Hader trade ideas

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

This would be 1000% false, but thanks for making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be anything other then my own thoughts on it. It doesn't make it factual, and it doesn't make it not factual. It's called an opinion. Stearns will do whatever he's going to do, and to this point, he has done a pretty damn good job. My ONLY complaint with him is he doesn't use free agency as much as I would like(I'm talking as far as bigger signings).

 

I think this is the core of all the issues you've had, though. You keep insisting, rather bluntly many times, that David Stearns be something that he has proven time and time again not to be. You want him to be impulsive, aggressive and, frankly, careless when it comes to player acquisition. I just think the guy has a long enough track record to prove now that that's just not the way he's going to operate. Every move the guy makes is researched and measured, then measured again. He operates 100% based on value, which means he is hardly ever going to make the big signings and trade for the "bigger" names that you crave.

 

In a lot of ways, I agree with you. I'd love to see the team acquire a proven TOR starter, and a proven high average power bat to play 3B. But those guys are the "name" guys, and they cost a lot in both money and prospect capital, which are things the Brewers just don't have a lot of right now. So what we are left with is a GM that has chosen to build the team by focusing on underappreciated and undervalued players, taking risks in the process. It really is what it is. That's the way they are going to do it for the immediate future. If you don't get on board with that philosophy, you're going to be a very unhappy, frustrated fan.

[mattyo]

So what you are telling me is that Yankee fans are spreading internet rumors that they are on the verge of trading a couple of players that they have no place on their starting roster for (spare parts- 3B Miguel Andujar and OF Clint Frazier) to the "lowly" Brewers for the best reliever in baseball?

 

No....not Yankee fans!

 

I would speculate that these rumors are bunk.

 

Instead of refreshing this thread every couple of minutes during the holidays, I'd suggest checking back in mid-July ONLY if the Brewers are not contending.

 

If there is one thing that sticks out during this saga it is that Yankees fans are absolutely insufferable. Maybe we are lucky all we have to deal with are cubs and cards fans?

[homer]

Let's make sure we keep this thread about Hader trade ideas. Thanks.

[clancyphile]

This would be 1000% false, but thanks for making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be anything other then my own thoughts on it. It doesn't make it factual, and it doesn't make it not factual. It's called an opinion. Stearns will do whatever he's going to do, and to this point, he has done a pretty damn good job. My ONLY complaint with him is he doesn't use free agency as much as I would like(I'm talking as far as bigger signings).

 

I think this is the core of all the issues you've had, though. You keep insisting, rather bluntly many times, that David Stearns be something that he has proven time and time again not to be. You want him to be impulsive, aggressive and, frankly, careless when it comes to player acquisition. I just think the guy has a long enough track record to prove now that that's just not the way he's going to operate. Every move the guy makes is researched and measured, then measured again. He operates 100% based on value, which means he is hardly ever going to make the big signings and trade for the "bigger" names that you crave.

 

In a lot of ways, I agree with you. I'd love to see the team acquire a proven TOR starter, and a proven high average power bat to play 3B. But those guys are the "name" guys, and they cost a lot in both money and prospect capital, which are things the Brewers just don't have a lot of right now. So what we are left with is a GM that has chosen to build the team by focusing on underappreciated and undervalued players, taking risks in the process. It really is what it is. That's the way they are going to do it for the immediate future. If you don't get on board with that philosophy, you're going to be a very unhappy, frustrated fan.

 

Look, the Milwaukee Brewers are not going to get TOR starters unless they develop or trade for them. they won't get proven high-average power hitters unless they develop or trade for them.

 

I got my heart broken after `92 when Molitor left. Then, it was dealing with the realities of the Burnitz and Cirillo trades - and how poorly they turned out.

 

This team needs to get its farm system in order. If that means a lower payroll at the MLB level, so be it.

[Brewcrewin07]

This would be 1000% false, but thanks for making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be anything other then my own thoughts on it. It doesn't make it factual, and it doesn't make it not factual. It's called an opinion. Stearns will do whatever he's going to do, and to this point, he has done a pretty damn good job. My ONLY complaint with him is he doesn't use free agency as much as I would like(I'm talking as far as bigger signings).

 

I think this is the core of all the issues you've had, though. You keep insisting, rather bluntly many times, that David Stearns be something that he has proven time and time again not to be. You want him to be impulsive, aggressive and, frankly, careless when it comes to player acquisition. I just think the guy has a long enough track record to prove now that that's just not the way he's going to operate. Every move the guy makes is researched and measured, then measured again. He operates 100% based on value, which means he is hardly ever going to make the big signings and trade for the "bigger" names that you crave.

 

In a lot of ways, I agree with you. I'd love to see the team acquire a proven TOR starter, and a proven high average power bat to play 3B. But those guys are the "name" guys, and they cost a lot in both money and prospect capital, which are things the Brewers just don't have a lot of right now. So what we are left with is a GM that has chosen to build the team by focusing on underappreciated and undervalued players, taking risks in the process. It really is what it is. That's the way they are going to do it for the immediate future. If you don't get on board with that philosophy, you're going to be a very unhappy, frustrated fan.

 

I don't want to steer this off topic, but this brings up, to me, a perfect comparison. Ted Thompson(Who I despised), always blatantly ignored free agency, at least as far as big names go. He built his roster(s), essentially the same way Stearns does, with cheap, young players. Eventually what happened(as I knew it would), is the roster became terrible when injuries hit(they had no veteran depth at minimum) to get them through. They got so bad, they had losing records, and he eventually lost his job. Ironically the few times he did sign "name" guys in Free agency(think, Charles Woodson, Ryan Pickett etc) it worked out great. Fast forward to last year...what did they do?? Went out and revamped the defense by signing big $$ players in Preston Smith, Zhadarius Smith, and Adrian Amos. Andddddd just like that, their defense became a TON better. "Big name" free agency works EXACTLY the way it's supposed to, if you sign the right guys. Very similar in how Stearns mines for bargains, the same theory applies to big name FA's as well. Yes, i get it, the sports are different etc, but the concepts are the same.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

This would be 1000% false, but thanks for making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be anything other then my own thoughts on it. It doesn't make it factual, and it doesn't make it not factual. It's called an opinion. Stearns will do whatever he's going to do, and to this point, he has done a pretty damn good job. My ONLY complaint with him is he doesn't use free agency as much as I would like(I'm talking as far as bigger signings).

 

I think this is the core of all the issues you've had, though. You keep insisting, rather bluntly many times, that David Stearns be something that he has proven time and time again not to be. You want him to be impulsive, aggressive and, frankly, careless when it comes to player acquisition. I just think the guy has a long enough track record to prove now that that's just not the way he's going to operate. Every move the guy makes is researched and measured, then measured again. He operates 100% based on value, which means he is hardly ever going to make the big signings and trade for the "bigger" names that you crave.

 

In a lot of ways, I agree with you. I'd love to see the team acquire a proven TOR starter, and a proven high average power bat to play 3B. But those guys are the "name" guys, and they cost a lot in both money and prospect capital, which are things the Brewers just don't have a lot of right now. So what we are left with is a GM that has chosen to build the team by focusing on underappreciated and undervalued players, taking risks in the process. It really is what it is. That's the way they are going to do it for the immediate future. If you don't get on board with that philosophy, you're going to be a very unhappy, frustrated fan.

 

I don't want to steer this off topic, but this brings up, to me, a perfect comparison. Ted Thompson(Who I despised), always blatantly ignored free agency, at least as far as big names go. He built his roster(s), essentially the same way Stearns does, with cheap, young players. Eventually what happened(as I knew it would), is the roster became terrible when injuries hit(they had no veteran depth at minimum) to get them through. They got so bad, they had losing records, and he eventually lost his job. Ironically the few times he did sign "name" guys in Free agency(think, Charles Woodson, Ryan Pickett etc) it worked out great. Fast forward to last year...what did they do?? Went out and revamped the defense by signing big $$ players in Preston Smith, Zhadarius Smith, and Adrian Amos. Andddddd just like that, their defense became a TON better. "Big name" free agency works EXACTLY the way it's supposed to, if you sign the right guys. Very similar in how Stearns mines for bargains, the same theory applies to big name FA's as well. Yes, i get it, the sports are different etc, but the concepts are the same.

 

The NFL's salary cap puts teams on a much more even playing field when it comes to signing free agents. The NFL also shares revenue in a much greater capacity than MLB, which means most teams are created equal when it comes to having money available for player acquisition. I believe that MLB will eventually have to go this route, as the divide between the "haves" and "have nots" is currently as great as it's ever been. Comparing team building in the NFL to MLB is comparing apples and oranges

 

Bringing it back to Hader, that's why the Brewers are even considering trading him. He's the best reliever in baseball, but because of the arbitration system, a limited revenue team like the Brewers simply cannot devote that large of a portion of its payroll to him. The Yankees don't care, because money is no object. The best the Brewers can hope for is that a team like the Yankees is willing to make an even, balanced deal. Or they can hang on to Hader, hope he is lights-out this season, and either deal him at the deadline (if they are not in contention) or look at dealing him next offseason. It sucks, but that's the current state of baseball.

[trwi7]

He built his roster(s), essentially the same way Stearns does, with cheap, young players.

 

In 2017 the Brewers had 3 regular position players 30 or older and 2 24 or younger. Everyone else was 26 or 27 years old. We had 6 pitchers make 14 or more starts the youngest of which was 24 years old, the others were 27, 28, 29, 32 and 33.

 

In 2018 he went and signed a 32 year old to a 5 year contract, had two more starters in their 30s and had one player under the age of 25 as a regular starter. Of the 6 players who made at least 14 starts, only one was under the age of 28(!) This includes 4 of those 6 starters being at least 30.

 

This year 5 of our 8 regular starters were at least 30 years old and 3 of our 6 starters who started at least 17 games were over 30.

 

Going back to our 2016 prospect list from MLB Pipeline Stearns has traded 7 of our top 10 prospects for major league help.

[brewerhuman]

To circle back to my post a while back, the likelihood of this account knowing this and nobody else is so unlikely.

 

 

To me, there's no way the Brewers would lower their asking price to allow a trade to the Yankees when there are a handful of teams with better farm systems and a more pressing need for Hader (though I fully acknowledge that those handful of teams might not have interest right now) that could still be in the mix. The logic does not add up, other than this account tweeting stuff so that people continue to interact/click/follow them.

[brewtank34]

Where’s Monty? Didn’t he break the Urias trade? I need me some nuggets.

[walleye]

If this was the trade deadline and Hader was a pending FA then maybe but 4 years left of team control there’s no way Milwaukee lowers the asking price.

[brewerfan82]

If this was the trade deadline and Hader was a pending FA then maybe but two years left of team control there’s no way Milwaukee lowers the asking price.

* 4 years of control left

[82brewcrew82]

This would be 1000% false, but thanks for making an assumption. It wasn't meant to be anything other then my own thoughts on it. It doesn't make it factual, and it doesn't make it not factual. It's called an opinion. Stearns will do whatever he's going to do, and to this point, he has done a pretty damn good job. My ONLY complaint with him is he doesn't use free agency as much as I would like(I'm talking as far as bigger signings).

Um, yes it does. A fact can be proven true or false, an opinion cannot. Your (or anyone else's) opinion is, quite literally, not a fact.

 

I don't want to steer this off topic, but...

 

Why not? It's what you do...in literally every thread...with literally the exact same point.

 

this brings up, to me, a perfect comparison. Ted Thompson(Who I despised), always blatantly ignored free agency, at least as far as big names go. He built his roster(s), essentially the same way Stearns does, with cheap, young players. Eventually what happened(as I knew it would), is the roster became terrible when injuries hit(they had no veteran depth at minimum) to get them through. They got so bad, they had losing records, and he eventually lost his job. Ironically the few times he did sign "name" guys in Free agency(think, Charles Woodson, Ryan Pickett etc) it worked out great. Fast forward to last year...what did they do?? Went out and revamped the defense by signing big $$ players in Preston Smith, Zhadarius Smith, and Adrian Amos. Andddddd just like that, their defense became a TON better.

So Thompson never signed big name free agents except those times when he did? I'd say at least one, if not both, of those losing seasons had to do with losing one of the better QBs in the game due to injury, not just lack of veteren depth. I'd further suggest that most any team that lost a QB of that caliber would be in jeopardy of having a losing season which says nothing of the number of other significant injuries the packers sustained in those two years which, again, would torpedo most any team in the league. All of this in no way addresses the comically wide gulf that represents the financial architecture of the two sports which makes any comparison between the two apples and oranges.

 

In any case, if signing "name" free agents is the key to playoff appearances, how do you explain one very near miss and two years of playoff appearances for the Brewers during DSs tenure without utilizing your magic potion for success? If they don't have veteran depth, and veteran depth is the key to success by your measure, how did they overcome significant injures to their best starter this year (Woodruff) and last (Nelson) and best positional player this year (Yelich)?

 

 

 

"Big name" free agency works EXACTLY the way it's supposed to, if you sign the right guys. Very similar in how Stearns mines for bargains, the same theory applies to big name FA's as well. Yes, i get it, the sports are different etc, but the concepts are the same.

No, they really are not and even if they were your theory is easily disproven. The 2018 Phillies spent big on "name" free agents like Arietta and Harper and that didn't work out all that well. It just isn't a formula with a guaranteed result.

[82brewcrew82]

Hader is a valuable asset and his future needs to be handled carefully by the Brewers. I get that some folks think the moon is the target but I am of the opinion that we will never see that type of return for Hader. If, hypothetically, you were to come to the same conclusion as me, when then do you trade Hader? Never? That seems short sighted and a poor way to run an organization like the Brewers. At some point he needs to be turned over for more controllable assets and, ideally, you do that at his peak...which is now.

[82brewcrew82]

So no GM in the history of baseball has totally fleeced another team, and then never ever made another trade after that?? Ok sure. You have to remember, even if Stearns takes a hardline stance on players and asks for the moon, the other team still has to be willing to give that up, and if they do, that's on them, isn't it??

Sure, but isn't also incumbent on DS to come off of asking for the moon is no one is willing to give it? I happen to think the use of analytics has made "fleecing" in trades less common unless you are a team that is literally one player away from a really dominant team, then you may see an overpay but it is not going to be all that common moving forward. I also think we are in an era where we have some really good GMs all over the league. Thus, expecting the other side to be dumb enough to be "fleeced" is asking a lot in my opinion.

 

Hader is worth whatever the top price is that another team is willing to pay whether we like that or not. The only question is whether he is worth more to us than he is to any other team. A team like the Brewers HAS to turn assets like Hader in order to stay successful long term.

[fleehaw]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

[clancyphile]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

Looks very interesting...

[wntrtxn21]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

Unless Stearns would flip Merrifield for a good 3B, no thanks. Where does Merrifield play? The Royals tried him at 3B a couple of years ago (2016/17) and it was a disaster. They quickly returned him to 2B. With Hiura at 2B he'd become the 4th or 5th OF and a backup 2B. The loss of Hader gives CC on of the worst pens in baseball and he still has a black hole at 3B.

[brewcrewdue80]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

You wouldn't make this trade for what the Yankees part with for Hader straight up. Yankees laugh this all off as they get what they wanted nowhere near touching what Stearns was asking for Hader. But I suppose you add Garcia from the Yankees to Milw and youre making the trade idea work a little better. Not that I believe Garcia will ever see success in a Starters role. The Yankees are getting the best player here and nothing they sent to KC approaches the Royals getting a best player value in return. They at least can bat Andujar DH.

Oh and Merrifield fits 2b not SS or 3b. So time to move on from the trade idea.

[anglotiger]

If this was the trade deadline and Hader was a pending FA then maybe but two years left of team control there’s no way Milwaukee lowers the asking price.

 

Perhaps the asking price was Torres and/or Severino? That sort of thing is the only way that I can see the asking price dropping...

[Devinep]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

Unless Stearns would flip Merrifield for a good 3B, no thanks. Where does Merrifield play? The Royals tried him at 3B a couple of years ago (2016/17) and it was a disaster. They quickly returned him to 2B. With Hiura at 2B he'd become the 4th or 5th OF and a backup 2B. The loss of Hader gives CC on of the worst pens in baseball and he still has a black hole at 3B.

 

He played 6 games there. Not exactly enough to to make any determination on his ability there. Not playing much 3B might be telling though

[fleehaw]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

Unless Stearns would flip Merrifield for a good 3B, no thanks. Where does Merrifield play? The Royals tried him at 3B a couple of years ago (2016/17) and it was a disaster. They quickly returned him to 2B. With Hiura at 2B he'd become the 4th or 5th OF and a backup 2B. The loss of Hader gives CC on of the worst pens in baseball and he still has a black hole at 3B.

 

He played 6 games there. Not exactly enough to to make any determination on his ability there. Not playing much 3B might be telling though

 

True story. 31 innings in the pros (14 chances) and about 160 innings in the minors. Moose was signed to play 2b without having any experience there. This idea is in that vein. The brewers would have to be confident Merrifield could handle it.

[fleehaw]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

You wouldn't make this trade for what the Yankees part with for Hader straight up. Yankees laugh this all off as they get what they wanted nowhere near touching what Stearns was asking for Hader.

 

It really doesn’t matter what Stearns may or may not have asked for from the Yankees, it’s whether what the Brewers receive is deemed as appropriate value in the trade by the Brewers. The primary piece going to the Brewers is from the Royals. The Yankees pieces have value, but the Yankees and Brewers don’t match up well in a Hader deal IMO. The Yankees pieces fit in with the Royals a lot better. If the Brewers believe Merrifield can be their 3B, it’s a solid return.

[walleye]

If this was the trade deadline and Hader was a pending FA then maybe but two years left of team control there’s no way Milwaukee lowers the asking price.

* 4 years of control left

Sorry my bad ment to type in 4 guess the eyesight is the 1st thing to go lol

[brewcrewdue80]

Some more fodder for the offseason.

 

Brewers get Merrifield & Jordan Montgomery

Yankees get Hader

Royals get Andujar, Frazier, Ford, & Arcia

 

Brewers get their name 3B? (and cost certainty) and another lefty for the staff. Royals go for quantity with tons of control and some mlb success. Yankees turn their depth into Hader.

 

You wouldn't make this trade for what the Yankees part with for Hader straight up. Yankees laugh this all off as they get what they wanted nowhere near touching what Stearns was asking for Hader.

 

It really doesn’t matter what Stearns may or may not have asked for from the Yankees, it’s whether what the Brewers receive is deemed as appropriate value in the trade by the Brewers. The primary piece going to the Brewers is from the Royals. The Yankees pieces have value, but the Yankees and Brewers don’t match up well in a Hader deal IMO. The Yankees pieces fit in with the Royals a lot better. If the Brewers believe Merrifield can be their 3B, it’s a solid return.

 

I think it matter in trade value. Say NYY only sent 30mil to get 55mil in return. Milw sent 57mil to get 40in return and KC sent 40mil to get 32mil in return.

 

Its settling for less while giving up far more. We actually take on more money for 2019 and possibly 2020 when we are getting rid of Hader at his peak value for the simple reason he's going to get expensive(or cheap discount if you're the Yankees,..at a discount)

[fleehaw]

I think it matter in trade value. Say NYY only sent 30mil to get 55mil in return. Milw sent 57mil to get 40in return and KC sent 40mil to get 32mil in return.

 

Its settling for less while giving up far more. We actually take on more money for 2019 and possibly 2020 when we are getting rid of Hader at his peak value for the simple reason he's going to get expensive(or cheap discount if you're the Yankees,..at a discount)

 

You opine Hader (& Arcia) are worth more than Merrifield and Montgomery, that’s fair, but the Brewers actually save about 600K in 2020 in the deal based on arby estimates. Hader @ 4.6m, Montgomery @ 1.2m. Merrifield will make 5m and Arcia will make 2.2m.