Hader trade ideas

[wallus]

One of the Mets writers, sign me up for those three as a trade.

 

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1201501112425168896

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

How realistic is Hader for Thor? I feel like their values aren't THAT far off, I'm also not sure which side needs to add. Thor has 2 years of more expensive control for 4 of Hader, but SP vs RP...

 

The Mets are the type of team that can go out and add a Thor-type talent in Cole or Strasburg via free agency as a replacement. There is no Hader-level RP talent in free agency. Just adds to the idea that the return value would be huge. I don't know if the Brewers would view Thor as a potential return, but the idea cannot be dismissed out of hand.

[Warning Track Power]

How realistic is Hader for Thor? I feel like their values aren't THAT far off, I'm also not sure which side needs to add. Thor has 2 years of more expensive control for 4 of Hader, but SP vs RP...

That was the point of my earlier post. I think the value for the Mets SHOULD be about even given Thor doesn't pitch to his stuff whereas Hader does and the difference between SP and RP. If I am the Mets, I do this trade and re-sign Wheeler. A top 3 rotation of deGrom-Stroman-Wheeler-is potentially as good as anyone in the NL given the Nats may not have Strasburg and its unknown where Cole is going.If Diaz returns to previous form, a bullpen with Hader-Diaz is about as good as it gets.

 

If I am the Brewers, I am terrified by the fact that Thor doesn't pitch to his stuff and is a FA after two seasons. However, the small market Brewers window is likely closing in two years anyways, so it may make sense to try and make a deal for a "supposed" TOR arm. However, this deal scares me because I am not convinced Thor is a TOR guy. Hader will/should be dealt in my opinion. I think the Brewers will only deal Hader for something that rebuilds the farm at the highest level or returns something elite that helps the current window.

[brewcrewdue80]

What if the Brewers took Dylan Cease and the catcher Mccann from the White Sox?

[SRB]

Hader for Syndergaard and Smith would be tempting.

 

Our bullpen is suddenly shaky but part of the hole could be filled by Knebel returning. Might still have money to sign Wheeler and a couple other pieces...

 

CF Cain

RF Yelich

2B Hiura

1B Smith

LF Braun

3B Shaw/Frazier

SS Urias

C Pina

 

SP Syndergaard

SP Wheeler

SP Woodruff

SP Lauer

SP Burnes

 

CL Knebel

[Warning Track Power]

Hader for Syndergaard and Smith would be tempting.

 

Our bullpen is suddenly shaky but part of the hole could be filled by Knebel returning. Might still have money to sign Wheeler and a couple other pieces...

 

CF Cain

RF Yelich

2B Hiura

1B Smith

LF Braun

3B Shaw/Frazier

SS Urias

C Pina

 

SP Syndergaard

SP Wheeler

SP Woodruff

SP Lauer

SP Burnes

 

CL Knebel

I would be on board with trading Hader for Syndergaard and Smith and signing Wheeler. However, I think it is imperative they also re-sign Moustakas. With those three moves, I call it a day on the offseason (unless they can sign Betances as well for the bullpen).

[KeithStone53151]

Hader for Syndergaard and Smith would be tempting.

 

For both of those guys, we might have to add something to Hader to get it done...which frankly would be fine.

[bill hAll Star]

What if the Brewers took Dylan Cease and the catcher Mccann from the White Sox?

 

This would be a bad trade but if it was really the case, I'd decline McCann and tell the White Sox to keep him. He's due likely about $6 million in arbitration next year, offsetting the Hader savings and then some...and he's not nearly as good of a hitter as his numbers were last year. That was a huge aberration.

[nate82]

I put this in the other Hader thread but I think the Yankees make the most sense here.

 

Andujar and Garcia would be a very tempting offer.

[KeithStone53151]

I put this in the other Hader thread but I think the Yankees make the most sense here.

 

Andujar and Garcia would be a very tempting offer.

 

I don't like the idea of making a big trade with the Yankees, primarily because Cashman isn't an idiot and probably won't make a bad trade. Brodie on the other hand...yes let's do business with him.

[nate82]

I put this in the other Hader thread but I think the Yankees make the most sense here.

 

Andujar and Garcia would be a very tempting offer.

 

I don't like the idea of making a big trade with the Yankees, primarily because Cashman isn't an idiot and probably won't make a bad trade. Brodie on the other hand...yes let's do business with him.

 

That trade is pretty even for both the Yankees and the Brewers. Andujar has a lot of question marks on his defense at 3B which depending on how a team views him can bring his value down a lot especially if a team sees him as 1B or DH as that market is overly saturated with very similar players.

[brewcrewdue80]

What if the Brewers took Dylan Cease and the catcher Mccann from the White Sox?

 

This would be a bad trade but if it was really the case, I'd decline McCann and tell the White Sox to keep him. He's due likely about $6 million in arbitration next year, offsetting the Hader savings and then some...and he's not nearly as good of a hitter as his numbers were last year. That was a huge aberration.

 

Cease is former top25 prospect that had his first cup of tea of MLB experience. Good chance at being a ToR SP with 6yrs control and ready to go for 2020. McCann is just something better to add to the C situation. Maybe you'd ask for someone else added since youre not liking the idea? You're countering the McCann expense by inserting a SP making preArb. Vs paying some money for a FA out there. Rather than a huge contract to Wheeler, you have a Wheeler or better in the making at peanuts

[bill hAll Star]

What if the Brewers took Dylan Cease and the catcher Mccann from the White Sox?

 

This would be a bad trade but if it was really the case, I'd decline McCann and tell the White Sox to keep him. He's due likely about $6 million in arbitration next year, offsetting the Hader savings and then some...and he's not nearly as good of a hitter as his numbers were last year. That was a huge aberration.

 

Cease is former top25 prospect that had his first cup of tea of MLB experience. Good chance at being a ToR SP with 6yrs control and ready to go for 2020. McCann is just something better to add to the C situation. Maybe you'd ask for someone else added since youre not liking the idea? You're countering the McCann expense by inserting a SP making preArb. Vs paying some money for a FA out there. Rather than a huge contract to Wheeler, you have a Wheeler or better in the making at peanuts

 

Yes, I'm suggesting someone other than McCann. There's no reason for the Brewers to take on $6 million in cash this year to add essentially a backup catcher.

 

Cease could be good. I'd welcome him in any trade the Brewers make. But I would stop short of saying he will be as good as Wheeler has been. Cease could be another one of those pitchers that just never develops with the "stuff" and is a 5 ERA guy. He could basically flame out as Wily Peralta did.

[phnxcrew]

I still think the dodgers make an absolutely ridiculous offer for Hader. They have the young talent and the motivation. They are extremely hungry for a title and liable to do something really stupid here-take that offer and add on two lower-level guys!

[reillymcshane]

I'd pass on J.D. Davis - at least as a headliner for a guy like Hader.

 

Davis is a bad defensive player. Maybe he could be okay at 1B - but he's bad at 3B and LF.

 

The bat certainly plays, but the glove is worrisome.

[Brewersfanatic2882]

I could see the Dodgers getting desperate. How does an offer of Dustin May and Alex Verdugo sound? To much or to little? Dodgers have tons of of's and they get the best releiver in the game without lux. This leaves us with money to go out and sign Wheeler or sombody of that caliber. All of a sudden we have a rotation that consist of Woody, wheeler and may.

[mattyo]

I put this in the other Hader thread but I think the Yankees make the most sense here.

 

Andujar and Garcia would be a very tempting offer.

 

This isn't even in the stratosphere of what it would take to get Hader

[bill hAll Star]

I could see the Dodgers getting desperate. How does an offer of Dustin May and Alex Verdugo sound? To much or to little? Dodgers have tons of of's and they get the best releiver in the game without lux. This leaves us with money to go out and sign Wheeler or sombody of that caliber. All of a sudden we have a rotation that consist of Woody, wheeler and may.

 

Here's what the Dodgers can do instead:

 

Keep Verdugo and May

Sign Chapman, Betances, and any other best reliever on the market

 

Trade for a Daniel Hudson caliber reliever at the deadline for a nothing prospect.

 

Win the division by 10 games this year and the next 7 years. Eventually they'll win a World Series.

 

Trading for Josh Hader does not put magic potion on a playoff series. It sounds fun as a fan to say, "well they had bullpen problems and Josh Hader can fix that." That's incredibly fluky. Hader could get hurt, struggle for a game, or maybe they lose for completely different reasons. And they can bring in nearly as good of relievers just buy spending cash.

[KeithStone53151]

Here's what the Dodgers can do instead:

 

Keep Verdugo and May

Sign Chapman, Betances, and any other best reliever on the market

 

Trade for a Daniel Hudson caliber reliever at the deadline for a nothing prospect.

 

Win the division by 10 games this year and the next 7 years. Eventually they'll win a World Series.

 

Trading for Josh Hader does not put magic potion on a playoff series. It sounds fun as a fan to say, "well they had bullpen problems and Josh Hader can fix that." That's incredibly fluky. Hader could get hurt, struggle for a game, or maybe they lose for completely different reasons. And they can bring in nearly as good of relievers just buy spending cash.

 

I believe Chapman extended with the Yankees, so that's out. Betances is available and they have deep pockets, but plenty of other teams will be involved in the bidding AND he's a much bigger wildcard than Hader...and probably not as good, and not LH.

 

This isn't a situation where "the Dodgers bullpen sucked, therefore they'll pay triple the value of Hader to fix their problem". I'm sure they'll weigh out the asking price versus ability to add value elsewhere. It's an indisputable fact that the Dodgers and Brewers match up very well in a Hader deal...but also the Dodgers pretty much match up with everyone's needs because they basically have a surplus of elite everything except RP.

[bill hAll Star]

Here's what the Dodgers can do instead:

 

Keep Verdugo and May

Sign Chapman, Betances, and any other best reliever on the market

 

Trade for a Daniel Hudson caliber reliever at the deadline for a nothing prospect.

 

Win the division by 10 games this year and the next 7 years. Eventually they'll win a World Series.

 

Trading for Josh Hader does not put magic potion on a playoff series. It sounds fun as a fan to say, "well they had bullpen problems and Josh Hader can fix that." That's incredibly fluky. Hader could get hurt, struggle for a game, or maybe they lose for completely different reasons. And they can bring in nearly as good of relievers just buy spending cash.

 

I believe Chapman extended with the Yankees, so that's out. Betances is available and they have deep pockets, but plenty of other teams will be involved in the bidding AND he's not a much bigger wildcard than Hader...and probably not as good, and not LH.

 

This isn't a situation where "the Dodgers bullpen sucked, therefore they'll pay triple the value of Hader to fix their problem". I'm sure they'll weigh out the asking price versus ability to add value elsewhere. It's an indisputable fact that the Dodgers and Brewers match up very well in a Hader deal...but also the Dodgers pretty much match up with everyone's needs because they basically have a surplus of elite everything except RP.

 

Well I think this is exactly a situation of fans thinking one of the best front offices in baseball is absolutely going to say, "we had bullpen issues in one playoff series, we're going to pay triple the value of Hader to fix it."

 

That is where all of these trade proposals are coming from. The Dodgers can and should just continue their pipeline of cheap, excellent talent and supplementing positions of need with their mountains of cash. Just because some fluky stuff has happened to them in the playoffs does not mean they should deviate from that and do something silly.

 

The Dodgers may not need Lux this year, but Turner is getting old and his contract is done this year. So they can just shift Seager to 3B and have Lux play SS after that or some similar iteration of that plan.

 

The two trades they almost dealt Bellinger (reportedly) were for Darvish and Dozier...they held on tight and got a much better deal on Darvish. And it looks like that paid off. So they're not just going to throw away Lux or Verdugo. Those guys will also be really good players, probably more valuable than Hader, especially because they can pay those guys a small amount of $ and pay a Hader-caliber player at reliever or another position with the savings.

[KeithStone53151]

Well I think this is exactly a situation of fans thinking one of the best front offices in baseball is absolutely going to say, "we had bullpen issues in one playoff series, we're going to pay triple the value of Hader to fix it."

 

That is where all of these trade proposals are coming from. The Dodgers can and should just continue their pipeline of cheap, excellent talent and supplementing positions of need with their mountains of cash. Just because some fluky stuff has happened to them in the playoffs does not mean they should deviate from that and do something silly.

 

The Dodgers may not need Lux this year, but Turner is getting old and his contract is done this year. So they can just shift Seager to 3B and have Lux play SS after that or some similar iteration of that plan.

 

The two trades they almost dealt Bellinger (reportedly) were for Darvish and Dozier...they held on tight and got a much better deal on Darvish. And it looks like that paid off. So they're not just going to throw away Lux or Verdugo. Those guys will also be really good players, probably more valuable than Hader, especially because they can pay those guys a small amount of $ and pay a Hader-caliber player at reliever or another position with the savings.

 

I get that. And yes some of the proposals are slanted in the Brewers favor pretty significantly. There definitely is a pretty significant sweet spot where it makes sense to use some of their excess to win now, especially with how good they are at developing. Lux might be too good, but maybe one of those 2 catchers and May or another good pitcher would make sense. Also I generally feel like you are underestimating Hader's value a bit. The drop-off from Hader to Betances is huge...and the drop-off from Betances to everyone else is even bigger. Hader over the last 2 combined years is 2nd in WAR to Kirby Yates.

[brewcrewdue80]

Hey, one last caveat on Cease. He was trade by the Cubs in the deal for Jose Quintana. How about carving up the Cubs h2h with Cease.

Looking at his Fangraphs, Cease throws 4pitches. An upper 90s FB, A big time 12-6 Curve, slider and changeup. The writeup on him they did when he was called up was as a mid-rotation type with All Star years ahead of him. You'd have a Woodruff, Cease, Lauer beginning to your rotation for seasons to come.

[bill hAll Star]

Well I think this is exactly a situation of fans thinking one of the best front offices in baseball is absolutely going to say, "we had bullpen issues in one playoff series, we're going to pay triple the value of Hader to fix it."

 

That is where all of these trade proposals are coming from. The Dodgers can and should just continue their pipeline of cheap, excellent talent and supplementing positions of need with their mountains of cash. Just because some fluky stuff has happened to them in the playoffs does not mean they should deviate from that and do something silly.

 

The Dodgers may not need Lux this year, but Turner is getting old and his contract is done this year. So they can just shift Seager to 3B and have Lux play SS after that or some similar iteration of that plan.

 

The two trades they almost dealt Bellinger (reportedly) were for Darvish and Dozier...they held on tight and got a much better deal on Darvish. And it looks like that paid off. So they're not just going to throw away Lux or Verdugo. Those guys will also be really good players, probably more valuable than Hader, especially because they can pay those guys a small amount of $ and pay a Hader-caliber player at reliever or another position with the savings.

 

I get that. And yes some of the proposals are slanted in the Brewers favor pretty significantly. There definitely is a pretty significant sweet spot where it makes sense to use some of their excess to win now, especially with how good they are at developing. Lux might be too good, but maybe one of those 2 catchers and May or another good pitcher would make sense. Also I generally feel like you are underestimating Hader's value a bit. The drop-off from Hader to Betances is huge...and the drop-off from Betances to everyone else is even bigger. Hader over the last 2 combined years is 2nd in WAR to Kirby Yates.

 

But the issue here is that it essentially doesn't matter for "winning now." They're going to win now and be the #1 seed in all likelihood. Why remove your pieces to also win from 2021-2025 to win the division by 14 games instead of 11 games in 2020? It's an incredibly simple idea to think that Hader will be the reason you win in the playoffs. Maybe he helps but I personally don't really believe that will be the magic potion. I'd rather have 5-7 better chances in the future instead of a slightly improved 1 right now.

[KeithStone53151]

But the issue here is that it essentially doesn't matter for "winning now." They're going to win now and be the #1 seed in all likelihood. Why remove your pieces to also win from 2021-2025 to win the division by 14 games instead of 11 games in 2020? It's an incredibly simple idea to think that Hader will be the reason you win in the playoffs. Maybe he helps but I personally don't really believe that will be the magic potion. I'd rather have 5-7 better chances in the future instead of a slightly improved 1 right now.

 

You're over-simplifying. It's not 1 now, you have Hader for up to 4 years. And trading one or two players now doesn't necessarily hinder you that much right now. Especially if they consider being light years ahead of everyone else in developing talent. What does it matter if they trade Verdugo, if they have surplus OF now and they can develop 2 more equally productive OF over the next couple years? Again, not saying give guys away just to give them away. There's quite a bit of logic in trading for Hader pending the price. The Pirates price was clearly too high for Vazquez, maybe we can strike the right balance that works for both teams with Hader.

 

I'll over-simplify by saying Hader for Lux and Verdugo is way too high, but Hader for Ruiz is way too low. There's miles of space between those 2 values, maybe they can get it done and maybe not.

[mattyo]

But the issue here is that it essentially doesn't matter for "winning now." They're going to win now and be the #1 seed in all likelihood. Why remove your pieces to also win from 2021-2025 to win the division by 14 games instead of 11 games in 2020? It's an incredibly simple idea to think that Hader will be the reason you win in the playoffs. Maybe he helps but I personally don't really believe that will be the magic potion. I'd rather have 5-7 better chances in the future instead of a slightly improved 1 right now.

 

You're over-simplifying. It's not 1 now, you have Hader for up to 4 years. And trading one or two players now doesn't necessarily hinder you that much right now. Especially if they consider being light years ahead of everyone else in developing talent. What does it matter if they trade Verdugo, if they have surplus OF now and they can develop 2 more equally productive OF over the next couple years? Again, not saying give guys away just to give them away. There's quite a bit of logic in trading for Hader pending the price. The Pirates price was clearly too high for Vazquez, maybe we can strike the right balance that works for both teams with Hader.

 

I'll over-simplify by saying Hader for Lux and Verdugo is way too high, but Hader for Ruiz is way too low. There's miles of space between those 2 values, maybe they can get it done and maybe not.

 

For the record, I think Hader for Lux and Verdugo is WAY closer to reality than Andujar and Garcia, and I don't think its close.