Baseball Hall of Fame Ballot

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

Vizquel was 2.5 war per 162 and ozzie was 4.9 war per 162. He definitely wasnt hype. As someone else pointed out, Smith had 8 seasons of 5+ war, Vizquel had one. Smith had a couple very legitimate mvp caliber seasons.

 

I can understand the arguments for Vizquel in the HOF such as his longevity and 2900 hits, even if I ultimately disagree with them, but I really disagree with the notion that he's super comparable to Ozzie.

 

That's fair. It's certainly a judgement call. I guess I was just never a big Ozzie guy. He always had a knack for timely hits, but I always saw him as a terrific defender who simply had a good enough bat to stay in the lineup. I mean, I know there is much more to offensive success than power, batting average and OPS, but when you look at Ozzie's career numbers in those areas, they don't scream HOF to me. So when I hear the argument that Omar shouldn't be in the HOF, Ozzie is the first guy I always think of.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I still think to this day the fact that Andre Dawson got the MVP in 87 over Smith is an absolute travesty and a complete joke. Smith had statistically the superior season, played for a team with a winning record, and honestly, in my opinion oh, what really stands out as impressive was getting 75 RBI without the benefit of a single home run. I understand he hit behind Vince Coleman , but I still think 75 RBIs while hitting second and having no homers was an impressive feat

[ThisIsMyCrew]

 

Vizquel was 2.5 war per 162 and ozzie was 4.9 war per 162. He definitely wasnt hype. As someone else pointed out, Smith had 8 seasons of 5+ war, Vizquel had one. Smith had a couple very legitimate mvp caliber seasons.

 

I can understand the arguments for Vizquel in the HOF such as his longevity and 2900 hits, even if I ultimately disagree with them, but I really disagree with the notion that he's super comparable to Ozzie.

 

That's fair. It's certainly a judgement call. I guess I was just never a big Ozzie guy. He always had a knack for timely hits, but I always saw him as a terrific defender who simply had a good enough bat to stay in the lineup. I mean, I know there is much more to offensive success than power, batting average and OPS, but when you look at Ozzie's career numbers in those areas, they don't scream HOF to me. So when I hear the argument that Omar shouldn't be in the HOF, Ozzie is the first guy I always think of.

 

My biggest issue with Ozzie. Is that he’s a cardinal. Makes me sick.

[sveumrules]

 

Vizquel was 2.5 war per 162 and ozzie was 4.9 war per 162. He definitely wasnt hype. As someone else pointed out, Smith had 8 seasons of 5+ war, Vizquel had one. Smith had a couple very legitimate mvp caliber seasons.

 

I can understand the arguments for Vizquel in the HOF such as his longevity and 2900 hits, even if I ultimately disagree with them, but I really disagree with the notion that he's super comparable to Ozzie.

 

That's fair. It's certainly a judgement call. I guess I was just never a big Ozzie guy. He always had a knack for timely hits, but I always saw him as a terrific defender who simply had a good enough bat to stay in the lineup. I mean, I know there is much more to offensive success than power, batting average and OPS, but when you look at Ozzie's career numbers in those areas, they don't scream HOF to me. So when I hear the argument that Omar shouldn't be in the HOF, Ozzie is the first guy I always think of.

 

I think Ozzie & Omar are comparable in a fashion similar to the way that Rickey & Raines were comparable.

 

The difference is that Rickey was an inner circle great (111.2 WAR), so Raines' 69.4 WAR looked kind of shoddy by comparison, whereas Ozzie (76.9 WAR) is around the same neighborhood as Raines, so his inferior same styled counterpart Omar ends up down on the borderline (45.6 WAR).

[clancyphile]

Look, was Vizquel an all-time great?

 

The answer is clearly, "No."

 

I just don't think he warrants being in the Hall of Fame.

 

There is, IMO, a far stronger case for Tommy John. The 288 career wins and 3.34 ERA are borderline on their own, but his biggest mark was for all baseball with the successful UCL transplant procedure that now bears his name. Either the Veterans Committee, the Modern Era Committee, or he Today's Game Committee need to rectify this omission ASAP.

[JimH5]

Announcement day today.

 

Bumping this up.

[nate82]

My votes would be:

 

Bonds, Clemens, Schilling, Walker, and ugggg Jeter.

 

I don't really care about the PED use anymore or alleged use or whatever. It was part of the game when they were playing so I am not going to hold it against them.

[clancyphile]

My ballot:

Jeter - Clearly a yes on the 3,000 hits.

Schilling - A yes for me based on the career

Kent - He's one of the best 2B of all time

Walker - I think he warrants it, based on HOF Monitor and JAWS

Rolen - A close call, but yes, also on HOF Monitor and JAWS

 

Bumping up my ballot.

[KeithStone53151]

I like the idea of holding off on all the steroid guys and having a handshake type agreement between writers to vote them all in in 2022 when Arod is first eligible. Have a "steroid class". Seems the best way to get those guys in with a proper asterisk.

[tmwiese55]

My two cents on the steroid guys is Pudge Rodriguez is already in so how are you going to keep the rest out? David Ortiz is going to walk in on the first ballot because he's a beloved Red Sock. For whatever reason those two just fly under the radar. But Bonds and Arod can't? I'd generally put in just the elite guys and move along.

 

ETA: Oh and Tony LaRussa is in.

[jerichoholicninja]

My two cents on the steroid guys is Pudge Rodriguez is already in so how are you going to keep the rest out? David Ortiz is going to walk in on the first ballot because he's a beloved Red Sock. For whatever reason those two just fly under the radar. But Bonds and Arod can't? I'd generally put in just the elite guys and move along.

 

Thing about the steroid guys is most of them are disliked by the media for personal reasons. Steroids is just a convenient excuse for not voting for those guys and instead voting for their buddies and further watering down the Hall of Fame.

[Outlander]

My two cents on the steroid guys is Pudge Rodriguez is already in so how are you going to keep the rest out? David Ortiz is going to walk in on the first ballot because he's a beloved Red Sock. For whatever reason those two just fly under the radar. But Bonds and Arod can't? I'd generally put in just the elite guys and move along.

 

ETA: Oh and Tony LaRussa is in.

Not a chance he is elected first ballot.

[KeithStone53151]

My two cents on the steroid guys is Pudge Rodriguez is already in so how are you going to keep the rest out? David Ortiz is going to walk in on the first ballot because he's a beloved Red Sock. For whatever reason those two just fly under the radar. But Bonds and Arod can't? I'd generally put in just the elite guys and move along.

 

ETA: Oh and Tony LaRussa is in.

 

I don't remember seeing anything on Ortiz being a steroid guy. I also don't remember on Pudge but with him it's a bit more likely I would have missed it. But again, that's part of why I like the idea of a steroid class. Ortiz would be first eligible on the 2022 ballot.

[tmwiese55]

Ortiz failed the mass test they did that was supposed to be anonymous but got leaked. Don't think it's a coincidence he got with known juicer Manny and then got good.

 

Pudge was in the middle of the TX Rangers stuff with all those guys. Named in Canseco's book. Lost like 20 lbs once testing went in

 

I really don't care about it, I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy and two sidedness of it all. Let in the best of that era and move on.

[Oxy]

I'd make all the steroid guys wait for a little bit longer--til they are off the main ballot. Let the veterans committee have a "steroid era" ballot 10 years from now where they start to let them in 2 at a time. Bonds and Clemens in 2030 or so, then Sosa and Mcgwire, then Ramirez and ARod then Palmeiro and Ortiz. Something like that.

 

McGwire and Palmeiro are already off the ballot...Shouldn't the rest of them have to wait until those guys get in?

[tmwiese55]

I suppose that makes sense. I guess the different I could see is that Bonds, Arod, Clemons were the elite of the elite of their era if not the best, and likely were before they started this stuff. those others are not.

[wntrtxn21]

Ortiz failed the mass test they did that was supposed to be anonymous but got leaked. Don't think it's a coincidence he got with known juicer Manny and then got good.

 

Pudge was in the middle of the TX Rangers stuff with all those guys. Named in Canseco's book. Lost like 20 lbs once testing went in

 

I really don't care about it, I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy and two sidedness of it all. Let in the best of that era and move on.

 

According to reports, the steroid found on the mass test was a cataboic steroid, not an anabolic. Ortiz was prescribed the steroids for muscle inflamation in his back. From that time on he was tested hundreds of times and never missed a test or failed a test.

[tmwiese55]

Ortiz failed the mass test they did that was supposed to be anonymous but got leaked. Don't think it's a coincidence he got with known juicer Manny and then got good.

 

Pudge was in the middle of the TX Rangers stuff with all those guys. Named in Canseco's book. Lost like 20 lbs once testing went in

 

I really don't care about it, I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy and two sidedness of it all. Let in the best of that era and move on.

 

According to reports, the steroid found on the mass test was a cataboic steroid, not an anabolic. Ortiz was prescribed the steroids for muscle inflamation in his back. From that time on he was tested hundreds of times and never missed a test or failed a test.

 

Almost all these guys passed tons of tests, including Braun. Almost all guys who fail come with a similar story about how they didn't know whatever thing they were doing for good reasons was actually illegal. Some probably telling the truth and plenty of others have found to just be lying. You can believe his story if you want and I don't care either way but he failed the test.

 

Combine that with not being all that good, then all of a sudden being a superstar once he partners up with Manny and the storyline and circumstantial looks bad too. Plenty of other guys have been tried guilty by the public purely on circumstantial stuff like that and won't get in the hall. Another circumstantial on him is that he started to fall apart late in his career for a couple years and looked done, then all of a sudden he's back to dominating again in his upper 30s. He has that plus a failed test. I also don't know and don't want to know the difference between anabolic and catabolic, that goes back to previous posts in the Stros thread that where do you draw the line. Why is one guy garbage and the other not because they drew the line here instead of there, etc.

 

ETA: And I'm not saying he shouldn't be in. I'm saying this trial by public stuff is impossible and ripe for biases and hypocrisy. He's going to skate by while superior players aren't let in due to this.

[jerichoholicninja]

I don't understand the whole steroid guys have to wait thing. Either you think they're Hall of Famers or they're not. What does waiting accomplish other than letting in players who don't deserve it in the meantime?

[RollieTime]

I know WAR isn’t the end all, be all stat, but I just wanted to point this out.

 

Derek Jeter career WAR: 72.4

Larry Walker career WAR: 72.7

Scott Rolen career WAR: 70.2

 

People are talking about Jeter being a unanimous pick to join the Hall of Fame while Walker is in his 10th and final season to get elected. Is it maybe just a little bit of Yankees glasses being put on here? Rivera was unanimous and now Jeter might join him as the only 2 guys to receive that honor? Even a guy like Scott Rolen, who is right around 48% with a little over half the ballots known for 2020, while in his 3rd season on the ballot, appears like he is going to fall well short. Does anybody else see an issue with the voting process in general?

 

How are guys like Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Willie Mays, and Cal Ripken Jr. among others not elected unanimously?

 

I’m not saying Jeter doesn’t deserve to be in because he does. But it’s a shame that others in the past aren’t unanimous when they were as deserving or even more so, than someone like Jeter.

 

I think the Hall of Fame voting process needs to change anyway in that it shouldn’t take someone 8 years of “no” to the Hall of Fame for a guy to all of a sudden, when he hasn’t touched a bat for 13 years, that now, yes, he’s worthy to be in. I think they could reduce it to 3 or 5 years of eligibility to decide who is worthy and who is not.

 

Not trying to derail this at all, but it just kind of grinds my gears that nobody is unanimous, but now it’s time to just elect multiple Yankees players unanimously. There were plenty of as deserving or more deserving players of that honor in the past. Maybe the voters will be more open to selecting players unanimously and I would be fine with that. But if you can’t look at a guy and pretty much think “yup, Hall of Famer”, then that player shouldn’t be in the Hall. And it shouldn’t take that long to get it “right”.

[MrTPlush]

5. Voting: Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

 

 

I see no problem with someone leaving out steroid guys. The voting flat out isn't just about stats. Until it is I find it quite acceptable for one to make an argument not to vote for these guys. People always seem to leave out the full voting criteria.

[JimH5]

I don't understand the whole steroid guys have to wait thing. Either you think they're Hall of Famers or they're not. What does waiting accomplish other than letting in players who don't deserve it in the meantime?

 

It's just voters changing their minds and the electorate changing with new BBWAA voters replacing old/deceased ones.

[KeithStone53151]

I know WAR isn’t the end all, be all stat, but I just wanted to point this out.

 

Derek Jeter career WAR: 72.4

Larry Walker career WAR: 72.7

Scott Rolen career WAR: 70.2

 

People are talking about Jeter being a unanimous pick to join the Hall of Fame while Walker is in his 10th and final season to get elected.

 

Most peoples argument on Walker is Colorado. He probably should get in, but his career WAR is heavily inflated by Colorado. Rolen is on the border for me also, he's definitely in the hall of very good but I'm a high bar hall guy. Jeter I tend to agree is wildly overrated, he has no business being a unanimous election in my opinion. His standing gets inflated by New York bias and his postseason performance(which comes with a lot of chances due to being a Yankee). He definitely should get in, but for me he probably shouldn't even be first ballot.

[ReverendBrewmeister]

Derek Jeter named on all but one ballot: 396 of 397 (99.75%)

Larry Walker barely slides in: 76.6%

 

https://www.mlb.com/news/hall-of-fame-class-of-2020

[AKCheesehead]

Does anyone legitimately believe jeter was better than ripken?