Milwaukee Bucks 2019 - 20 Season Thread

[OldSchoolSnapper]

We had a week to digest it. But one of the most disappointing sports things I can remember. This was such a fun team this year before all the mess.

[adambr2]

We had a week to digest it. But one of the most disappointing sports things I can remember. This was such a fun team this year before all the mess.

 

Unfortunately the consequences of it are very likely to extend beyond just being eliminated today.

 

They didn't quit as evidenced in Game 4 but Game 5 completely fit the narrative of Giannis just not having a #2 here.

[adamb100]

Good thing the next season starts in December. The quicker we can forget about this one the better.

[pacopete4]

Well, I was wrong. I thought they might dominate this one riding the high from the ending of game 4.

[owbc]

It's certainly a sad season, but it's difficult to put it into context with the circumstances. They weren't the same team after the long break. If this eventually leads to Giannis leaving Milwaukee I'll be sad, but until that happens I expect they will regroup and make another run next year.

[adambr2]

Good thing the next season starts in December. The quicker we can forget about this one the better.

 

Honestly pretty hard for me to get excited about next season. We had a championship caliber team in '18-19 and couldn't get to the Finals. Had an even more dominant team this year and couldn't even escape Round 2.

 

The Bucks of the last two seasons have been an organizational failure, there's no other way to put it. They had the pieces. For Giannis not to even have played in an NBA Final at this point is inexplicable.

[PinaMadness]

I'm no NBA expert but even I know it was a organizational mistake to let Brogdon go.

[adambr2]

I'm no NBA expert but even I know it was a organizational mistake to let Brogdon go.

 

You can argue about whether Brogdon was worth $21M a year, but they were a better team with Brogdon.

 

It did show they consciously decided that staying under the luxury tax was more important than maximizing their chance for a championship, no doubt.

[nate82]

We had a week to digest it. But one of the most disappointing sports things I can remember. This was such a fun team this year before all the mess.

 

Unfortunately the consequences of it are very likely to extend beyond just being eliminated today.

 

They didn't quit as evidenced in Game 4 but Game 5 completely fit the narrative of Giannis just not having a #2 here.

 

No it is the Bucks don't have a #3 option. Bledsoe is garbage and needs to be traded as soon as this season ends.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I don't think Brogdon would solve anything plaguing this team. Not the special handle they are lacking and not the shooter Middleton is.

 

I don't think there was an organizational failure either. I know it's easy to kick when down, but the Bucks were supremely dominant before the bubble. They adjusted to it poorly for reasons we may never know. Maybe it was attitude, maybe it was coaching, maybe the energy just wasn't there. I'll never believe the result of this series is the same of the Bucks open at a sold out Fiserv.

 

Just absolutely brutal timing for any Bucks fan. Sad, stinks, but I'm just not ready to call anything that unfolds in this circus act an organizational failure. This was a wrench beyond anything anyone could have predicted and they just never got it going.

[nate82]

I'm no NBA expert but even I know it was a organizational mistake to let Brogdon go.

 

The Bucks went with Bledsoe over Brogdon when they extended Bledsoe which was a bad idea. Plus Brogdon isn't even worth the contract he got but I would take Brogdon and that contract over Bledsoe and his contract.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

We had a week to digest it. But one of the most disappointing sports things I can remember. This was such a fun team this year before all the mess.

 

Unfortunately the consequences of it are very likely to extend beyond just being eliminated today.

 

They didn't quit as evidenced in Game 4 but Game 5 completely fit the narrative of Giannis just not having a #2 here.

 

No it is the Bucks don't have a #3 option. Bledsoe is garbage and needs to be traded as soon as this season ends.

 

Middleton is a 3. A shooter that isn't a reliable enough scorer to generate his own offense. They're masquerading him as a 2 and paying him like one, but he's a superb #3.

[adambr2]

It's crazy to think about but it's quite possible Giannis has played his last game ever in a Bucks' jersey.

 

Probably likelier for him to return but far from a foregone conclusion.

 

I'm guessing he doesn't ask for a trade - I think he wants to be back here in 2021, he doesn't want his Bucks career to end like this. But this probably is enough for him to shy away from committing to stay here long-term.

 

And if he hits the market, forget it. He's gone. He'll be getting schmoozed and hearing every sales pitch from Miami to L.A.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I really doubt the bubble playoffs are the tipping point. I have a feeling he's known the move he's making for quite some time. Whatever happened in the off period, the team that showed up in Orlando wasn't the same one we watched all year. I'm not sure they would have beaten any of the 3 other teams on the second round. They were just bad.

[brewcrewdue80]

No it is the Bucks don't have a #3 option. Bledsoe is garbage and needs to be traded as soon as this season ends.

 

Middleton is a 3. A shooter that isn't a reliable enough scorer to generate his own offense. They're masquerading him as a 2 and paying him like one, but he's a superb #3.

 

This^. Middleton was easily a #3 and not a #2 as being trotted out there as. Definitely not a max contract paid like a #1 much less a #2. Brogdon over Bledsoe. As the #3. Should have found Giannis a true #2.

 

Just a terrible end to what was such a shoe-in promising season. I do fully believe the "Bubble" vs a true H/A matchup advantage played a huge roll in the demise. Home games with fans in basketball to me have got to have the largest impact of any sport being home vs on the road. Energizing vs Deflating. A quick 6-0 run can explode to 24-6 run in a matter of minutes.

 

Can the team pull off a High contract trade involving Middleton for another? that nets the true 2 Giannis and the Bucks need?

[RollieTime]

I'm no NBA expert but even I know it was a organizational mistake to let Brogdon go.

 

The Bucks went with Bledsoe over Brogdon when they extended Bledsoe which was a bad idea. Plus Brogdon isn't even worth the contract he got but I would take Brogdon and that contract over Bledsoe and his contract.

 

Completely agree with both of you. Giving Brogdon $20 million per season may have been a little bit of an overpay, but he’s a great third option on a contending team. Good defense, can create his own shot, quick enough to beat his man to the basket on the offensive end. He’s exactly what we need and him leaving shouldn’t of even been an option.

[adambr2]

"Hopefully, we can learn from this and get better as a team," Antetokounmpo said after Tuesday's loss. "Come back and hopefully build a culture in Milwaukee for many years that we can come out here and compete every single year for a championship."

 

FWIW, Giannis didn't sound like a guy who is planning on going anywhere. Maybe it means nothing, but at least he said something positive about his future here.

[CheezWizHed]

Middleton is a 3. A shooter that isn't a reliable enough scorer to generate his own offense. They're masquerading him as a 2 and paying him like one, but he's a superb #3.

 

Khris put up 36 and 23 points against a playoff team while constantly making his own offense while his team stood around and watched. And while said playoff team knew he was their only real offense.

 

Now, he does disappear at times, but perhaps this means more offense should run through him instead of just Giannis.

[HiAndTight]

I don't think Brogdon would solve anything plaguing this team. Not the special handle they are lacking and not the shooter Middleton is.

 

I don't think there was an organizational failure either. I know it's easy to kick when down, but the Bucks were supremely dominant before the bubble. They adjusted to it poorly for reasons we may never know. Maybe it was attitude, maybe it was coaching, maybe the energy just wasn't there. I'll never believe the result of this series is the same of the Bucks open at a sold out Fiserv.

 

Just absolutely brutal timing for any Bucks fan. Sad, stinks, but I'm just not ready to call anything that unfolds in this circus act an organizational failure. This was a wrench beyond anything anyone could have predicted and they just never got it going.

 

I don't think it was an organizational failure and I don't think Brogdon would significantly change this team...I DO think the Bucks need a better coach. Their offense in game 5 actually moved. They lacked the talent without Giannis to beat the Heat, but there was at least a LITTLE movement.

 

Billy Donovan is now available and on the market. I don't know if firing another Head Coach would make Giannis more or less likely to stay, but I do think Donovan is a better coach and he'd give the Bucks a better chance moving forward.

 

 

Beyond that...I really don't know what the Bucks can do. I think DiVencezo is going to be a stud, though not a #2 on a championship team type.

 

 

I think the Bucks CAN win a Title without having a better #2 than Middleton but it's going to require at LEAST adding a player like a JJ Reddick...a real shooter who is at least a capable defender and who can score and better coaching. I just watched game 5 and thought if the Bucks could run this type of offense AND incorporate Giannis into it as opposed to Giannis starting with the ball 3 feet behind the line and trying to drive while 4 guys stay in their designated spots on the court, THAT could be a team that could win. If DiVincenzo could faciliate, Bled, and Giannis was the one cutting or if Middleton could operate out of the low post and get some damn ball movement, that team could win.

 

I still think this team as constructed if nothing changes, they could contend and maybe get to a finals next year if they only make minor tweaks and minor adjustments, but it's hard to see them beating a healthy Clippers, Lakers team or even keeping pace with the young and upcoming Mavs(who will actually be able to afford a Max contract in '21-22 which is a truly scary thought for the rest of the league as well as Bucks fans).

 

I loved Brogdon and thought he was a very nice player, but we saw what he did this year as the primary PG. He's not a primary option. He shot under 33 pct from 3 and wasn't as effective as he was last year. We'd be better with him, but only marginally. We need to fundamentally change HOW we run our offense as you can't rely on Giannis just taking over vs every team in the post-season.

 

You need to be able to manufacture offense through simple things.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Who cares about who is playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle if the alpha hasnt truly proven to be an NBA playoff alpha?? If Giannis doesn't improve his free throw shooting and find a way to develop a better midrange game, he isn't a solid #1 offensive option in the NBA playoffs. Not a popular opinion, i know, but that's played out the past two postseasons.

 

Also, Budenholzer's philosophy has proven to be good for regular season success in ATL and MKE, but it gets ground down in playoff series against teams capable of restricting the pace and flow of the game and forcing the bucks to run offensive sets.

 

I think alot more changes need to be made than what regular season records indicate for the bucks to be true title contenders.

[HiAndTight]

Middleton is a 3. A shooter that isn't a reliable enough scorer to generate his own offense. They're masquerading him as a 2 and paying him like one, but he's a superb #3.

 

Khris put up 36 and 23 points against a playoff team while constantly making his own offense while his team stood around and watched. And while said playoff team knew he was their only real offense.

 

Now, he does disappear at times, but perhaps this means more offense should run through him instead of just Giannis.

 

 

I think part of the problem is this obsession(which I certainly play into) with calling someone a #2 or a #3...like you need these certain guys to be a 1 a 2 and a 3 in order to win.

 

There are a lot of ways to win. The Piston's won without a #1 but with a bunch of #3's and a GREAT defender/rebounder. Probably the best for a period since Rodman in Ben Wallace at playing that role. The Spurs won with a #1 but without a prototypical #2....even as Parker and Manu developed, they were a well rounded team that played so well together that they could get by with Manu playing terribly or Parker playing poorly.

 

 

I think Bled is underappreciated. His flaws are obvious and people focus on that...and part of that I think again goes back to the offense. He made some incredible passes after penetrating tonight. And he can beat just about anyone in the league off the dribble...even with them sagging off and he can finish at the rim as well as most PG's...during the regular season. In the playoffs it's like he becomes so much more worried about getting a shot blocked and bails out(though nobody's cutting) and gets caught trying to make an overly difficult shot near the rim while falling away when if he just went up, he'd be exponentially more effective.

 

Khris Middleton is basically like a better version of Glenn Robinson. He doesn't have great handles, he gets in a little trouble when he dribbles in a crowd(not as bad as Big Dog, but...not great). But he's a very good defender and he's outstanding at hitting contested shots and the mid-range 3.

 

 

That said, if I'm the Bucks, I'd be using Bledsoe as trade bait. At 17 million, he's got value and when you factor in he doesn't have a guaranteed salary the year after, he's got that much more trade value.

 

 

First, I'd shoot for the moon. I'd package a guy like Bledsoe, Ersan's non-guaranteed deal, our 1st this year and in '24 and if we had to, Donte(though that'd hurt) for a guy like Beal. Not sure if that gets it done, but it does give them a young upcoming stud in DiVincenzo, ~25 million in cap relief for a team that's not competitive and 2 firsts and that first in '24...I guess you leave it unprotected because otherwise, it doesn't have much value.

 

That's pretty unlikely, but it's leave you with that "Number 2" that would fit the Bucks like a glove(and a team that he's praised REALLY strongely very recently).

 

When/if that doesn't work, I'd look at two guys;

 

JJ Reddick...a guy who was on the block this year. Not sure what it'd take to get him. His contract isn't that big. I'm guessing again, you'd have to part with DiVinenzo. I REALLY think he can be our Manu type, so I wouldn't love that for a 36 year old sharp shooter, but...

 

 

Goran Dragic-I think the Heat may let him walk. They want to both contend and maintain as much cap space as possible for the following summer. The question is, would he be willing to sign on for ~4/40 million or 2/20 to play for the Bucks as that's as much as they could offer. If he would...that'd be a nice upgrade offensively and as a playmaker.

 

Another maybe more realistic option would be Bogdan Bogdanović. He's a very solid shooter and with the uncertainty that surrounds the NBA's cap moving forward, he'd be a big upgrade over Matthews at the 2(though I'd certainly try to bring him back as he's a helluva glue guy).

 

Danilo Gallinari would also be a fantastic addition...and again, the only way I see this being plausible is if the market is poor and he's willing to take a little less to play for the MLE.

 

And then there's a rumor that the Bucks are interested in Chris Paul...who I love, but I'm at a total loss as to how in the hell that could happen. The Thunder aren't taking Middleton back and Bledsoe, Ersan...I guess Brook Lopez would get you there financially. The Thunder may send something else back like a pick or...whatever, I can't even begin to guess. It seems totally unrealistic. Which is too bad. Paul's still a great player and exactly what the Bucks need. But it appears as though his wanning years will be wasted on a good-but not great team.

 

 

 

 

So Bradley Beal, Danilo Gallinari, JJ Reddick, Bogdan Bogdanović, and the guy who just killed us, Goran Dragic.

 

 

More than anything...someone who's able to calm this team down and make big shots. The Bucks blew game 2 when they had 3 turnovers and couldn't get ANYTHING going in the end of the 4th quarter until a fluke sequence of events culminating in the Butler foul.

 

They lost game 3 by again, folding like a chair in the 4th quarter, giving away a 12 point lead and getting outscored by 27 in the 4th quarter. If they're able to operate efficently in either game, the Bucks are up 2-1 heading into game 4(which they won) and may very well be moving on.

 

 

So again, maybe that's mostly coaching, but if I ran the Bucks, I'd try covering all my bases by swapping Bud for Donovan and adding a better decision making ball handler who can shoot the ball. And ideally, I'd do that while keeping Bledsoe as I think his all around game is really underrated player who's game reminds me of Marcus Smart's...but he's expected to faciliate too much and he's proven that's where he's rather inept in the playoffs.

[HiAndTight]

"Hopefully, we can learn from this and get better as a team," Antetokounmpo said after Tuesday's loss. "Come back and hopefully build a culture in Milwaukee for many years that we can come out here and compete every single year for a championship."

 

FWIW, Giannis didn't sound like a guy who is planning on going anywhere. Maybe it means nothing, but at least he said something positive about his future here.

 

 

As a fan I both love hearing that. But I have two concerns about it. 1-He DOES sign the Super Max this off-season, and we all rejoice and breath a sigh of relief, but it doesn't put as much of the onus on the Bucks to go out and spend the money to put a better team on the floor.

2nd-Most stars say this. If they come back and don't figure out whatever it is that causes this team to play soooo slopily for such long stretches in big games, he may be signing a different tune.

 

 

 

He also made other quotes that were VERY strong about winning in Milwaukee and how some people see a wall and they try finding a way around it and others find a way over it.

[HiAndTight]

No it is the Bucks don't have a #3 option. Bledsoe is garbage and needs to be traded as soon as this season ends.

 

Middleton is a 3. A shooter that isn't a reliable enough scorer to generate his own offense. They're masquerading him as a 2 and paying him like one, but he's a superb #3.

 

This^. Middleton was easily a #3 and not a #2 as being trotted out there as. Definitely not a max contract paid like a #1 much less a #2. Brogdon over Bledsoe. As the #3. Should have found Giannis a true #2.

 

Just a terrible end to what was such a shoe-in promising season. I do fully believe the "Bubble" vs a true H/A matchup advantage played a huge roll in the demise. Home games with fans in basketball to me have got to have the largest impact of any sport being home vs on the road. Energizing vs Deflating. A quick 6-0 run can explode to 24-6 run in a matter of minutes.

 

Can the team pull off a High contract trade involving Middleton for another? that nets the true 2 Giannis and the Bucks need?

 

 

No, I don't believe they can. Who can you think of that's both an upgrade over Middleton RIGHT NOW, but also a player another team wants to get rid of?

 

The Thunder aren't trading Paul for Middleton and I don't think I'd want a 35 year old who has 85 million remaining in place of Middleton anyway.

 

I really don't see Middleton as even part of the problem, much less THEE problem.

 

 

We saw what the Bucks were able to do with ball movement. Play that same way WITH Giannis and this team can compete.

[HiAndTight]

Who cares about who is playing 2nd and 3rd fiddle if the alpha hasnt truly proven to be an NBA playoff alpha?? If Giannis doesn't improve his free throw shooting and find a way to develop a better midrange game, he isn't a solid #1 offensive option in the NBA playoffs. Not a popular opinion, i know, but that's played out the past two postseasons.

 

Also, Budenholzer's philosophy has proven to be good for regular season success in ATL and MKE, but it gets ground down in playoff series against teams capable of restricting the pace and flow of the game and forcing the bucks to run offensive sets.

 

I think alot more changes need to be made than what regular season records indicate for the bucks to be true title contenders.

 

 

It's not popular because it's not true. There's no rule that your #1 option needs to be a great perimeter player.

 

The problem isn't Giannis, the problem is that Giannis is asked to be the main facilitator late in the game.

 

Shaq was a terrible shooter. He was a #1 option even before Kobe became the 2nd greatest 2 guard of all time.

 

The problem is the over-reliance on Giannis in late game situations and 4 players standing around. That means you're going to have to make tough, contested shots MOST of the time and you're not going to get the easy buckets you saw Matthews, DiVincenzo and Hill get at times in game 5 when they were actually moving.

[HiAndTight]

I'm no NBA expert but even I know it was a organizational mistake to let Brogdon go.

 

The Bucks went with Bledsoe over Brogdon when they extended Bledsoe which was a bad idea. Plus Brogdon isn't even worth the contract he got but I would take Brogdon and that contract over Bledsoe and his contract.

 

 

I don't think that's the case. Remember, even after Brogdon broke out last year people were talking about him getting 12-14 million. So I'm not convinced that they signed him thinking, "this means we're gonna let Brogdon leave."

 

Also...I think Brogdon's a little overrated. He was outstanding coming in last year in the post-season and hitting some timely shots, but in a larger role for the Pacers this year, as the central focus of that offense, he shot WORSE than Bled did from the field and he shot worse from 3 than Bled's career averages and worse than Bled shot this year.

 

Brogdon was great as the 4th or 5th guy, and I loved him...but we kinda saw what he did when more was exected out of him. Add to that that Bled is a FAR superior defender and he's getting paid less and his contract isn't guaranteed after the 21-22 season(meaning he's got a lot of trade value for a team that may be looking to move a big contract*cough*Bradley*Beal*cough) and I think it's really an oversimplification that they both choose Bled over Brogdon and that Brogdon would be better for this team.

 

 

 

 

Now if you could somehow just get a sports psychologist to talk to Bled so that he doesn't change the way he attacks the basket in the playoffs compared to the regular season, THEN we might actually have a player who's worth what he's paid...but I don't think anyone's counting on that transformation. Bledsoe is a Marcus Smart-esque player. The flaw...IMO is not with him. It's with what we're asking him to do. And I think Brogdon would be equally limited if we asked him to go out there and actually run the point for a full season.