Hader trade ideas

[bigred]

If Hader ends up getting traded, some fans will end up being FURIOUS about the return package, and some fans will be ECSTATIC about it. That's just reality. Although, if we truly think about it, they only person who needs to be happy with the return package, is Stearns himself. No matter what happens, life WILL STILL go on people.

[BrewForLife]

If Hader ends up getting traded, some fans will end up being FURIOUS about the return package, and some fans will be ECSTATIC about it. That's just reality. Although, if we truly think about it, they only person who needs to be happy with the return package, is Stearns himself.

 

AND the owner as Mark A pretty much looked at the Grienke return from LAA as a reason GM Melvin was brushed aside.

[brewerhuman]

Andujar. Had a good hitting rookie season. Suffered season ending torn labrum surgery back in May. At the time he had a -9runs offensively on top of the defensive issues. To take him in is expecting his rookie year not only wasn't a fluke(because it has that appearance) but also that this torn labrum surgery was a success and he's going to be just like he was in 2018. I call bull on that.

 

taken from an article on MLB

Andujar sustained the tear by diving back into third base in the Yankees' third game of the season. Though the Yankees initially believed that Andujar's injury would not affect his hitting, Andujar was 3-for-34 (.088) after being activated from the injured list on May 4.

 

Injured goods, with 0 proof that he won't remain injured goods. Already poor defensively, how does he return from surgery? It can't be better defensively, it can only be worse. Does his amazing 2018 out of practically nowhere reappear? This is what Yankees fan dream of in getting rid of him because he's likely toast and 2.2WAR season is the best he'll ever be. Not one trade idea involving Hader should include him in it. He'd only be a PTBNL worthy after he's spent 2months playing professional ball and showing if he's even a glimmer of his former self.

Mark Polishek can go take his opinion and shove it. Frazier is an OF, Florial is an OF. Garcia is the only one that makes sense, and even mentioning Frazier, is another Yankee rid away a trash/mistake and get elite in return. Frazier probably has 0 or 1 options remaining. None of that fits the current Brewers roster. Florial at 22 in A+ ball just completed a .237/.297 season. Has a 45 hit tool according to MLB. What does that do for Milw moving forward.

 

Edit add: Also Garcia has Red Flags. He's 5'9" and usually those stats are elevated when so short. Had 5.4ERA at AAA in 40IP. What does this remind you of? Tyler Thornburg, who just can't cut it due to the stature. Had a 4.5BB/9 basically at AA and AAA. Sure he's only 20 but look at Freddy Peralta, dinged due to being 5'11" and maybe that can explain is struggles at times. You want 6'1" or taller ideally up to 6'6" Garcia is battling uphill in a downhill battle.

 

to point: MLB says this on #5 ranked 6'1" Clark Schmidt(who sound more promising that Garcia or Gil)

 

His 6-foot-1 frame doesn't create a lot of downhill plane on his pitches, and his size and less-than-smooth delivery created concerns about his durability even before he blew out his elbow. He has the best four-pitch mix among Yankees pitching prospects, so they will continue to develop him as a starter.

 

but how do you really feel?

[bigred]

If Hader ends up getting traded, some fans will end up being FURIOUS about the return package, and some fans will be ECSTATIC about it. That's just reality. Although, if we truly think about it, they only person who needs to be happy with the return package, is Stearns himself.

 

AND the owner as Mark A pretty much looked at the Grienke return from LAA as a reason GM Melvin was brushed aside.

 

 

Yes, of course, Mark A would need to be happy too. . Before a potential trade was finalized though, it's obvious that Stearns would already have Mark's blessing. Lol

[wallus]

The Hader valuations are so over the board that there is no way to have a rational discussion with many people.

[Brewcrewin07]

I guess I'm curious because I see this in a lot of threads here, but for some of you, can Stearns do no wrong?? No matter what he does, you will trust him and think he "hit it out of the park" whether it's a trade, FA signing etc?? Sure, he knows more then we do, but let's keep in mind, he hasn't been perfect(see, going with three young arms to start last year). he has done a lot of good things, they don't need to be rehashed we all know what they are, but again, he hasn't been perfect.

[82brewcrew82]

I guess I'm curious because I see this in a lot of threads here, but for some of you, can Stearns do no wrong?? No matter what he does, you will trust him and think he "hit it out of the park" whether it's a trade, FA signing etc?? Sure, he knows more then we do, but let's keep in mind, he hasn't been perfect(see, going with three young arms to start last year). he has done a lot of good things, they don't need to be rehashed we all know what they are, but again, he hasn't been perfect.

Strawman, not one person has made the claim that DS is perfect.

[Bulldogboy]

At the end of the day I prefer to deal Hader to the Dodgers. I say use them and the Yankees against each other to drive up the price but Dodgers have better pieces in my opinion.

[Brewcrewin07]

The Hader valuations are so over the board that there is no way to have a rational discussion with many people.

 

I mean, just reading people's comments, it sure seems like the group that thinks his value isn't what some of us insist it is. Speak in absolutes like they are 100% right, and those of us that want more are "dreaming" and there is NO way he is worth that much, or that they would ever get that much. Why?? Because you say so?? Some people think he's worth a few questionable Yankees prospects(like Andujar etc), others think he's worth way more than that. Who knows who is right and who isn't?? Just because you may not think he's worth as much as some think he is, doesn't make it true, and just because some of us think he's worth a lot, doesn't make that true either.

 

And IF Stearns does trade him, and whatever package he gets, I hope people don't think just because that's what he acquired, means, that must have been all he was worth. That's not necessarily true. DS isn't perfect people, he makes mistakes. He SHOULD be smart enough to know that whoever he trades him to, he should be absolutely fleecing that team, because quite simply, he doesn't HAVE to trade him.

 

I mean when we need to take out a loan for something, we have to pay interest right?? So obviously, that $10,000 is worth more than just $10,000 right?? The bank has something we want/need, and if we need/want it badly enough, we pay what they are asking for. Yes, we can always shop around and get the best deal, but no matter what, that $10,000 loan is still going to cost us more than $10,000 even if we don't think it should be.

[Brewcrewin07]

I guess I'm curious because I see this in a lot of threads here, but for some of you, can Stearns do no wrong?? No matter what he does, you will trust him and think he "hit it out of the park" whether it's a trade, FA signing etc?? Sure, he knows more then we do, but let's keep in mind, he hasn't been perfect(see, going with three young arms to start last year). he has done a lot of good things, they don't need to be rehashed we all know what they are, but again, he hasn't been perfect.

Strawman, not one person has made the claim that DS is perfect.

 

 

Pretty close, they seem to LOVE every move he makes, or if they don't love it, they don't criticize it much either. All I'm saying is, it is entirely possible he totally bungles a Hader trade. It's also entirely possible he kills it. It's just that some people, no matter what he may get or any move he makes, will think it's great, even if it's really not.

[Brewcrewin07]

At the end of the day I prefer to deal Hader to the Dodgers. I say use them and the Yankees against each other to drive up the price but Dodgers have better pieces in my opinion.

 

+1000, they have much better pieces and it's not even close in my opinion.

[reillymcshane]

I guess I'm curious because I see this in a lot of threads here, but for some of you, can Stearns do no wrong?? No matter what he does, you will trust him and think he "hit it out of the park" whether it's a trade, FA signing etc?? Sure, he knows more then we do, but let's keep in mind, he hasn't been perfect(see, going with three young arms to start last year). he has done a lot of good things, they don't need to be rehashed we all know what they are, but again, he hasn't been perfect.

Strawman, not one person has made the claim that DS is perfect.

 

 

Pretty close, they seem to LOVE every move he makes, or if they don't love it, they don't criticize it much either. All I'm saying is, it is entirely possible he totally bungles a Hader trade. It's also entirely possible he kills it. It's just that some people, no matter what he may get or any move he makes, will think it's great, even if it's really not.

This is ridiculous. Your comments have nothing to do with Hader and are all about arguing about Stearns. If you want to make the 'I hate Stearns' thread or a 'I hate people who don't hate enough on Stearns' thread, go for it. But stop this attacking others crap. You are arguing about stuff simply to argue about stuff.

[82brewcrew82]

I mean, just reading people's comments, it sure seems like the group that thinks his value isn't what some of us insist it is. Speak in absolutes like they are 100% right, and those of us that want more are "dreaming" and there is NO way he is worth that much, or that they would ever get that much. Why?? Because you say so?? Some people think he's worth a few questionable Yankees prospects(like Andujar etc), others think he's worth way more than that. Who knows who is right and who isn't?? Just because you may not think he's worth as much as some think he is, doesn't make it true, and just because some of us think he's worth a lot, doesn't make that true either.

I don't think I'm 100% correct but I'd be shocked if some of the returns I'm seeing proposed actually end up happening, and yes, I'm fairly confident in that statement. It's not like your comments haven't been equally assumptive and absolute. I don't think Hader returns a Torres (or a Judge, or a Severino or anything equal to that from any other team) or a combination of Lux and May and I'd be willing to bet a fair amount on that.

 

And IF Stearns does trade him, and whatever package he gets, I hope people don't think just because that's what he acquired, means, that must have been all he was worth. That's not necessarily true. DS isn't perfect people, he makes mistakes. He SHOULD be smart enough to know that whoever he trades him to, he should be absolutely fleecing that team, because quite simply, he doesn't HAVE to trade him.

Again, not one single person on this board is not going to take the time to consider the components of any trade and draw their own conclusion. You keep making these strawman arguments as though people are actually saying things they aren't saying. DS has done a pretty good job of acquiring talent in whatever deals he has made. Do you honestly believe he is going to trade Hader just to trade Hader? Hader isn't getting dealt unless DS thinks he is getting a favorable deal. The guy isn't perfect but he isn't an idiot either.

 

I mean when we need to take out a loan for something, we have to pay interest right?? So obviously, that $10,000 is worth more than just $10,000 right?? The bank has something we want/need, and if we need/want it badly enough, we pay what they are asking for. Yes, we can always shop around and get the best deal, but no matter what, that $10,000 loan is still going to cost us more than $10,000 even if we don't think it should be.

I'm not sure what analogy your trying to make here. If I get a loan for my house it really doesn't matter whether my house is worth $200,000 or $250,000, the interest rate for buying that home is going to generally be the same. The value of the asset doesn't affect the interest rate. In any case this is a trade, not a purchase. Hader is worth whatever a partner team is willing to pay for him, nothing more. You don't have to like it, and you can certainly keep him rather than trade him, but that doesn't materially change his value. The fact that we CAN keep him really doesn't change that and it certainly doesn't create the leverage some folks think it should. The Yankees, for instance, have the resources to go out and acquire another asset that may be nearly as good as Hader (or at least close enough to satisfy themselves).

[MilwaukeeBeers]

I’m 100% positive these yankee centric twitter rumors are bunk.

[adambr2]

I guess I'm curious because I see this in a lot of threads here, but for some of you, can Stearns do no wrong?? No matter what he does, you will trust him and think he "hit it out of the park" whether it's a trade, FA signing etc?? Sure, he knows more then we do, but let's keep in mind, he hasn't been perfect(see, going with three young arms to start last year). he has done a lot of good things, they don't need to be rehashed we all know what they are, but again, he hasn't been perfect.

Strawman, not one person has made the claim that DS is perfect.

 

 

Pretty close, they seem to LOVE every move he makes, or if they don't love it, they don't criticize it much either. All I'm saying is, it is entirely possible he totally bungles a Hader trade. It's also entirely possible he kills it. It's just that some people, no matter what he may get or any move he makes, will think it's great, even if it's really not.

 

I've got to hand it to you, after a week suspension, some posters would have just either bailed or done some self-reflection on their posting habits, but you got right back up on that horse.

 

Anyway, it's not yet possible to look at Stearns' moves this offseason from a position of hindsight. We don't know yet how they will turn out. What we can look at from a position of hindsight is the fact that under Stearns, the Brewers have averaged 90.3 wins per season the last 3 years. Most often, even under scrutiny, his moves have panned out well and this is reflected in his record. Not every time, but much of the time, and this is why he is generally given the benefit of the doubt on the positive side. And rightfully so. He's earned it.

[RollieTime]

If Hader is moved, I hope it’s with the Dodgers as I feel like they have much better pieces to acquire than what the Yankees have to offer unless they are offering significant contributors off of their roster.

 

The one thing that I would hate to see is Hader get traded to the Yankees for a package of Garcia, Andujar, and Florial, and then when he only has a year and a half left of control, they turn around and trade him and get 2 top 50 prospects with a couple additional high upside fliers when that’s something people are dismissing right now with 4 full years of control.

 

Andrew Miller is another example of an elite reliever being moved and he brought back the 21st and 69th best prospects as well as 2 fliers. That was for only one and a half years of control.

 

Edwin Diaz was moved with 4 years of control left for the 62nd and 89th best prospects in baseball, a third promising looking prospect, while also ridding themselves of an absolute albatross of a contract in Cano by taking on a couple smaller poor contracts. The two main pieces they received were definitely on the upswing and moving a contract as terrible as Cano’s would greatly eat into the return package.

 

I would say that if Hader is moved, it is very realistic to expect a top 20 prospect as well as another in the 50-60 range or so at the very least. With at least 2 other high upside guys coming back in the deal. If a deal doesn’t present itself, hold off on moving Hader until the deadline or next offseason.

 

Obviously if Hader struggles, his value will tank. But if he dominates in the first half, waiting until the deadline might be a wise idea. Getting a couple surprise smaller market teams in the playoff hunt could see them make a strong push for relief help at the deadline and make a true bidding war while fighting the trade deadline clock.

 

Even just waiting until he only has 2 years left and then still moving him for a similar package as to what we could get now would make sense. Teams need to step up and offer a haul or continue to overspend on lesser talents in free agency.

 

It’s just a terrible thought to trade with the Yankees now and then see them move Hader with a year and a half left and they somehow get a better haul than what we did while they had him for 2+ seasons. Seems like the Yankees somehow can move relievers and get hauls for them, but others are just supposed to cave in and move Hader for a pretty average package.

 

I would say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to just hold off and move Hader near the trade deadline when teams are desperate for help and more willing to make a rash decision to make a playoff push. Even if we are in a playoff spot at the time, Hader can be moved. If Knebel comes back healthy and a couple guys like Devin Williams or Peralta can take a step forward, or maybe even a guy like Rasmussen can come up and be a solid late game option for us, it would make a trade of Hader much easier. Plus, Stearns will go out and get a little bullpen help at the deadline as well to help shore up the bullpen.

[82brewcrew82]

The one thing that I would hate to see is Hader get traded to the Yankees for a package of Garcia, Andujar, and Florial, and then when he only has a year and a half left of control, they turn around and trade him and get 2 top 50 prospects with a couple additional high upside fliers when that’s something people are dismissing right now with 4 full years of control.

Why would DS get fleeced and Cashman make out like a bandit two years later? This just seems irrational to me (I know you are not irrational). Further, why are we basing the value of the return on arbitrary prospect rankings? How did those prospects work out? Were they really the 21st and 69th best prospects? What if DS values say, Garcia, as a top 20 prospect (not that a GM would think in terms of rankings)? Honestly, do we not trust DS over a bunch of under-informed message board junkies (myself included)?

[82brewcrew82]

I would say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to just hold off and move Hader near the trade deadline when teams are desperate for help and more willing to make a rash decision to make a playoff push. Even if we are in a playoff spot at the time, Hader can be moved. If Knebel comes back healthy and a couple guys like Devin Williams or Peralta can take a step forward, or maybe even a guy like Rasmussen can come up and be a solid late game option for us, it would make a trade of Hader much easier. Plus, Stearns will go out and get a little bullpen help at the deadline as well to help shore up the bullpen.

I think this is a viable option as well. My issue is that with the way he throws and the workload he has put in, I think his arm is a ticking time bomb. I don't think he makes it another four years and I'm not sure he makes it another two years. Maybe that is my personal irrational fear but it seems just as likely we get nothing for him if we wait too long. Folks talk like it's a guarantee we can move him at any time, it isn't. If DS gets the value he wants now, deal him now.

[Eye Black]

Why would DS get fleeced and Cashman make out like a bandit two years later?

There were significant extenuating circumstances that impacted both trades made in this specific case (so definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison), but there is one example of the Yankees getting back significantly more than they paid for a high-end reliever...

 

December 28, 2015: Aroldis Chapman traded by the Cincinnati Reds to the New York Yankees for Eric Jagielo, Caleb Cotham, Rookie Davis and Tony Renda.

 

July 25, 2016: Aroldis Chapman traded by the New York Yankees to the Chicago Cubs for Rashad Crawford, Billy McKinney, Gleyber Torres and Adam Warren.

 

 

Still, worrying about what might happen down the road is the last thing that should be on the minds of the Brewers’ front office. They will focus on their own evaluation of the players/prospects being offered right now and balance that with their long term projections for Josh Hader. If they get a deal where they feel confident the long-term impact greatly outweighs the projected value of Hader over the next few seasons than they will likely pull the trigger.

 

As much as the passionate fan in me wants the Brewers to go “all-in” during the Yelich window, it also makes me a bit of a hypocrite since I was an antagonist of Doug Melvin’s “window theory”. The discipline the current front office has shown is actually pretty incredible even if it can be frustrating at times. I have a feeling David Stearns is telling the truth when he references building a perennial winner versus attempting to swing for the fences within a specific cycle of time. That may mean the Brewers won’t always have flashy off-seasons and in some cases they may take a significant asset and try to multiply the projected value into the future via trade, but it also means the Brewers won’t likely ever be in a position where they can’t make moves because of an overwhelming amount of dead money on the books, or refuse to make moves just because they overvalue the present.

[3and2Fastball]

My issue is that with the way he throws and the workload he has put in, I think his arm is a ticking time bomb. I don't think he makes it another four years and I'm not sure he makes it another two years. Maybe that is my personal irrational fear....

 

Anecdotal Evidence in regards to the history of MLB relief pitchers is plenty reason enough to have that fear. Very very few relief pitchers are elite year in and year out over the course of 5-6 seasons, let alone 15+ like Rivera & Hoffman.

 

The issue with “perceived value” is that every MLB GM is painfully aware of that reality, as well. So it is a real roll of the dice trading for relief pitching. At the same time, big market teams by their very nature have resources in place to take those risks.

 

In an ideal situation, there is a bidding war going on right now between the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros etc in attempting to deal for Hader...

[Soupbone]

In reference to 82brewcrew's thought. For Andrew Miller the Yankees got Clint Frazier who was the No. 21 prospect. He has played in the big leagues but has not been a regular. Justus Sheffield was the No. 69 prospect and he has been traded to Seattle. He has been in the big leagues a bit with poor results. J.P. Freyereisen is now with the Brewers. Ben Heller is a 28 year old who has 25 big league innings. So the "big" haul the Yankees got for Miller has not turned out very well.

[JosephC]

What I think would be realistic returns would be if a deal were to be made. Note that I have amended the Mets trade since it sounds like McNeil was unavailable in another trade.

 

Yankees get - Josh Hader

Brewers get - 3B-Miguel Andujar, RHP-Tommy Kahnle, RHP-Clarke Schmidt, another fringe prospect

 

Dodgers get - Josh Hader

Brewers get - C-Keibert Ruiz, RHP-Tony Gonsolin, 1B-Edwin Rios, another fringe prospect

 

Mets get - Josh Hader

Brewers get - RHP-Edwin Diaz, LHP-Justin Wilson, 3B-Brett Bady, C-Francisco Alvarez, OF-Adrian Hernandez

 

Phillies get - Josh Hader

Brewers get - LHP-Ranger Suarez, RHP-Spencer Howard, SS-Bryson Stott

 

Diamondbacks get - Josh Hader

Brewers get - LHP-Robbie Ray, LHP-Andrew Chaflin, OF-Kristian Robinson

[wibadgers23]

None of those trade proposals excite me too much except for maybe the Dodgers one. If those are really what we can expect from a Hader trade then I’d rather take my chances and keep him and hope he doesn’t regress or throw his arm out.

[Soupbone]

The Dodger proposal is by far the best. Fits needs the Brewers have with top prospects.

[3and2Fastball]

I like the idea of the Astros getting in on this deal... that WS loss stings I’m sure, and their bullpen was not a strength last year...