Looking in the mirror

[HarveysWBs]

So, I’m obviously on this board because I’m a Brewers fan and Packers fan. Thusly, I’m a member in good standing of the Fraternal Order of Cardinal Haters. My father hates the Cardinals, as did his father before him, and so on and so forth. The Cardinals embody all that is soulless and wrong in an otherwise glorious sport, as they ceaselessly posture and preen about the right way to play, obnoxiously trumpet their past champions and accomplished players ad nauseam, and have a preternatural ability to squeeze every ounce of baseball ability out of an endless supply of minor league fodder so average in appearance that the incongruity can only be explained by some sort of Faustian bargain (leaving me to wonder when—for the love of all that is good in this world!—will that debt come due). Of course, I need not elaborate any further for you here.

 

But, you see, in my 30+ years of conscious football fandom, I’ve never had to have a hate as strong as the one I hold for the St. Louis Baseball Cardinals. Sure, as a kid growing up in Bear country, I had my fair share of twerp friends and classmates who tried tweaking me about the Packers, but rare is the year when Favre or Rodgers did not absolutely beclown the Bears in at least one, if not two games, and the last laugh would be mine.

 

So my distaste has instead ranged to various other organizations in a fleeting way, going from the Cowboys to the Niners to the Seahawks until I came to the conclusion that, of course, the Patriots are much akin to the Cardinals. Obnoxious coach and fans, media obsession, repeated success with an apparently lackluster roster of players, and so on. It fits my archetype for an object of hatred so easily that I rested on these assumptions for a long time without much thought—until now.

 

The problem is, to put it plainly, the Patriots have entered a realm that now defies comparison. They are monolithic. As an organization, they are not so much king of the jungle as the meteor that wipes out the 31 dinosaurs of the NFL. This all makes them even easier to hate, of course. You root against them like one roots against the Yankees—but on steroids. They’re Thanos and the Evil Empire and John Calipari all mixed into one. But if they’ve graduated beyond the Cardinals comparison then that means the closest thing the NFL has to the Cardinals is...the Packers.

 

They’re a Midwest team, occupying that small market/“flyover” territory, with a storied past, loads of championships; the team prides itself on its distinctively intelligent and passionate fan base with a supposed principled and virtuous way to build an organization and play the game the right way—or even “the Packer way.” They’re universally reviled by every other midwestern team, the fan bases of which insist that arrogance, luck, and cheating/bias of the officials pervade the whole edifice of the Packers. World championships: 13 (Cardinals: 11). Division championships since 1996: 11 (Cardinals: 11). And even when I consider how they win, just this past weekend, the Packers triumphed with precisely one superstar on the field and a bunch of virtual unknowns outside of committed fantasy players—quite a Cardinal-esque way to win.

 

It pains me deeply to say this, but if I were a Vikings fan, or a Bears fan, or a Lions fan, I’d feel the same way about the Packers that any good Brewer fan feels about the Cardinals. And I don’t see any other way to reason myself out of this conclusion.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I highly doubt that anyone in the Cardinal fanbase wakes up in the morning, looks in the mirror, and bemoans the fact that they cheer for a pretentious organization that everyone else hates. I don't think anyone who cheers for the Packers should do that, either.

[homer]

If a Cardinals fan looks in the mirror it cracks.

[yourout]

If a Cardinals fan looks in the mirror it cracks.

 

If a Cardinals fan looks in the mirror it sees no reflection.

[LouisEly]

Eh, I don't know about that. You don't see anyone in the Packers organization chastising players or coaches on other teams for their conduct or, in their opinion, not doing things "the Packer Way". The Lambeau Leap can be a little obnoxious, but it's all in good fun and you know it's coming (unlike a Molina bat flip).

 

The Cardinals always figure out a way to pull a Clydesdale's horseshoe out of their butt. The Packers (Fail Mary, 4th and 27, Jerry Rice's fumble, etc.) seem to do the exact opposite.

[long ball]

Yes. Packers fans are the NFL version of Cardinals fans.

 

I wouldn't sweat it too much though.

[HiAndTight]

So, I’m obviously on this board because I’m a Brewers fan and Packers fan. Thusly, I’m a member in good standing of the Fraternal Order of Cardinal Haters. My father hates the Cardinals, as did his father before him, and so on and so forth. The Cardinals embody all that is soulless and wrong in an otherwise glorious sport, as they ceaselessly posture and preen about the right way to play, obnoxiously trumpet their past champions and accomplished players ad nauseam, and have a preternatural ability to squeeze every ounce of baseball ability out of an endless supply of minor league fodder so average in appearance that the incongruity can only be explained by some sort of Faustian bargain (leaving me to wonder when—for the love of all that is good in this world!—will that debt come due). Of course, I need not elaborate any further for you here.

 

But, you see, in my 30+ years of conscious football fandom, I’ve never had to have a hate as strong as the one I hold for the St. Louis Baseball Cardinals. Sure, as a kid growing up in Bear country, I had my fair share of twerp friends and classmates who tried tweaking me about the Packers, but rare is the year when Favre or Rodgers did not absolutely beclown the Bears in at least one, if not two games, and the last laugh would be mine.

 

So my distaste has instead ranged to various other organizations in a fleeting way, going from the Cowboys to the Niners to the Seahawks until I came to the conclusion that, of course, the Patriots are much akin to the Cardinals. Obnoxious coach and fans, media obsession, repeated success with an apparently lackluster roster of players, and so on. It fits my archetype for an object of hatred so easily that I rested on these assumptions for a long time without much thought—until now.

 

The problem is, to put it plainly, the Patriots have entered a realm that now defies comparison. They are monolithic. As an organization, they are not so much king of the jungle as the meteor that wipes out the 31 dinosaurs of the NFL. This all makes them even easier to hate, of course. You root against them like one roots against the Yankees—but on steroids. They’re Thanos and the Evil Empire and John Calipari all mixed into one. But if they’ve graduated beyond the Cardinals comparison then that means the closest thing the NFL has to the Cardinals is...the Packers.

 

They’re a Midwest team, occupying that small market/“flyover” territory, with a storied past, loads of championships; the team prides itself on its distinctively intelligent and passionate fan base with a supposed principled and virtuous way to build an organization and play the game the right way—or even “the Packer way.” They’re universally reviled by every other midwestern team, the fan bases of which insist that arrogance, luck, and cheating/bias of the officials pervade the whole edifice of the Packers. World championships: 13 (Cardinals: 11). Division championships since 1996: 11 (Cardinals: 11). And even when I consider how they win, just this past weekend, the Packers triumphed with precisely one superstar on the field and a bunch of virtual unknowns outside of committed fantasy players—quite a Cardinal-esque way to win.

 

It pains me deeply to say this, but if I were a Vikings fan, or a Bears fan, or a Lions fan, I’d feel the same way about the Packers that any good Brewer fan feels about the Cardinals. And I don’t see any other way to reason myself out of this conclusion.

 

 

 

First of all....I got every reference but Thanos. I'm assuming he's some God of...War or something in Greek Mythology.

The Patriots really are just on another level. I do think the idea that they can just throw anyone out there is a little overblown. One of the most underrated things about Belichick is his ability to identify the right guy to fit what he wants in a football player and then go out and get him. He'll do it with under the radar type guys in Welker and Edelmen, and he'll do it with marquee signings like Gilmore. How in the hell he can let Nate Solder and Trent Brown go in back to back years is beyond me, but that's what makes him great. Despite Isaiah Wynn missing all year, he knew he could step in and start at LT. That's just as important as his schematic advantages and his regimen.

 

And I said this in another thread, but he exploits the market. When EVERY TEAM is going one way, he goes the other. He signs LeGarrette Blount for 2 million dollars, watches him pound the ball in for 18 TD's then moves on from him and just loads up on basically several really poor man Christian McCaffery's. What Badger fan thought that James White would amount to anything? Yet he's been a huge part of their success.

 

Anyway, I'd say you're right in that the Packers most closely resemble the Cardinals EXCEPT that Baseball is a very different sport than Football. The Packers don't take themselves too seriously. They don't have their own standard that they play by and a different one that everyone else is supposed to play with. They are jubilant and celebrate and consistently good. That would be the biggest difference I would see.

 

But if I was a Bears or Vikings fan, I'd probably have that same disdain. Especially a Bears fan as the Vikings have had their own success actually going through the Packers whereas the Bears have not.

 

I think you're about 75 pct on to something here. There are a lot of similarities. The fan bases of both can be a little pretentious. They both ACT like they have this standard that players have to live up to when in reality, they just try not to pick guys who are going to act like clowns. They don't take many big risks, though they do occasionally sign a Colt Lyrela. The fanbases tout that high "character," that their players have....regardless if it's true or not and they're both older fan bases...though the Cards aren't nearly as old as the average fan at Lambeau.

 

 

 

So...yeah, that was a random post and I have some words for you that wouldn't make it past the filter for making me come to the conclusion that the Packers and the Cardinals share SOME similarities.

[HiAndTight]

Eh, I don't know about that. You don't see anyone in the Packers organization chastising players or coaches on other teams for their conduct or, in their opinion, not doing things "the Packer Way". The Lambeau Leap can be a little obnoxious, but it's all in good fun and you know it's coming (unlike a Molina bat flip).

 

The Cardinals always figure out a way to pull a Clydesdale's horseshoe out of their butt. The Packers (Fail Mary, 4th and 27, Jerry Rice's fumble, etc.) seem to do the exact opposite.

 

 

This is the glaring exception. I do think though that the Packers liked to talk up their organization and the "Packer way," a bit too much around that 2010 SB win. But that doesn't even approach the Carpenter and his "what will I tell my kids," crap and then screaming and cussing players out while he's on the mound in the World Series.

 

 

As for the Packers poor luck, they've also had some pretty incredible wins. That win to get over the hump vs the 49'ers in the 90's, the way for years they would win 5 out of 6 to make the playoffs and you just felt even if they were 2 back with 6 to go they were fine, the Seattle game when they were own 14 in the first couple minutes after two Ryan Grant fumbles and then ran them out. The Cowboys games where Dez was robbed of what was clearly a catch(though I'm 100 pct confident Rodgers woulda have taken the Packers back down to at least get in FG position) and then when Crosby hit a 56 and a 51 yard FG in the final 2:30 along with a historic play by Rodgers to get them there.

 

The Hail Marry's vs Detroit and the two vs the Cardinals of Arizona.

 

And the MLB Cards have had some clunkers. Matt Holliday anyone?

[Samurai Bucky]

First of all....I got every reference but Thanos. I'm assuming he's some God of...War or something in Greek Mythology.

There could be some good-natured ribbing following this...

 

For reference, he was the main bad guy in the recent Avengers movies.

 

Carry on...

[jerichoholicninja]

Speaking as someone that doesn't have a cheering interest for any particular NFL team and growing up in Wisconsin around Packers fans, I would agree that they are the Cardinals fans of the NFL. Not anywhere near as annoying or hypocritical, but a lot of similarities.

[owbc]

A couple thoughts...

 

People will rationalize just about anything in exchange for wins. That is a universal trait of sports fandom.

 

All Midwestern states are kind of similar but the one thing Wisconsin has on its neighbors is a greater superiority complex. And everything about the Packers fits perfectly into that narrative.

 

As for the Cardinals, their marketing department has added fuel to the fire, but I suspect things will change when Molina retires. The fans will mostly go along with it, the same way they do everywhere else.

 

All things considered, it's more fun to be on the winning side. And when the winning stops the fans quickly lose patience for antics that are deemed completely acceptable during the good times.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

The Packers have engaged in the same type of moral high horse stuff in the past. They publicly released that Packer People manifesto some years ago. The JS started blasting them for the Jolly thing and the public predictably took the team's side for the most part. They've pretty much cooled it since then.

 

I don't lose any sleep over any of it, but yes, the fan base in general, and it is worse around the stadium on gameday, can be quite douchey. For the most part outwardly friendly to visitors, but superiority complex is the perfect way to put it. That is kind of funny to me, because they have two championships in 50 years. Probably one of the top 8 or so run franchises in the span, but by no means the best or even close.

[HiAndTight]

The Packers have engaged in the same type of moral high horse stuff in the past. They publicly released that Packer People manifesto some years ago. The JS started blasting them for the Jolly thing and the public predictably took the team's side for the most part. They've pretty much cooled it since then.

 

I don't lose any sleep over any of it, but yes, the fan base in general, and it is worse around the stadium on gameday, can be quite douchey. For the most part outwardly friendly to visitors, but superiority complex is the perfect way to put it. That is kind of funny to me, because they have two championships in 50 years. Probably one of the top 8 or so run franchises in the span, but by no means the best or even close.

 

 

I always hated that "Packer people," nonsense. You're playing football, not running a car pool. I guess I do seem to remember fans being pretty critical of other players and getting on the Vikings for the boat thing years ago.

 

Still...it doesn't seem as blatantly hypocritical as the Cards but I suppose if I were a Cards fan I probably wouldn't recognize that as well as others did.

[HiAndTight]

A couple thoughts...

 

People will rationalize just about anything in exchange for wins. That is a universal trait of sports fandom.

 

All Midwestern states are kind of similar but the one thing Wisconsin has on its neighbors is a greater superiority complex. And everything about the Packers fits perfectly into that narrative.

 

As for the Cardinals, their marketing department has added fuel to the fire, but I suspect things will change when Molina retires. The fans will mostly go along with it, the same way they do everywhere else.

 

All things considered, it's more fun to be on the winning side. And when the winning stops the fans quickly lose patience for antics that are deemed completely acceptable during the good times.

 

 

I think the Packers are going to have a lot of empty seats at Lambeau if they happen to go through a prolonged drought after Rodgers retires. It's not easy to sell tickets to a lot of games now and they've got one of the greatest QB's to play.

 

After a ~30 year run of HOF play at the QB position, if the Packers are picking in the top 10 in multiple years...things are gonna get ugly. I certainly wouldn't buy a Dog if I was LaFleur. But hopefully that's a long way off.

[LouisEly]

All things considered, it's more fun to be on the winning side. And when the winning stops the fans quickly lose patience for antics that are deemed completely acceptable during the good times.

I think that's more of a function of ticket prices/cost of going to a game than anything. Prices now are at the tipping point where you must put a good product on the field, or it isn't worth going.

 

While Packers fans can be a little annoying, the fact that Green Bay still has a team - and a flourishing one - is a testament to the fans, and they deserve a little bit of a superiority complex for that. While the economics of the NFL and being community-owned help a lot, in how many other communities that size would a team be able to survive? How many other communities would have taken $100M in the late 80s from some prospective owner to buy that franchise and move it? How many other communities that size would invest in the stadium and stadium area like they have?

 

60 years ago, Saint Louis was one of the 10 largest and most flourishing cities in America. It was the first non-European city to host the Olympics. IMO, you can't compare Saint Louis to Green Bay in any way other than that both are about the same distance from the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans respectively.

[OldHeidelberg]

It's those stupid cheese hats, if it wasn't for them our fan base wouldn't really stand out at all. I get what you are saying, the Packers org has really promoted that stuff since the 90's with the stock sales, marketing Lambeau as a Wrigley/Fenway type historic venue, etc. In the end though it's just the success and having 2 huge stars for the last 20 years that makes our rivals hate us. I mean I really hate the Vikings but if it was the Bears or Lions who competed with us for the division most of the last couple of decades it would probably be them I root against most passionately. The Viking fans are the most vocal complaining about Packer fans too, the ref bias and all that.

[PinaMadness]

Good. That means they're doing something right.

[nodakfan17]

I have little sympathy for teams who can’t get stadiums built. Green Bay figured out how to raise $295 million for the Lambeau Field renovation. That’d be over $400 million in today’s dollars. Now does that happen without the 90s renaissance? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

* Brown County did it alone without any help from the state (looking at you, Milwaukee Bucks).

[OldHeidelberg]

I have little sympathy for teams who can’t get stadiums built. Green Bay figured out how to raise $295 million for the Lambeau Field renovation. That’d be over $400 million in today’s dollars. Now does that happen without the 90s renaissance? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

* Brown County did it alone without any help from the state (looking at you, Milwaukee Bucks).

 

Maybe a little off topic but they should have torn it down and built a new stadium, they could have built it big enough to keep their season ticket base. It would still be Lambeau Field, clinging to that structure wasn't a good idea as it is not a great stadium. But like I said earlier they have marketed it well so from a revenue standpoint I guess it has been a solid decision so far, not so great for the fans though.

[Samurai Bucky]

I have little sympathy for teams who can’t get stadiums built. Green Bay figured out how to raise $295 million for the Lambeau Field renovation. That’d be over $400 million in today’s dollars. Now does that happen without the 90s renaissance? Maybe. Maybe not.

 

* Brown County did it alone without any help from the state (looking at you, Milwaukee Bucks).

 

Maybe a little off topic but they should have torn it down and built a new stadium, they could have built it big enough to keep their season ticket base. It would still be Lambeau Field, clinging to that structure wasn't a good idea as it is not a great stadium. But like I said earlier they have marketed it well so from a revenue standpoint I guess it has been a solid decision so far, not so great for the fans though.

This begs the question: what makes something a good... or great stadium? There must be something that is glaring that is an issue.

 

We get two different sides of the story whenever a stadium is built: let's get something brand new, shiny, is more functional, and has more luxury box seats vs. OMG! Tax payer money is being spent to build a new stadium.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I'm not a huge fan of Lambeau Field. I feel like much of it has been stripped of its character but whatever, people love it, and that's fine. I also am getting too old and lame for sitting out in the cold.

 

I was talking about this recently with a Vikings fan who said he loved it and hates US Bank. His words were that Lambeau Field "bring the rube out of you," and you feel like you're some place special when you're there. He said US Bank feels like a corporate creation designed to separate you from your money. When the game ends, you go home. You also don't show up 4 hours early. By any measure, US Bank is better, but in practice, every part of it is worse. His words, not mine.

 

I sort of feel like that's how Lambeau has gone with all the development and Disney esque feel outside the stadium, but you can't blame them for modernizing the place and doing what they need to do.

 

I enjoy Miller Park because it is wonderfully comfortable inside and that matters a lot in Milwaukee. But on a nice day, it is a pretty soul-less place to see a game. When it's 80 degrees I really miss County Stadium. But it had to be practical and it is.

 

Love Fiserv Forum. Have yet to see a regular season game there as I'm too far away to go a weeknight. For some reason I struggle paying a lot to see an NBA game. I used to go to Lambeau a lot and I'll go to MP any night, but I've always found the NBA pricing structure odd. They play 41 games and it just isn't that valuable to me to see Game 55 of the regular season. I won't sit upper bowl and I pretty much am only willing to sit in the middle, so I just never get the itch to pony up.

[MrTPlush]

Reminds me of Wrigley Field. One of those awesome historic pieces that looks great on the TV...but in reality going to a game there is borderline one of the worst possible experiences baseball can offer.

[OldHeidelberg]

This begs the question: what makes something a good... or great stadium? There must be something that is glaring that is an issue.

 

 

 

It's a fair question as I have only been to 5 other NFL stadiums in the past 20 years to compare. The SuperDome was awful as was the Metrodump. Arrowhead was really nice and big parking lots for fantastic tailgating, I was there before the long security lines kicked in so not sure how that part compares to Lambeau now. Miami has the big lots and tailgating too and security was a breeze but I did notice that while bathroom lines were shorter than Lambeau the concession lines were worse. Dallas was pretty nice all around but I was there for the SB and got booted into a bar below the field because they didn't have my seats ready so was hard to get a feel for it during the game. I guess the biggest thing people would point to other than the security/bathroom lines are the bleachers, would much rather have the bucket seats. But to be honest you are up and down so much during the game that its not like my back gets sore or anything, and cramming all those people in make for more good seats with a good view of the game.

 

So by NFL comparisons it probably isn't that much worse than most others, it's just a little more crowded than most. Miller Park is a much nicer experience, even when sold out.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I was at the Fail Mary game and that was the best stadium/experience I've had in the NFL. I don't mean experiencing history, but just the actual flow of the stadium, the views of the city from the concourse and the atmosphere/fan experience. For baseball, Oracle was my favorite.