Thank You CC!

[A Swing and A Drive]

 

CC Sabathia with an awesome farewell statement to Baseball:

 

“It all started in Vallejo, CA in my grandma’s backyard throwing grapefruits at a folding chair. I could have never imagined how much this game has meant to me since. Through the ups and downs, baseball has always been my home. From Cleveland, to Milwaukee, to New York and everywhere in between, I’m so thankful to have experienced this journey with every teammate past and present. All I ever wanted to do was to be a great teammate and win. I’m so proud of this year’s team, we fought til the end. Love you guys! I’m going to miss going out there on the mound and competing , but it’s time to say farewell. Thank you, Baseball.”

 

[sveumrules]

2008 was such a fun summer. I was so excited when we traded for CC that I immediately went on stubhub to buy tickets for his first start, only to realize after buying them we already had tickets for the game in our 20 pack.

 

Who makes your Mt. Rushmore of Brewers pitchers?

 

Higuera, Sheets & CC seem like an obvious first three, but the fourth face is a little trickier.

 

Fingers had one epic year, but Plesac & even Hader have provided similar or greater value out of the pen.

 

Vuke won CY, while guys like Haas, Caldwell, Bosio, Slaton & Yo had solid runs too, but none of them seem quite worthy of the last spot.

 

I think I go with Nieves for now until we get another no-no with Hader in line to replace him with another couple two tree years as the best reliever in MLB.

[long ball]

CC was incredible for the Brewers. He was a huge part of dragging that team to the playoffs and staving off a collapse. Every start he made was must see. I remember listening to his "1-hitter" on the radio with my dad and the way they were describing it as a come backer I told him "I bet if we get another inning or two and he still has a no-hitter going they might change it to an error"... Well they never did that, but it was still an incredible start. He sacrificed his body for a team that probably didn't have legit WS odds and weren't going to pony up for him in free agency. He pitched complete games and pitched on short rest. His time as a Brewer was memorable and special.

 

I desperately wanted the Brewers to re-sign him, but I knew they weren't going to. 2008 sorta feels like a turning point for the franchise. Once we got a taste of the playoff race I think fans began to expect more out of this team. Including 2008, they've been pretty competitive since. 7 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 2 NLCS appearances. CC feels like part of that changing tide even though he was only here for a few months of it.

[MadScientist]

I desperately wanted the Brewers to re-sign him, but I knew they weren't going to. 2008 sorta feels like a turning point for the franchise. Once we got a taste of the playoff race I think fans began to expect more out of this team. Including 2008, they've been pretty competitive since. 7 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 2 NLCS appearances. CC feels like part of that changing tide even though he was only here for a few months of it.

The Brewers did give him a credible offer, it's just that the damnyankees gave him an incredible offer.

 

Probably for the best, the Brewers would likely have treated him the same way in 09 that they did in 08, causing his arm to fall off and be an albatross contract for four years.

[Patrick425]

Yes, 2008 was a fun run with CC. Got tickets and took my son to his first game with the Brewers. Oddly, the thing that sticks out to me about that game were the bombs that Matt Holliday was hitting in BP.

 

I would not include CC on my Mt. Rushmore of Brewer pitchers. After Sheets and Higuera, it would be two of either Fingers, Caldwell, or Vuckovich.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

Hard to say Gallardo isn't on the mountain even though it doesn't really feel like he should be. Perhaps more a lack of good SP but still, 5 straight opening day starts and career comps that are scarily similar to Ben Sheets. Yeah, Sheets was a legit ace and a better pitcher, not arguing that, but the body of work suggests Gallardo is in the discussion.

[TURBO]

The fact that Gallardo would have to be considered saddens me.

 

Personally, he wouldn't be on mine.

 

CC, Teddy, Sheets, and Hader would be mine currently. Hopefully, in a couple years, Woodruff makes it!

[long ball]

The fact that Gallardo would have to be considered saddens me.

 

Personally, he wouldn't be on mine.

 

CC, Teddy, Sheets, and Hader would be mine currently. Hopefully, in a couple years, Woodruff makes it!

 

Even having Hader on the list is sad lol.

 

He only has 2.5 years of big league time. Even though he has literally been the best reliever in all of the MLB in that time span.

[JimH5]

CC's contribution was incredible that season. He's a Hall of Famer, and by many accounts, a terrific leader, beloved by teammates past and present. The 13 starts in 2008 earned him 4.9 BWAR, a figure unreached by any Brewers pitcher in a season since.

[Thurston Fluff]

The fact that Gallardo would have to be considered saddens me.

 

Personally, he wouldn't be on mine.

 

CC, Teddy, Sheets, and Hader would be mine currently. Hopefully, in a couple years, Woodruff makes it!

 

Personally I'd put Rollie Fingers in there before CC or Hader at this point. Obviously if Hader keeps it up he'll surpass Fingers but dude was special in 81-82.

[JimH5]

My Mt. Rushmore would be Caldwell, Higuera, Plesac and Sheets.

[TigerUppercut]

My Mt. Rushmore would be Caldwell, Higuera, Plesac and Sheets.

 

Agree with the exception of Plesac. I'd put Yo in his place.

[clancyphile]

Caldwell, Sheets, Plesac, Gallardo.

[stalton]

Not that WAR is the best stat, but according to B-Ref, Higuera, Sheets, Bosio and Wegman are our Top 4 pitchers.

[Bombers]

I desperately wanted the Brewers to re-sign him, but I knew they weren't going to. 2008 sorta feels like a turning point for the franchise. Once we got a taste of the playoff race I think fans began to expect more out of this team. Including 2008, they've been pretty competitive since. 7 winning seasons, 4 playoff appearances, 2 NLCS appearances. CC feels like part of that changing tide even though he was only here for a few months of it.

 

We all wanted CC but unfortunately he had to go where the money went. The worst part about it is we were awarded the Yankee's 2nd round pick because in some universe Mark Texiera was rated higher than Sabathia and the Yankee's first round pick was given to the Anaheim Angels. That pick would then be used to draft some dude name Mike Trout. We would draft some dude name Max Walla in the 2nd round and watch DJ LeMahieu and Patrick Corbin go a few picks later.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Not that WAR is the best stat, but according to B-Ref, Higuera, Sheets, Bosio and Wegman are our Top 4 pitchers.

 

I think this is proof that WAR is indeed NOT the best stat.

[MrTPlush]

Not that WAR is the best stat, but according to B-Ref, Higuera, Sheets, Bosio and Wegman are our Top 4 pitchers.

 

I think this is proof that WAR is indeed NOT the best stat.

 

I would have been way more interested in an average WAR per season (per 30 starts as an example) versus overall career WAR as a Brewer. That pretty much hands it to guys that spent a lot of time here (Wegman).

 

I think people underrate Bosio a bit. He had some stellar seasons.

 

We suck at getting young pitching and we rarely keep guys long. Career WAR is not a great stat to use.

[rickh150]

81 MVP and CY Young Fingers.... Vuke is on because of the 82 Cy Young. Then Higuera and Sheets are included for some great years with a little longevity.

[sveumrules]

Not that WAR is the best stat, but according to B-Ref, Higuera, Sheets, Bosio and Wegman are our Top 4 pitchers.

 

I think this is proof that WAR is indeed NOT the best stat.

 

bWAR has it...

 

Higuera (30.3) Sheets (25.6) Bosio (18.6) Wegman (17.8) Caldwell (17.3) Haas (15.7) Slaton (15.5) Gallardo (15.3)

 

fWAR has it...

 

Sheets (31.9) Higuera (26.7) Haas (20.9) Bosio (20.5) Gallardo (17.5) Caldwell (16.2) Wegman (13.7) Slaton (13.5)

 

Who do you believe the WAR calculations are over/undervaluing & why?

[Thurston Fluff]

Not that WAR is the best stat, but according to B-Ref, Higuera, Sheets, Bosio and Wegman are our Top 4 pitchers.

 

I think this is proof that WAR is indeed NOT the best stat.

 

bWAR has it...

 

Higuera (30.3) Sheets (25.6) Bosio (18.6) Wegman (17.8) Caldwell (17.3) Haas (15.7) Slaton (15.5) Gallardo (15.3)

 

fWAR has it...

 

Sheets (31.9) Higuera (26.7) Haas (20.9) Bosio (20.5) Gallardo (17.5) Caldwell (16.2) Wegman (13.7) Slaton (13.5)

 

Who do you believe the WAR calculations are over/undervaluing & why?

 

When two WAR's tell different stories doesn't that pretty much sum up the problem with WAR in general?

[sveumrules]

 

I think this is proof that WAR is indeed NOT the best stat.

 

bWAR has it...

 

Higuera (30.3) Sheets (25.6) Bosio (18.6) Wegman (17.8) Caldwell (17.3) Haas (15.7) Slaton (15.5) Gallardo (15.3)

 

fWAR has it...

 

Sheets (31.9) Higuera (26.7) Haas (20.9) Bosio (20.5) Gallardo (17.5) Caldwell (16.2) Wegman (13.7) Slaton (13.5)

 

Who do you believe the WAR calculations are over/undervaluing & why?

 

When two WAR's tell different stories doesn't that pretty much sum up the problem with WAR in general?

 

I don't believe so, since they are trying to communicate two different things, the results should be different.

 

bWAR is based on runs allowed with an adjustment made for team defense, while fWAR is based on FIP so only strikeouts, walks and home runs are taken into account since those are the three outcomes pitchers exert the most control over.

 

Both WARs are telling the same general story though, Higuera & Sheets are the best, then there is a grouping of six pitchers who provided relatively similar value, how you want to order those six pitchers could be argued in any number of ways.

 

Here are all the pitchers listed above with their career Brewers IP then ERA-/FIP- marks, which is essentially what bWAR/fWAR distill to one number. WAR is not perfect, but it is the best stat I know of to use as a starting point when comparing players from different eras. Which stat do you believe does a better job?

 

Sheets | 1428 IP | 87/81 | ERA-/FIP-

Higuera | 1380 IP | 86/85 | ERA-/FIP-

Haas | 1542 IP | 103/96 | ERA-/FIP-

Bosio | 1190 IP | 93/89 | ERA-/FIP-

Gallardo | 1289 IP | 93/91 | ERA-/FIP-

Caldwell | 1605 IP | 97/104 | ERA-/FIP-

Wegman | 1482 IP | 98/105 | ERA-/FIP-

Slaton | 2025 IP | 104/110 | ERA-/FIP-

[pacopete4]

Keep seeing the title and thinking Counsell retired.

 

I loved King Kong on the mound. If Melvin did anything wrong it is that he didn’t trade for him even sooner. Wish he had more years as a Brewer.