Game 11: Packers @ 49ers - Sunday, November 24th, 7:20PM

[adambr2]

I think it's a little more difficult for people to temper their expectations of the Packers versus the Brewers , when the Packers have a quarterback who is very likely one of the all-time best quarterbacks ever, and mismanagement and roster blunders Galore have wasted many or most of his prime years.

 

Yes.

 

We've had HOF caliber quarterbacks for 20 years and have been to the Super Bowl once in that period. I think it's fair to expect more.

 

I temper expectations when it's warranted. I didn't expect a thing out of the Brewers in 2016 or 2017 and certainly didn't expect an NLCS in 2018.

 

Seems like many want us to be sold on the idea that we should just be happy if we can go out, maybe win a division, maybe win a playoff game, rinse and repeat. I don't buy it. I think when you have one of the greatest QBs ever maybe it's okay to expect a little more. The bottom line is that these last 8 years have been a failure. And it's okay to say that. We've had Aaron Rodgers and we have had playoff teams most years and we haven't been to the Super Bowl. That does not meet expectations nor should it.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Pretty sure no one has positively responded to "says the guy who" condescension either. Don't talk tough and expect people not call you out. You spent 3 pages arguing with nobody that the Packers aren't going to win the Super Bowl, all but declaring the season over because the gap with SF is too large. Teams get kicked around all the time, the Saints just got kicked around by Atlanta. I'll enjoy a return to the playoffs and hope they can find a new level in the next month. I'd feel pretty good about them not losing to SF by 30 if they get another chance. The Packers were eliminated twice by Giants teams twice that they beat, one of them that they completely blew out. This stuff happens. I'm not promising a Packers win but it happens.

 

I don't really care what the Packers have or haven't done for 20 years. I'm not going to pin futility from 2011-2018 on a 2nd year GM and first-year coach. They deserve the same clean slate as anybody anywhere. If we're still plateauing at 10-6 two years from now then yes, I'll entertain the "Packers wasted Rodgers" thing again.

 

They took over a descending team with a mess of a roster and have it going the right direction. For now, that's all I can reasonably ask. I'm not going to look at what the team did or didn't do 20 years ago and apply it to this year.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think it's a little more difficult for people to temper their expectations of the Packers versus the Brewers , when the Packers have a quarterback who is very likely one of the all-time best quarterbacks ever, and mismanagement and roster blunders Galore have wasted many or most of his prime years.

 

Yes.

 

We've had HOF caliber quarterbacks for 20 years and have been to the Super Bowl once in that period. I think it's fair to expect more.

 

I temper expectations when it's warranted. I didn't expect a thing out of the Brewers in 2016 or 2017 and certainly didn't expect an NLCS in 2018.

 

Seems like many want us to be sold on the idea that we should just be happy if we can go out, maybe win a division, maybe win a playoff game, rinse and repeat. I don't buy it. I think when you have one of the greatest QBs ever maybe it's okay to expect a little more. The bottom line is that these last 8 years have been a failure. And it's okay to say that. We've had Aaron Rodgers and we have had playoff teams most years and we haven't been to the Super Bowl. That does not meet expectations nor should it.

 

And how is this not entitlement? It would seem to me to be a pretty much a textbook example. There unfortunately is a pretty fine line between expectation and entitlement.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I feel as though the fans are justified in their anger for the team not getting back to the Super Bowl after 2010. That team was seen as one that hadn't even plateaued. But I'm out of the discussion when the current regime is held accountable for it. Time to turn the page.

[RollieTime]

 

Don't tell me to grow up again. You don't know me from any other poster on the net.

 

Stop pouting and people won't do that. I know you're the only one sulking because the Packers got their clock cleaned and acting like the season is over. You spent the night arguing this straw man that the Packers aren't going to win the Super Bowl. Something I think a very small minority of people think they will do this year.

 

Don't think I ever told you to grow up or stop sulking when you've beaten the horse to death on how bad instant replay is and how you want it gone, or any other time you've stood alone on something. Things like that don't help anyone. No one in the history of the Internet has ever responded to "Grow up" with a positive, open reaction. I have a right to express my disappointment, particularly in an IGT, as long as it falls within the rules of this board. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't need approval, either.

 

I don't think the season is over, I'm disappointed because I had to really lower expectations for the remainder of the season after last night because I just now see too big of a gap between the Packers and the top tier teams in the conference.

 

I also don't think more than a small minority of people probably expected to win the Super Bowl, but up until last night, I think there were a growing number of people that at least figured we had as good of chance as any to come out of the NFC.

 

You mean “fed the horse to plumpness” I assume?

[adambr2]

I'm not pinning this on MLF or Gute. I'm disappointed from a recent historical perspective, and I'm disappointed that we clearly have a ways to go yet, but I'm not disappointed in MLF or Gute. MLF has done very well to turn this around as quickly as possible, though I will say the Packers should have been better than their records were the last 2 years. There's no blaming MLF if this season only results in a WC and one and done. This is not a 1 year project. He has some learning to do and probably needs to hire his own DC, but there's no reason to think he shouldn't be a long-term guy here.

 

Gute is fine. He looks the same as 20 other league GMs to me. Probably should have moved on from Graham, but has had some really good signings. Has some really good picks even if the Gary pick looks not that great so far.

[adambr2]

I think it's a little more difficult for people to temper their expectations of the Packers versus the Brewers , when the Packers have a quarterback who is very likely one of the all-time best quarterbacks ever, and mismanagement and roster blunders Galore have wasted many or most of his prime years.

 

Yes.

 

We've had HOF caliber quarterbacks for 20 years and have been to the Super Bowl once in that period. I think it's fair to expect more.

 

I temper expectations when it's warranted. I didn't expect a thing out of the Brewers in 2016 or 2017 and certainly didn't expect an NLCS in 2018.

 

Seems like many want us to be sold on the idea that we should just be happy if we can go out, maybe win a division, maybe win a playoff game, rinse and repeat. I don't buy it. I think when you have one of the greatest QBs ever maybe it's okay to expect a little more. The bottom line is that these last 8 years have been a failure. And it's okay to say that. We've had Aaron Rodgers and we have had playoff teams most years and we haven't been to the Super Bowl. That does not meet expectations nor should it.

 

And how is this not entitlement? It would seem to me to be a pretty much a textbook example. There unfortunately is a pretty fine line between expectation and entitlement.

 

Well, I disagree with your application of the word "entitlement".

 

My oldest child is 15. He is a really smart, gifted kid, and athletic, great runner. If he squanders what he has and is living at home jobless in 10 years, I'll be disappointed, but I don't think he's entitled to success. He still has to go out and earn it.

 

In the same way, I don't think the Packers or their fans are entitled to any success. I don't think that's what this is. I think expectations have been high because they've had a gift of elite QB play for the last 27 years and have failed to meet expectations by squandering it most years.

 

Ted Thompson had the prime years of a HOF caliber quarterback to try to surround him with a talented enough team to compete for championships and chose instead to try to do things his way and only his way. It failed, and yeah, that's really disappointing. If you want to call it entitled, you have the right to your choice of words.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I guess my application of the word "entitlement" when it comes to fans entails an often unrealistic or extremely difficult to attain expectation for the team, while concurrently showing a lack of appreciation for the team should it fall short of attaining said expectation.

 

Is it realistic to "expect" multiple Super Bowl championships? The packers have, for the most part, been a competitive playoff-caliber team for more than 25 years. Yet you have a lot of fans that bemoan the idea that they have "only" won two championships during that time. I lived through cheering for this team in the 80s, and have heard so many stories about the frustrating 70s teams to know that success is fleeting, and very difficult to sustain. Perspective is important.

[RollieTime]

I have to agree that I don’t believe Packers fans are entitled. I think it is totally reasonable to say that the Packers should have more than 2 Super Bowl victories in about 30 years of having arguably 2 of the top 5 quarterbacks in the history of the NFL. Just like Brees should have more than 1 in his career. It’s just an observation and statement that even though there can only be 1 winner each year, some teams should just have more than 1 with how many years they have a top 5 QB in the game.

 

Even Eli Manning led the Giants to two since Rodgers has been a starter. He definitely isn’t anything special. And certainly didn’t have great seasons the two years they won it. Obviously having a great quarterback gets you to the postseason more often, but you need some help on offense and defense (and some good coaching/innovative play calling) and a GM to get you the guys you need. And that’s where we went wrong is the lack of talent around Rodgers for arguably the last 5-7 years outside of one or maybe two offensive threats each year on offense and a pretty void defense for the better part of that same time period.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Whenever this QB topic comes up I think people are too dismissive how big a role luck plays. The Packers have been a winning team for almost the entire duration of those two guys careers. Once you're in the playoffs, you have be really good but also lucky. There are scores of teams with top QBs that can't even make the playoffs. Then there are the seasons the Packers got really close, which in my book, is pretty much the same as winning it at least from the standpoint of the responsibility the front office has. I'm looking at 2003, 2011, 2014, teams that were good enough and the team didn't finish the deal. You can throw in 2007, 2016 teams that got one game from the Super Bowl. They lose Rodgers for huge chunks of two seasons, and in one of them still push the NFC runner up to near OT in the wild card. Even 2009, they get knocked out in OT.

 

It's not like the Packers won a Super Bowl and then put together a bunch of 5-11 seasons. They've been pretty similar to the Steelers for the last 20 years. What are the Saints exactly? They won it a year before the Packers and missed the playoffs four times.

 

When you actually start going down the line of teams the Packers have been a top 5 club. If you remove the outlier of the Patriots there is really nobody that's been clearly better. You can split hairs and point to things like Roethlisberger playing in three SBs, but I can't really look at them as clear evidence of the Packers organizational failure. There are just too many things that can go wrong, too many variables to ignore all the nuance and wrap it up with a simple statement like "the team failed Rodgers."

 

What role does he play, as the MVP, in throwing for 422 yards, 1 TD and 4 picks in two NFC Championship games? And they won one of those, btw.

 

I guess I'm just saying that Rodgers being in one vs. Ben being in three can really be chalked up to luck or bizarre crap like Brandon Bostick more so than the team being complicit in some mass shortcoming.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The Eli thing just as easily goes the other way IMO. He won it with a 10-6 and 9-7 team. You can't look at the Giants history over Rodgers career and say they've been better than the Packers. We're talking about a team that's going to miss the playoffs for the 9th time in 11 years. It's just not as simple as "they have this guy and our guy is better therefore we should have more titles."

 

IMO, the Packers have generally been as good as anyone could have hoped, even with those two guys, and I'd say they've had a rash of freak losses in the playoffs that contributed to this "wasted the QBs" thing.