stellar in the White Sox’s bullpen this year. Curious to see what the one year return on investment is for Seattle here.

 

Speaking of Colome, if the White Sox don't contend as they hope to, Colome is a great midseason trade target.

[Never Outhustled]

Catching instructor Charlie O'Brien is terrific, making this a perfect addition for the Brewers.

[jonescm128]

Maybe he can offer some versatility and play 1B as well? Doesn’t look like he has done it in the past though.

[TJseven7]

 

https://tht.fangraphs.com/pitch-framing-was-doomed-from-the-start/

 

Pitch framing has an impact. It is not as easy to quantify as many other factors but it is most definitely a thing.

 

Yes, umps are swayed by pitch framing. Some less so than others, but I am surprised that anyone who regularly watches the game would not see the impact that it can have. I remember watching Andrew Susac a few years ago and thinking he had to be the worst framer I'd ever seen.

 

It's definitely not a fairy tale. I'm not relating this to the Narvaez acquisition (I like the acquisition! And he did improve to average framing levels in 2019, so I don't expect him to have a negative impact there), but it does matter. Sure, bring on the robots and it won't matter. As long as you have human umpires, there will be human error and yes, that error is increased by a catcher's framing ability.

 

Just because umpires have indeed blown calls that were framed well and made calls correctly on poorly framed pitches does not make the measure invalid. That's like saying you don't believe defense is that important because you've seen great defenders blow easy plays before and seen bad defenders make great plays.

 

That's all well and good but if you can't measure it, it holds no water. So let's agree that it matters. But you can't quantify who is good at it and who is bad at it because they can't factor the variables needed to measure it. So you can't show it's statistical impact. That kills it's validity. As I said above with missed tackles. One guy misses 3. Can't move. One guy misses 20 and gets to 15 the other guy couldn't touch. Who is worse at tackling? Is 5 worse than 3 or do you give credit for impeding a play on 15 misses?

 

That's the biggest issue with the new analytics craze. In many ways its golden. In many ways it's given far too much credibility when they can't factor it accurately. We aren't even talking off by a bit. We are talking no where close. Eye tests being validated by numbers created by an eye test. It's a mess.

[Never Outhustled]

I could see Arcia as the outgoing piece of this deal.

[PeaveyFury]

So by my count, they've addressed catcher for the next few years at a level not likely to be much less than last year, for a much more reasonable cost. Defensively, there's likely some decrease. Upgrade offensively at SS with the potential for that position to be locked up for the next 5 years at a low cost.

 

Seems pretty good to me so far! Lots more to come.

[adambr2]

 

https://tht.fangraphs.com/pitch-framing-was-doomed-from-the-start/

 

Pitch framing has an impact. It is not as easy to quantify as many other factors but it is most definitely a thing.

 

Yes, umps are swayed by pitch framing. Some less so than others, but I am surprised that anyone who regularly watches the game would not see the impact that it can have. I remember watching Andrew Susac a few years ago and thinking he had to be the worst framer I'd ever seen.

 

It's definitely not a fairy tale. I'm not relating this to the Narvaez acquisition (I like the acquisition! And he did improve to average framing levels in 2019, so I don't expect him to have a negative impact there), but it does matter. Sure, bring on the robots and it won't matter. As long as you have human umpires, there will be human error and yes, that error is increased by a catcher's framing ability.

 

Just because umpires have indeed blown calls that were framed well and made calls correctly on poorly framed pitches does not make the measure invalid. That's like saying you don't believe defense is that important because you've seen great defenders blow easy plays before and seen bad defenders make great plays.

 

That's all well and good but if you can't measure it, it holds no water. So let's agree that it matters. But you can't quantify who is good at it and who is bad at it because they can't factor the variables needed to measure it. So you can't show it's statistical impact. That kills it's validity. As I said above with missed tackles. One guy misses 3. Can't move. One guy misses 20 and gets to 15 the other guy couldn't touch. Who is worse at tackling?

 

That's the biggest issue with the new analytics craze. In many ways its golden. In many ways it's given far too much credibility when they can't factor it anywhere near accurately.

 

The link I gave you does quantify it. It says this catcher was worth "X" amount of runs and this catcher cost his team "X" amount of runs in pitch framing.

 

Now yes, it's not pefectably quantifiable but there are many accepted modern analytics that fall into the same category of not perfectly quantifiable (WAR, UZR and other defensive statistics for example).

[adambr2]

I could see Arcia as the outgoing piece of this deal.

 

I'm going to take a wild guess and say Jacob Nottingham.

[brewcrewdue80]

Nice. A solid Platoon partner. Considering he's now in his Arb years. I wouldnt expect a hurt kind of cost. Now having Urias I'd take Eduardo Garcia as a likely Lottery target for the Mariners.

[Invader3K]

Just glancing at his stats, he suddenly got a lot more ABs as a Mariner, and consequently hit 22 home runs (he'd always been in single digits earlier). Seems like this is a player coming into his prime who has some real power. Obviously, don't know what we're giving up yet, but he seems like he'll be a solid replacement for Grandal.

 

Edit: Fixed his home run total.

[Eye Black]

Narvaez had 22 home runs last year. According to Baseball Prospectus, T-Mobile Park (home of the Mariners) had a home run factor of 92 for left-handed bats last year (100 is league average). That ranked 24th in baseball for left-handers. Miller Park only ranked 14th with a home run factor of 99 for LH hitters which surprised me a little.

[torts]

Stearns is playing the long game that pitch framing won't matter because big brother will be calling balls and strikes in a year

[TJseven7]

And they factor in the ump, batter, pitcher bias. Home road bias. A slew of factors you don't know unless you can read minds. It's a judgement call and you don't have the variables to calculate that properly. It's the best we can do is not accurate enough to trust. It doesn't matter that they assign a number to it. You could likely eye test it and guess a number just as accurately.

 

That why they've gone from WAR to all the new calculations because WAR wasn't good enough. I highly doubt anything like subjective like pitch framing is documented accurately.

[PeaveyFury]

Narvaez had 22 home runs last year. According to Baseball Prospectus, T-Mobile Park (home of the Mariners) had a home run factor of 92 for left-handed bats last year (100 is league average). That ranked 24th in baseball for left-handers. Miller Park only ranked 14th with a home run factor of 99 for LH hitters which surprised me a little.

 

Yes, I think he nears or exceeds 30 HR's in Milwaukee. I'd be real interested in someone posting his spray chart over Miller Park like we did with Yelich.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Very good, very consistent on base skills. Power spiked a bit last year, like many, but even if that's a bit of a false number due to a juiced ball or whatever he still looks like a 12 to 15 home run guy with really good on-base skills. Really like this get.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Guess which catcher the Mariners jettisoned when they traded for Narvaez last year ...

 

Hint: He's a PURE hitter!

[TJseven7]

Guess which catcher the Mariners jettisoned when they traded for Narvaez last year ...

 

Hint: He's a PURE hitter!

 

Martín Maldonado

 

Vogt?

 

Other fun lines in the story. MKE signs Grandal 18/1. CWS trades Narvaez to Seattle. CWS signs Grandal 18/4. MKE trades for Narvaez.