C Yasmani Grandal signs with White Sox - 4 years $73 million

[Ennder]

Per Murray:

 

"...In the end, 4 years, $73 million was out of their price range."

 

That's where I assumed 4 years wasn't too long for them.

 

I don't think those can really be separated, though. I mean, yeah, if Yasmani was willing to sign for $40 million over 4 years, I'm sure the Brewers would have been all over that. I personally think that it was the total value of the deal, combined with it's length, that they couldn't do. There's no reason to believe that they wouldn't have been willing to go two or even three more years at the same AAV.

 

Yeah I gotta agree with this. If he had taken an offer of 2 years for $40M I think Stearns jumps all over it even though the AAV is higher. If it had been for 6 years and $75M I think he jumps all over it too. It is the combination of 4 yrs, $73M that is too steep. The AAV is too high for that many years, especially in the NL where he can't fall back on the DH if his defense/health slips.

[JimH5]

I'll bet, though, that you shop around to determine whether your furnace repair company is the best deal for their services relative to others out there. And I'd bet that you often weigh whether it's best incur the cost to replace that furnace this year, or whether that money would be better spent on multiple-other important items, like upgrading your old water heater, painting the whole upstairs of your house, and having your deck re-stained. Sure, you can do ALL of those things now and put it on your credit card, but that would be fiscally irresponsible and either snowball into a catastrophe in 2-3 years, or would cause you to have to sell your house to pay off the debt you incurred and weren't able to pay for. I'd bet that relates to most people's lives pretty well, one way or the other.

 

Come Cheer the Fiscally Responsible Brewers! They're exciting to watch, and budget-friendly!

 

First of all, my house isn't my business and source of income. It also hasn't gained $1Billion in value since I bought it. So I'm not sure that's the best analogy.

 

And none of us know what is fiscally irresponsible for the Brewers to do. We don't know how much they make, nor do we know the value of winning a World Series, either in the year they do it or in the years that follow. What we know today is that they didn't want to pay the price to bring back Grandal. Maybe he'll be a bust. Maybe tomorrow they'll sign someone who is awesome. All I can do now is look at the roster and lament the loss of a really good player.

 

Thankfully, our front office understands that there are smart, fiscally responsible decisions that can be made to upgrade the roster and they have a history of doing so.

 

The Brewers! Endorsed by the Financial Planners and Actuaries Association of America!

 

I find all of the hand-wringing very odd, when the team has had two consecutive offseasons where they signed top-tier free agents prior to now. Also, it's November 21st.

 

They've also had 50 years of not winning. And they were really close last year, but have done nothing so far but shed players. I just don't get shrugging off the loss of a player they liked and wanted. It's not your money.

[MrTPlush]

Ahhh the classic complaining about the payroll, not spending money, and not making big moves before the winter meetings.

 

I remember that the last two years lol. Didn’t end up being that way in the end both times.

 

If a guy is getting signed before December someone massively overpaid.

[PeaveyFury]

Come Cheer the Fiscally Responsible Brewers! They're exciting to watch, and budget-friendly!

 

Their approach prevents them from becoming a 'fart in the wind', as Ron Wolf so brilliantly put it. They're run by the smartest baseball people the franchise has ever had. And yes, they have indeed been exciting to watch while smartly aquiring their players. Which is why the complaining is so odd and misguided, IMO.

 

First of all, my house isn't my business and source of income. It also hasn't gained $1Billion in value since I bought it. So I'm not sure that's the best analogy.

 

You very much missed the point. The point being, complaining about budgets and spending on November 21 is ridiculous. For all we know, they priced out their furnace and decided that money would be better spent on 3 other upgrades instead, which is the likely outcome from here. Who cares what your house value is if you can pay to keep it functioning each year?

 

Thankfully, our front office understands that there are smart, fiscally responsible decisions that can be made to upgrade the roster and they have a history of doing so.

 

The Brewers! Endorsed by the Financial Planners and Actuaries Association of America!

 

No, just by people that hope the team can continue to put a competitive product on the field year after year, rather than having to rebuild in 2023 when they're paying an aging catcher and centerfielder $50 million to fill two roster spots and OPS .600.

 

. And they were really close last year, but have done nothing so far but shed players.

 

Yep. Because IT'S NOVEMBER 21ST and this was the FIRST MAJOR SIGNING OF THE ENTIRE OFFSEASON.

 

It's not your money.

 

That also means it's not yours, Jim.

[JimH5]

There is an entire league of owners that don't operate at a loss by and large.

 

They don't share their financials so we don't know that. We surely don't know that among the winningest teams. Team values continue to rise, but there is no certainty that is because of business acumen. Sports ownership is an exclusive club that is attractive to the ultrarich. They want in, and I think that is what drives up franchise values. Like owning a piece of fine art, which produces zero income, team ownership is attractive because of its exclusivity and the fame that accompanies it.

 

Attanasio and the ownership group are rich but he:

 

A. Needs to make a profit for his ownership group.

 

We don't know that either. His ownership group might be quite content with the $1Billion increase in franchise value that they don't care about yearly performance. If you own a growth stock portfolio, you might not care about annual income or dividends.

 

B. Just because he's made a billion dollars on value since buying the team doesn't mean he has that money in his pocket right now just waiting to spend on a 3rd starting pitcher.

 

Baseball owners have access to money. Either borrow on the franchise value or sell a portion of the team or make a cash call to his ownership group. Or structure the contract to have deferred payments.

 

We all enjoy baseball - specifically major league baseball. It's not a terrible take to ask/wish that the owners spend more of their cash on the players...but...if you have this much of a hardened take, what's the point of following? Follow another league, sport, or activity. It's not going to change...these are the parameters. Why let this ruin a hobby for you?

 

This doesn't ruin it for me. I like to complain about stuff. I'm mostly disappointed that my fellow fans look at attractive players as unaffordable and just accept that as the way things have to be. Why follow a team that insists it is shackled and unable to give fans a championship roster? Especially when they just told us that ink blob at the top of the new BiG logo means we are forever connected by an unbreakable bond?

 

And to reiterate again - I would be shocked if they don't at least spend up to that $120-130 million range.

What if that's not enough to win?

[PeaveyFury]

Why follow a team that insists it is shackled and unable to give fans a championship roster?

 

You seem certain that those shackles are fabricated. You’ve noted multiple times that we don’t know what the financials look like... that means you don’t know that those claims aren’t legitimate either.....

[patrickgpe]

My guess is our top offer was somewhere in the range of 3 years and 45-50M. Just my hunch.

I personally think the brewers matched the average yearly value but not the years, but again no way to know for sure.

 

I think he was pretty clear he wasn’t taking a pay cut for security or else he would have been a met.

[JimH5]

You're right. I don't know if they are fabricated. But the $1B valuation increase says there's money there if he wanted to get to it.

 

Mark A has been a fine owner, and Stearns has done a fine job of assembling the rosters since he's been here.

 

I just want the Brewers to win a World Series. And today, November 21st, they seem much further away than they did in September.

 

Losing Grandal, but gaining 3 other players is fine. But only if they gain the other players. There's no guarantee of that happening. And it's possible that the market leaves Stearns's strategy behind.

 

When you're constantly shopping off the clearance rack, there's no guarantee you'll find what you need.

[RollieTime]

Highest payroll in team history and people are still complaining about the Brewers being “cheap”. I’m not sure how anyone could be a fan of this team for any length of time, knowing their history, and complain at all about the product being put out there now and the payroll they are spending to make this team competitive. It’s honestly dumbfounding.

[PeaveyFury]

When you're constantly shopping off the clearance rack, there's no guarantee you'll find what you need.

 

You see, it’s this narrative that’s just unfair and a holdover from the Brewers of the Selig Era. The Brewers have been significant players in free agency the past few years, so there’s no bargain rack to it. That’s just a false narrative.

[MrTPlush]

The increase in team valuation is mostly based purely on the fact owning a sports team is like the holy grail of ways to spend insane money you don’t know what to do with. It isn’t heavily tied to actual profitability...without selling the team of course.

 

The Brewers outpace similar market sized teams in spending, draw well, treat the fans amazing etc. and yet people are upset they don’t treat the team like a video game.

[JimH5]

Highest payroll in team history and people are still complaining about the Brewers being “cheap”. I’m not sure how anyone could be a fan of this team for any length of time, knowing their history, and complain at all about the product being put out there now and the payroll they are spending to make this team competitive. It’s honestly dumbfounding.

 

Highest payroll in team history and 4th in the division.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/2019/team/all/

[Fear The Chorizo]

For the love of God, please stop with equating a franchise valuation increase with actual income...value can increase without investors realizing any financial gain - pretty much the only way they realize that increase themselves is by selling their stake, at which point the don't give two craps about what the team's payroll is anymore. Payroll needs to be tied to operating expenses year in/year out, not what Forbes says an organization is worth. The Brewers have the smallest market to try and generate revenue with in all of MLB - so they will always be at a financial disadvantage when it comes down to actual dollars and cents, not make believe pie in the sky money that doesn't exist unless a stakeholder sells and is no longer a stakeholder. All the conjecture of offering deferred payments, taking out loans against the franchise, reducing ownership stakes and the like are all strawmen options that just aren't realistic - if that was the standard practice, the Brewers would also be at a disadvantage doing so because larger markets with more valuable franchises could simply take out bigger loans and still shell out more $$ for team payroll.

 

The Brewers had their highest opening day payroll by far this past season, and IMO it was largely a product of running significantly reduced payrolls a few seasons prior and having some wiggle room to bump up payroll and fill key MLB roster holes, namely Grandal at catcher. That moved worked out really well in 2019. Are people seriously upset we couldn't get Yasmani back in the fold for 4 more seasons at the same high AAV pricetag we got him for in 2019??? I'd have like to have him back for another 1-2 seasons at that price, but not 4 - since he got a long term deal from somewhere else that's fine. Move on, fill out the roster using that dollar allotment on other players and the overall quality of the team potentially improves.

[JimH5]

When you're constantly shopping off the clearance rack, there's no guarantee you'll find what you need.

 

You see, it’s this narrative that’s just unfair and a holdover from the Brewers of the Selig Era. The Brewers have been significant players in free agency the past few years, so there’s no bargain rack to it. That’s just a false narrative.

 

I will gladly jump for joy when they add players whose performance exceeds what they lost in Grandal.

[RollieTime]

 

This doesn't ruin it for me. I like to complain about stuff. I'm mostly disappointed that my fellow fans look at attractive players as unaffordable and just accept that as the way things have to be. Why follow a team that insists it is shackled and unable to give fans a championship roster? Especially when they just told us that ink blob at the top of the new BiG logo means we are forever connected by an unbreakable bond?

 

Grandal wasn’t unaffordable. It’s not wise to give long term, high value contracts to a catcher that is already 31 years old. Most catchers significantly decline in production shortly after 31. Brewers could bring back Moose and sign someone like Iglesias for the same amount of money, filling two big holes we currently have. Pina is a solid hitting catcher with great defense and is owed under $2 million. Get good value there and improve other areas of the roster with big acquisitions. I’m not sad to see Grandal leave as long as other areas are improved like the rotation or shortstop. Plenty of offseason to go.

[PeaveyFury]

When you're constantly shopping off the clearance rack, there's no guarantee you'll find what you need.

 

You see, it’s this narrative that’s just unfair and a holdover from the Brewers of the Selig Era. The Brewers have been significant players in free agency the past few years, so there’s no bargain rack to it. That’s just a false narrative.

 

I will gladly jump for joy when they add players whose performance exceeds what they lost in Grandal.

 

Good thing they have many, many weeks left to do so, then.

[JimH5]

For the love of God, please stop with equating a franchise valuation increase with actual income...value can increase without investors realizing any financial gain - pretty much the only way they realize that increase themselves is by selling their stake, at which point the don't give two craps about what the team's payroll is anymore. Payroll needs to be tied to operating expenses year in/year out, not what Forbes says an organization is worth.

 

I'm not equating it with income. And none of us know what their income truly is anyway.

 

There's no guarantee that other businesses operate at a profit every year, why should our favorite baseball team be any different?

[MrTPlush]

Highest payroll in team history and people are still complaining about the Brewers being “cheap”. I’m not sure how anyone could be a fan of this team for any length of time, knowing their history, and complain at all about the product being put out there now and the payroll they are spending to make this team competitive. It’s honestly dumbfounding.

 

Highest payroll in team history and 4th in the division.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/2019/team/all/

 

Dang the Reds had a higher payroll?

 

Sure got them far didn't it.

[PeaveyFury]

For the love of God, please stop with equating a franchise valuation increase with actual income...value can increase without investors realizing any financial gain - pretty much the only way they realize that increase themselves is by selling their stake, at which point the don't give two craps about what the team's payroll is anymore. Payroll needs to be tied to operating expenses year in/year out, not what Forbes says an organization is worth.

 

I'm not equating it with income. And none of us know what their income truly is anyway.

 

There's no guarantee that other businesses operate at a profit every year, why should our favorite baseball team be any different?

 

You don’t know that it is any different. Honestly Jim, beyond a repeated argument that you don’t think the Brewers have spent enough money this offseason despite the fact that it’s November 21st, I’m not sure what point you’re hoping to make here.

 

There just seems to be a disconnect in the concept that making a sound baseball decision doesn’t mean they’re just being cheap.

[JimH5]

 

This doesn't ruin it for me. I like to complain about stuff. I'm mostly disappointed that my fellow fans look at attractive players as unaffordable and just accept that as the way things have to be. Why follow a team that insists it is shackled and unable to give fans a championship roster? Especially when they just told us that ink blob at the top of the new BiG logo means we are forever connected by an unbreakable bond?

 

Grandal wasn’t unaffordable. It’s not wise to give long term, high value contracts to a catcher that is already 31 years old. Most catchers significantly decline in production shortly after 31. Brewers could bring back Moose and sign someone like Iglesias for the same amount of money, filling two big holes we currently have. Pina is a solid hitting catcher with great defense and is owed under $2 million. Get good value there and improve other areas of the roster with big acquisitions. I’m not sad to see Grandal leave as long as other areas are improved like the rotation or shortstop. Plenty of offseason to go.

 

I'm looking forward to those big acquisitions you're forecasting. They'll be needed to fill the sizable gap in production between Grandal's 120 OPS+ and the older Manny Pina's 85 OPS+.

[brewerfan82]

Highest payroll in team history and people are still complaining about the Brewers being “cheap”. I’m not sure how anyone could be a fan of this team for any length of time, knowing their history, and complain at all about the product being put out there now and the payroll they are spending to make this team competitive. It’s honestly dumbfounding.

 

Highest payroll in team history and 4th in the division.

 

https://www.usatoday.com/sports/mlb/salaries/2019/team/all/

 

15th highest payroll in MLB... with arguably the smallest market in baseball (smallest market population: https://www.baseball-almanac.com/articles/baseball_markets.shtml, 2nd smallest TV market: https://www.sportsmediawatch.com/nba-market-size-nfl-mlb-nhl-nielsen-ratings/, 5th lowest TV revenue: https://blogs.fangraphs.com/estimated-tv-revenues-for-all-30-mlb-teams/)

 

So they're outspending half the league despite having the fewest resources. [sarcasm]I understand why you're complaining that they don't spend enough.[/sarcasm]

[homer]

To reiterate my earlier point, it's November 21st.

[Fear The Chorizo]

For the love of God, please stop with equating a franchise valuation increase with actual income...value can increase without investors realizing any financial gain - pretty much the only way they realize that increase themselves is by selling their stake, at which point the don't give two craps about what the team's payroll is anymore. Payroll needs to be tied to operating expenses year in/year out, not what Forbes says an organization is worth.

 

I'm not equating it with income. And none of us know what their income truly is anyway.

 

There's no guarantee that other businesses operate at a profit every year, why should our favorite baseball team be any different?

 

So why the heck are you assuming they are wiping their behinds with $100 dollar bills from insane profits instead of paying catchers on the wrong side of 30 for FOUR more seasons if nobody actually knows what their income is?

 

I for one hope the Brewers are at least marginally profitable every year - a sustained string of financial operating losses for them probably sends the team elsewhere.

[JimH5]

For the love of God, please stop with equating a franchise valuation increase with actual income...value can increase without investors realizing any financial gain - pretty much the only way they realize that increase themselves is by selling their stake, at which point the don't give two craps about what the team's payroll is anymore. Payroll needs to be tied to operating expenses year in/year out, not what Forbes says an organization is worth.

 

I'm not equating it with income. And none of us know what their income truly is anyway.

 

There's no guarantee that other businesses operate at a profit every year, why should our favorite baseball team be any different?

 

You don’t know that it is any different. Honestly Jim, beyond a repeated argument that you don’t think the Brewers have spent enough money this offseason despite the fact that it’s November 21st, I’m not sure what point you’re hoping to make here.

 

There just seems to be a disconnect in the concept that making a sound baseball decision doesn’t mean they’re just being cheap.

 

I just wanted Grandal back and I'm not willing to accept your declaration that it was a sound baseball decision to let him go. Again, if they upgrade, I'll be happy, though they'll need to at Catcher now, too, because Pina isn't the answer if Arcia plays at SS every day.

 

Mostly what I don't like about being a Brewers fan is the constant need to "get a good deal" on players. And what I think is the artificial constraint on fans to not get our hopes up about some players. We can only afford these others, over here, the less expensive ones. That part gets old.

 

Attanasio knew what he was buying with this franchise, small market included. He's been a fine owner. But if they're going to win a championship, maybe it means spending outside of his comfort zone.

[PeaveyFury]

I just wanted Grandal back and I'm not willing to accept your declaration that it was a sound baseball decision to let him go.

 

You don't have to accept it, but that doesn't mean it isn't actually true.

 

maybe it means spending outside of his comfort zone.

 

Maybe they already are.