Is ‘Boomer’ now a pejorative term?

[owbc]

I’d venture to say the expectations for college are a lot different too. I’d guess back when less went to college the degree alone was probably enough to land a job easily. Now the expectation is for everyone to go to college which then means a lot of supply compared to the demand. Now grades can be important or even essential and internships are quickly becoming a need. Those two things don’t leave a lot of free time to have a job while in school.

 

I knew many people that went into Sport Management which continues to be a pathetically outdated industry that insists on free labor via interns (usually a comical stipend is offered). Internships are often required to graduate in that major. So you are essentially paying to work.

 

This is a really important point and one that speaks to how expensive college is favoring students from privileged backgrounds who can afford to work for free. Or in many cases you work in exchange for college credit which means you are literally paying money (in credit hours) to work! The economic inequity is what worries me. There is no system in place for it other than "get scholarships" which of course tend to go to the students who already have a leg up. Working harder can only get you so far.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Unpaid internships should be against the law. Another predatory practice. There is a minimum wage yet we can pay an intern $0 under the guise of them being volunteers. They are "volunteers" in that if they don't work for free they won't have a career. No one should be subjected to that, and the companies that do it should be ashamed.

 

Hang on though - you have to pay for the credits when you take an internship for credit? I never did it, and always just assumed you took the internship and got the credits. It never dawned on me you had to pay for them. That seems insane to me. Where is the expense there that justifies the charge?

[MrTPlush]

Hang on though - you have to pay for the credits when you take an internship for credit? I never did it, and always just assumed you took the internship and got the credits. It never dawned on me you had to pay for them. That seems insane to me. Where is the expense there that justifies the charge?

 

There is no expense that justifies the charge. I think students usually have to do some basic reporting on what they are doing or what they did. Probably some type of reflection paper, but I am not entirely sure as I didn't personally do it. Isn't very shocking though. Online classes also have a premium price to take. I think the few times I did it there was a $250 or so charge for a three credit class. There ends up being little to no difference between the online class and the in class one. If there is a special online program you have to use through the book company you are the one that pays to get it, not the school...and many classes just go through the schools online portal that the in class people use to take assignments etc. I would say most students end up never talking to the teacher, teach themselves, and look at the same slides that are cycled through in the in class sessions. In reality it actually saves the school money as no one is in the classroom to waste heat/electricity/paper handouts etc.

 

As far as the income inequality someone hit on, yes, well off kids with huge support from their parents always tend to have a huge upper hand. However, the lowest on the totem pole kids are not the ones that struggle most with the finance side of things. Those kids get a pile of grants and if they were successful in high school are automatically to the front of the line when it comes to scholarships. To be exact if these low income kids are commuting they usually end up getting thousands of dollars in surplus grant money straight to their bank account. Which no, is not typically used for legitimate needs. Usually they buy stuff unrelated to school or if it is for school it is usually blown on an Apple computer...which is actually a horrendous laptop for college as most universities go through Windows/Microsoft.

 

Like I have said before the kids in the middle income brackets (specifically upper-middle) are the ones drawing the short end of the stick. No grants, unsubsidized federal loans, offered the minimum amount for federal loans, parents likely don't have the savings for college, and don't have an advantage when it comes to scholarships. If the parents don't provide major help these are the students piling up debt quickly. They are in this awkward position where their families don't have tons of extra cash laying around, but are well off enough that additional assistance is not provided.

[tmwiese55]

Good talk everyone.

 

I'd say the biggest summary on this specific Boomer vs young people and education topic is that when the boomer says "I did this hard work thing and sacrificed this, worked 2 jobs, etc if you would too you'd be fine" is that very many of the young people are doing those exact same things and still coming out with massive debt.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm aware of the online surcharge because I took my MBA entirely online, however at least at UWW it still ends up being an incredible bargain if you need to get an MBA, frankly I paid the surcharge happily in exchange for not leaving my house.

 

The internship credit cost doesn't make a lick of sense though. The school gets to outsource the cost of your seat in a class to whatever company or org you are doing it through. It isn't shocking when you think about it, just something I never even though of.

[PlayerHader]

As it pertains to student loans, most people are being told to sign on the dotted line without the slightest clue as to what they are doing. They are getting this advice from parents and trusted advisors who sell them dreams at the expense of their best interests. It is not productive or realistic to expect them to grasp this at 17, 18 years old. Even if you do explain it to most of them it is all fake numbers. They'll work one day and make lots of money! So it does nothing to explain that to a 17 y/o who's been dreaming of FSU for 4 years.

 

So, no, I'm not going to blame people for figuring this out on their own 10 years later and being upset. The people who care about them should have done better. And I laugh when "boomers" go on about this. They were going to college for $600 a semester. It's one topic they should really sit down and shut up about.

 

Not to go too far off topic, but this is exactly why every high school should require students to take a personal finance course or 3. This is such a big decision for such a large percentage of the student population, these kids should be thoroughly aware of how much debt they'll have at the end...what their payment will be...what kind of salary they can expect...what that means for take-home pay...income to debt ratios for buying a house. I believe I was way ahead of the curve(for my age) with understanding the finance side of things at age 17 when I had to make these decisions(currently a CPA)...but looking back I probably understood about 10% of what I needed to understand to make an informed decision.

 

That said, you make a choice and you have to live with the consequences. Literally everyone can do more to live a more frugal lifestyle to improve their long-term outlook...and in many cases that includes cutting back on some things to pay back student loans faster. There's plenty that can be done going forward to prevent the next generation from encountering a similar issue.

 

I hear the bolded often, but with the VAST majority of high school students, personal finance is an abstract idea. I have a younger family member who LOVES to put posts on social media wishing schools would have taught about investing/paying taxes/balancing a checkbook/etc...rather than quadratic equations and narrative structure. Here's the thing: Wisconsin has required all high schoolers to have taken a personal finance course in order to graduate long before she graduated high school. She absolutely was taught those things, unless her HS business/math instructor was not doing his/her job.

 

Kids ARE being taught foundational concepts of personal finance, including the power of compound interest, investing, budgeting, debt management, etc... but those things are of zero concern to you when you are 16 years old.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

When has WI "required" that? That seems like an odd requirement and one that I definitely did not have, and I'm not THAT old, and I went to what is widely considered the #1 or #2 public high school in the state. Your district may have, but that doesn't mean WI does.

[tmwiese55]

There was a class in my HS called something like "Consumer Math" and it was about these type of topics. It for sure wasn't required though, and frankly it was kind of the 'math' class for people who couldn't or didn't want to go any further in the traditional math track like Algebra, Calculus, etc. You can imagine how serious people took the class

[KeithStone53151]

It's fuzzy, but I may have taken one as an elective class in high school. But the version I recall was simply out of touch. I was also required to take a much better version of this class in college, which helped immensely with decisions I made from ages 21-24 that were seriously game-changing financial decisions in the best possible way. If I had my way, that college version of the course would be required in high school...with a massive emphasis on student loans and how they impact your financial situation in the future. If kids still leave high school and make dumb decisions, well it is what it is at that point. You can lead a horse to water.......

[PlayerHader]

When has WI "required" that? That seems like an odd requirement and one that I definitely did not have, and I'm not THAT old, and I went to what is widely considered the #1 or #2 public high school in the state. Your district may have, but that doesn't mean WI does.

 

I’m slightly wrong. The state doesn’t require a course to graduate, but it does require each district to have a K12 financial literacy curriculum in place. The district I currently work for does require a semester in high school, and the school I graduated from in 2003 has a required course (which I didn’t pay much attention to because I was a dumb teenager). My personal experience lead me to assume, I suppose.

[FVBrewerFan]

Good talk everyone.

 

I'd say the biggest summary on this specific Boomer vs young people and education topic is that when the boomer says "I did this hard work thing and sacrificed this, worked 2 jobs, etc if you would too you'd be fine" is that very many of the young people are doing those exact same things and still coming out with massive debt.

 

Then they're going to achools they can't afford. Delay going to college a year or two, start off at a two year school, live at home for all or part of the time. Maybe stidy more in HS so tou get a scholarship to your dream school. You simply don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree. At least not in WI.

 

What I noticed at the HS my kids attended, most wanted to go to Madison, and if not it better be a prestigious university out of state. Well, you know what, maybe you can't afford that. I couldn't either, but I'm not complaining about it.

[trwi7]

Then they're going to achools they can't afford. Delay going to college a year or two, start off at a two year school, live at home for all or part of the time. Maybe stidy more in HS so tou get a scholarship to your dream school. You simply don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree. At least not in WI.

 

What I noticed at the HS my kids attended, most wanted to go to Madison, and if not it better be a prestigious university out of state. Well, you know what, maybe you can't afford that. I couldn't either, but I'm not complaining about it.

 

Ok boomer.

[PlayerHader]

Then they're going to achools they can't afford. Delay going to college a year or two, start off at a two year school, live at home for all or part of the time. Maybe stidy more in HS so tou get a scholarship to your dream school. You simply don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree. At least not in WI.

 

What I noticed at the HS my kids attended, most wanted to go to Madison, and if not it better be a prestigious university out of state. Well, you know what, maybe you can't afford that. I couldn't either, but I'm not complaining about it.

 

Ok boomer.

 

Very counterproductive post. Way to contribute.

 

I'm 34 years old. Not a boomer in the least. Technically I'm a millennial. My path to college graduation was probably in the bottom quartile when it came to efficiency. I entered college out of high school, and it took me 6.5 years and 3 schools to graduate with a BS in English and Education. Even with my extended stay, I managed to get out with "only" about $26,000 in student loans, mostly because I also stumbled into a few "correct" choices along the way.

 

I spent my first two years at one of the UW colleges. One renting out a cheap apartment, and one commuting from home. My 3rd year I went to UW-Madison, mostly because I always wanted to, not because my desired field dictated it. I actually did not even have a clear path yet at this point, narrowing my options down to journalism and education. A somewhat directionless student isn't likely to get into the education program at Madison, and I didn't. I ended up going to UWSP after that. A surprising number of courses at UW didn't transfer directly to requirements at SP, so I spent 3 years there. Two paying rent with some guys at an off campus apartment and one living with my brother in Wausau and commuting. Fall of 2009 was my student-teaching semester (which I had to pay tuition for).

 

How'd I keep my debt down to a reasonable amount? Well, I probably had $1500-2000 scholarship money out of high school. That helped pay for a decent chunk of tuition/books my first semester at UWMC. I worked construction every summer. I wasn't a great saver, but I'd still finish the summer with at least a few thousand dollars to put toward school in the fall. A few years I worked construction over winter break if hours were available. I worked at Eastbay one semester in Wausau and Fleet Farm one semester in Point. I "donated" plasma, but that ended up going to bars and pizza places in SP. I ran out the clock long enough that I actually received some Pell Grant money at the end, so that knocked about $3000 off what the final number would have been. I also had a couple thousand dollars of CC debt upon graduating, much of that probably having been spent on pizza, burgers and Chinese food in Madison and SP.

 

I never went on a Spring Break trip. I didn't study abroad. To be fair, at the time I had no interest in either really, so I won't say I sacrificed.

 

Disclaimer: I graduated 10 years ago, and until recent years, costs continued to skyrocket after my graduation. My point isn't to say that ANYBODY can get a college degree without taking on crippling debt. I do think that the vast majority can, though.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Study abroad isn't all that expensive depending on what you do. A lot of the schools simply charge the home tuition as part of the program and you just fly over there.

 

Again with the live at home thing...that keeps being trotted out here as though it is an option for 100% of people and it's just not. This wasn't my experience but I knew people kicked out at 18 or parents that just didn't want a 20 year old living at their house for free. Then you have alcoholics and addicts that people really aren't in the mood to live with once they don't have to...I think you both are drastically overstating the % of people that refuse to do anything but go out of state. I would say that most people in a financial crunch go to a state school. You run into a problem with doctors or other specialized careers where getting into a top program actually does matter a lot. WI is lucky that it has UW med school but that is just in WI.

 

You will probably disagree with me here and play the walking uphill both ways card, but I don't think money should be something that prevents a person from getting quality specialized education. If you are studying accounting then just go to UW-W, it is just not the simple when you get into law, medicine, etc...and the argument that they'll make so much money it doesn't matter it is just not true anymore. There are also less lucrative but "good" careers that require advanced degrees. Ex., things like social work, research fields, etc. But I recommend reading some of the subs on Reddit sometime...it is full of people driven to the brink from med school debt...they want to finish but don't know if they can because they owe a 4 BR house before they're even done.

 

Even if you are a general practice MD, $250k is a major problem for anyone just starting out. The statement that you don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree in WI is true. I will concede that it is.

 

It gets more complicated when you begin to talk about what that degree is in. This also assumes you get into Madison. I went to Whitefish Bay, and there were LOTS of extremely bright students who didn't get in. I believe at the time, class rank was used, I don't know if that's still the case. A 3.8 GPA in my class would've crushed you from getting into any school that used class rank. You wouldn't have been in the top 1/5 of the class.

 

What about those that pursue higher ed later in life with families? There are just too many variables to boil this down to "live at home," and "they're irresponsible with money." I wish there would be some appreciation for the nuances of the conversation from the other side here.

[tmwiese55]

Soooo, you did all that stuff correctly, cheaply, etc and worked hard and still ended up 26K in debt. Again, that's the point here that they're making. Then tack on other people's situations without such options you had or who's fields required specific schools.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Soooo, you did all that stuff correctly, cheaply, etc and worked hard and still ended up 26K in debt. Again, that's the point here that they're making.

 

Which, based on the timeline, was actually well above the average debt load upon graduation. $26k was the exact average amount just a couple years ago. But average is misleading as we all know, the median would be a better measure.

[PlayerHader]

Soooo, you did all that stuff correctly, cheaply, etc and worked hard and still ended up 26K in debt. Again, that's the point here that they're making. Then tack on other people's situations without such options you had or who's fields required specific schools.

 

I took 6.5 years go get a 4 year degree. I went to the most expensive state school just because I wanted to for a year. I only worked 2 out of 13 semesters. My point wasn't that I did SO many things correctly.

 

I did work hard in the summer, I'll give you that. I was OK with going to the local 2-year first rather than Madison right away. That decision alone probably saved me $20k. I don't think exiting college $26k in debt is outrageous, particularly since it got me into a career field that required it.

[PlayerHader]

Study abroad isn't all that expensive depending on what you do. A lot of the schools simply charge the home tuition as part of the program and you just fly over there.

 

Again with the live at home thing...that keeps being trotted out here as though it is an option for 100% of people and it's just not. This wasn't my experience but I knew people kicked out at 18 or parents that just didn't want a 20 year old living at their house for free. Then you have alcoholics and addicts that people really aren't in the mood to live with once they don't have to...I think you both are drastically overstating the % of people that refuse to do anything but go out of state. I would say that most people in a financial crunch go to a state school. You run into a problem with doctors or other specialized careers where getting into a top program actually does matter a lot. WI is lucky that it has UW med school but that is just in WI.

 

You will probably disagree with me here and play the walking uphill both ways card, but I don't think money should be something that prevents a person from getting quality specialized education. If you are studying accounting then just go to UW-W, it is just not the simple when you get into law, medicine, etc...and the argument that they'll make so much money it doesn't matter it is just not true anymore. There are also less lucrative but "good" careers that require advanced degrees. Ex., things like social work, research fields, etc. But I recommend reading some of the subs on Reddit sometime...it is full of people driven to the brink from med school debt...they want to finish but don't know if they can because they owe a 4 BR house before they're even done.

 

Even if you are a general practice MD, $250k is a major problem for anyone just starting out. The statement that you don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree in WI is true. I will concede that it is.

 

It gets more complicated when you begin to talk about what that degree is in. This also assumes you get into Madison. I went to Whitefish Bay, and there were LOTS of extremely bright students who didn't get in. I believe at the time, class rank was used, I don't know if that's still the case. A 3.8 GPA in my class would've crushed you from getting into any school that used class rank. You wouldn't have been in the top 1/5 of the class.

 

What about those that pursue higher ed later in life with families? There are just too many variables to boil this down to "live at home," and "they're irresponsible with money." I wish there would be some appreciation for the nuances of the conversation from the other side here.

 

I was able to live with family and commute for 2 of my 6 years. It was a positive financially, and I'll admit that isn't an option for everybody.

 

I think I understand there is a lot of nuance. My point wasn't that everybody could get a degree with little or no debt. I don't consider my $26k to be crippling debt in any way. I wasn't going to a lucrative field, but I knew I'd make more than that in salary in year 1. Had I been wiser at the time, I could have probably graduated with the same degree with half that debt. I can see how debt can easily spiral out of control for someone committed to a career path. My point was more to the idea that there are choices we all make that could help blow that final debt number up OR keep it more reasonable.

[tmwiese55]

I wouldn't use the word outrageous for that much either. But again, you did all those things cheaply you mentioned, had a degree that could be done anywhere and isn't specialized. Not everyone has the options you had. And again, you still ended up 26K in debt which will probably cost more than double that to pay off with the interest and everything. And don't forget you're in WI which is cheaper end of college and COL. You're basically stating the case of the problem here but just chalking it up as "not that bad".

 

Along with all the other points made in the thread. Now add in how much better you and the national economy would be with your 300-400/month extra in spending power (with the millions of other people) to be used to help you get ahead but also spur the economy. As you're getting at and OSS said, it's not like you and most won't survive and can't come out just fine, but that doesn't mean the system can't be improved. And specific to the 'boomer' talk, this problem didn't exist for them and essentially the 'boomer' created the problem and is subsequently blaming it on the young person.

[homer]

Then they're going to achools they can't afford. Delay going to college a year or two, start off at a two year school, live at home for all or part of the time. Maybe stidy more in HS so tou get a scholarship to your dream school. You simply don't need to take on massive debt to get a degree. At least not in WI.

 

What I noticed at the HS my kids attended, most wanted to go to Madison, and if not it better be a prestigious university out of state. Well, you know what, maybe you can't afford that. I couldn't either, but I'm not complaining about it.

 

Ok boomer.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I graduated 10 years ago, and until recent years, costs continued to skyrocket after my graduation. My point isn't to say that ANYBODY can get a college degree without taking on crippling debt. I do think that the vast majority can, though.

 

 

But 26K, while not cripling, is a ton of debt. I graduated from UW in 1996 with $2300 in debt and that was without hardly any parental help. Like I posted earlier if tuition simply rose with inflation a semester at Madison would be like $2150 now. It's $5350.

 

I do think a lot of people get degrees that should probably be going to tech school. The trades are in dire need of new blood. Heck the ironworkers union here in Illinois will pay you $22 an hour to go to school to become an ironworker.

[PlayerHader]

I wouldn't use the word outrageous for that much either. But again, you did all those things cheaply you mentioned, had a degree that could be done anywhere and isn't specialized. Not everyone has the options you had. And again, you still ended up 26K in debt which will probably cost more than double that to pay off with the interest and everything. And don't forget you're in WI which is cheaper end of college and COL. You're basically stating the case of the problem here but just chalking it up as "not that bad".

 

Along with all the other points made in the thread. Now add in how much better you and the national economy would be with your 300-400/month extra in spending power (with the millions of other people) to be used to help you get ahead but also spur the economy. As you're getting at and OSS said, it's not like you and most won't survive and can't come out just fine, but that doesn't mean the system can't be improved. And specific to the 'boomer' talk, this problem didn't exist for them and essentially the 'boomer' created the problem and is subsequently blaming it on the young person.

 

Loans were actually paid off about 4 years ago. Learned a lot about debt and management afterward and made it a priority...and sold a home with a little profit.

 

I'm not opposed to some sort of forgiveness program, but it has to be accompanied by changes that will rein in costs going forward. Government subsidized student loans and the inability to default on student loans make for a horrible situation. Debt responsibility should be shared between students, the school that says it is giving them a career path, and the financial institutions that are so happily giving out loans that they know are guaranteed and can't be defaulted on.

 

I agree with much of what you say. I've decided not to look at this as a "boomer" vs us issue. I've long been annoyed by folks ripping on Millennial, and I find this "ok boomer" thing to be equally useless and counterproductive.

[PlayerHader]

 

Ok boomer.

 

 

 

Disclaimer: I graduated 10 years ago, and until recent years, costs continued to skyrocket after my graduation. My point isn't to say that ANYBODY can get a college degree without taking on crippling debt. I do think that the vast majority can, though.

 

 

But 26K, while not cripling, is a ton of debt. I graduated from UW in 1996 with $2300 in debt and that was without hardly any parental help. Like I posted earlier if tuition simply rose with inflation a semester at Madison would be like $2150 now. It's $5350.

 

I do think a lot of people get degrees that should probably be going to tech school. The trades are in dire need of new blood. Heck the ironworkers union here in Illinois will pay you $22 an hour to go to school to become an ironworker.

 

If we'd talk in depth, we probably share a common ground regarding most of the nuance of this topic.

 

$26k is nothing to scoff at, but it's not a bad "investment" for the career field that I chose. Keeping your college debt around your first year's salary isn't crippling at all. If you get out without debt (and I have friends who've done this either through parents paying for everything or them busting their butt and showing tremendous discipline), financial freedom early in life is at your fingertips.

[homer]

Yes, I agree that the type of degree vs amount of debt matters. You can't go to Lawrence for undergrad, accrue $150K of debt and then become a social worker. I mean you CAN but there are probably better places to get the degree for that sort of thing.

[KeithStone53151]

Soooo, you did all that stuff correctly, cheaply, etc and worked hard and still ended up 26K in debt. Again, that's the point here that they're making. Then tack on other people's situations without such options you had or who's fields required specific schools.

 

I did most if not all the right financial things while in college, going to a lesser UW school than Madison, and walked out something like $23k in debt after 5 years(150 credits required for CPA). And frankly, I don't see anything wrong with that amount of debt...it really shouldn't be difficult to pay that down in your first handful of years after college. When you walk out of college, most people will walk into a job paying something like $45-55k a year. Some better, some worse depending on your field...but a good chunk of people walk out into that range. That's probably something like $2.8-3.5k per month after taxes/benefits/etc. Most walk out with no kids, no mortgage, probably wind up with a car payment, but very little of that take home is fixed into big stuff like that. There's absolutely no reason most kids can't be pumping $600-800 or more per month into their student loan debt and getting it paid down in 4-5 years...or at minimum taking a massive chunk out of it the first 2-3 years before the other big stuff starts popping up. But most kids don't understand that(insert required personal finance course). Shiny new tv, $900 for the newest iphone, $100+ a night at the bar 3-4 nights a week...and instead make the minimum payments on their student loan debt and take 20 years to pay it off...complaining the last 15 about how they shouldn't have to pay for it.

[PlayerHader]

Agree entirely with the push to direct students to trades and technical schools. Heck, I consider going into the trades at 35 sometimes (some disagree around here, but summers off doesn't alleviate the stress of working with other people's kids all day). I think this is happening quite a bit, at least in the rural schools that I am familiar with. The emphasis is to get students college and career ready. The second part is important, as well, and is certainly stressed.