2019 MLB Postseason: NLDS & ALDS Series

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Don't worry about Nats and Rays because the Cardinals will be winning the World Series.

 

*barf

[dlk9s]

Yeah, this NLCS is no good. Normally I'd root for an underdog, but I just wanted the Dodgers or maybe the Braves to get through. It won't be fun watching either the Cardinals or the team that beat us to make it to the World Series.

 

Go Astros?

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

Yeah, this NLCS is no good. Normally I'd root for an underdog, but I just wanted the Dodgers or maybe the Braves to get through. It won't be fun watching either the Cardinals or the team that beat us to make it to the World Series.

 

Go Astros?

 

I have no ill will against the Nationals. It's actually pretty neat IMO to see them make it this far after losing Mr. Universe in the offseason. Yeah, they beat the Brewers, but I would argue that was more the Brewers beating themselves.

[dlk9s]

Nah, they can go straight to hell.

[Outlander]

Nah, they can go straight to hell.

Agreed

[clancyphile]

Yeah, this NLCS is no good. Normally I'd root for an underdog, but I just wanted the Dodgers or maybe the Braves to get through. It won't be fun watching either the Cardinals or the team that beat us to make it to the World Series.

 

Go Astros?

 

I have no ill will against the Nationals. It's actually pretty neat IMO to see them make it this far after losing Mr. Universe in the offseason. Yeah, they beat the Brewers, but I would argue that was more the Brewers beating themselves.

 

I'm OK with the Nats, if only because the Crew had no Yelich, was limping into the last week of the season with the health situations of Cain and Braun, the Nats did NOT do any of that Cub/Cardinal BS that made them hate-able, and because the Nats did lose Harper to one of those mega-deals.

[clancyphile]

If you need a chant to win a baseball game you aren't much of a baseball team.

 

Put yourself in the position of a Braves fan. It's the decisive game of a playoff series... they usually have the foam tomahawks... only this time, you get to the ballpark, and there's no tomahawk. Because a player on the team that the Braves have to beat to get to the NLCS complained to the media, and they front office of your home team backed down.

 

Some of the wind had to have gone out of the sails of the fans. The players had to have noticed that, too. The Cards, knowing the Braves backed off THEIR tradition in THEIR home park, had to have felt a bit of a mental boost going into the decisive game of a playoff series.

 

I guarantee you, if it had been Brewers-Braves in the NLDS, there's no Ryan Helsley on the Crew to make that complaint. There's no way the tomahawk chop WOULDN'T have been in full effect for Game 5 of a Brewers-Braves NLDS in SunTrust Park.

 

I think it's stupid to deny that Helsley managed to mitigate the Braves' home-field advantage in the decisive game of the 2019 NLDS. Maybe the Cards still light up the Braves in the top of the first for ten innings. But maybe it doesn't go that way, and you won't go broke betting that Braves fans are asking those questions right now.

[Ennder]

I think it is a pretty large stretch to think the tomahawk impacted the first inning of that game to the point they gave up 10 runs. I mean it would be a stretch to think it caused 1 or 2 runs, with 10 it is something way more than a stretch.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

If you need a chant to win a baseball game you aren't much of a baseball team.

 

Put yourself in the position of a Braves fan. It's the decisive game of a playoff series... they usually have the foam tomahawks... only this time, you get to the ballpark, and there's no tomahawk. Because a player on the team that the Braves have to beat to get to the NLCS complained to the media, and they front office of your home team backed down.

 

Some of the wind had to have gone out of the sails of the fans. The players had to have noticed that, too. The Cards, knowing the Braves backed off THEIR tradition in THEIR home park, had to have felt a bit of a mental boost going into the decisive game of a playoff series.

 

I guarantee you, if it had been Brewers-Braves in the NLDS, there's no Ryan Helsley on the Crew to make that complaint. There's no way the tomahawk chop WOULDN'T have been in full effect for Game 5 of a Brewers-Braves NLDS in SunTrust Park.

 

I think it's stupid to deny that Helsley managed to mitigate the Braves' home-field advantage in the decisive game of the 2019 NLDS. Maybe the Cards still light up the Braves in the top of the first for ten innings. But maybe it doesn't go that way, and you won't go broke betting that Braves fans are asking those questions right now.

 

Counterpoint - The Tomahawk Chop is stupid, pretty blatantly racist, and MLB should have stepped in an put a stop to it long ago. Helsley should have never been in the position to have to take a stand.

[clancyphile]

I think it is a pretty large stretch to think the tomahawk impacted the first inning of that game to the point they gave up 10 runs. I mean it would be a stretch to think it caused 1 or 2 runs, with 10 it is something way more than a stretch.

 

With baseball, we can't tell for sure, either way.

 

But I don't think the Braves would have dumped the chop if it hadn't been for Helsley.

 

If it were Brewers-Braves, and the Crew has no one like Helsley to make that complaint, do you think the Braves still dump the chop for the decisive game in the NLDS?

 

Yes or no.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

I think it is a pretty large stretch to think the tomahawk impacted the first inning of that game to the point they gave up 10 runs. I mean it would be a stretch to think it caused 1 or 2 runs, with 10 it is something way more than a stretch.

 

With baseball, we can't tell for sure, either way.

 

But I don't think the Braves would have dumped the chop if it hadn't been for Helsley.

 

If it were Brewers-Braves, and the Crew has no one like Helsley to make that complaint, do you think the Braves still dump the chop for the decisive game in the NLDS?

 

Yes or no.

 

No ... but the team being so quick to dump it when Helsley complained also tells me that deep down the team brass knows it's wrong and that it was only a matter of time before someone stepped in and ended it.

[OldSchoolSnapper]

I think it is a pretty large stretch to think the tomahawk impacted the first inning of that game to the point they gave up 10 runs. I mean it would be a stretch to think it caused 1 or 2 runs, with 10 it is something way more than a stretch.

 

With baseball, we can't tell for sure, either way.

 

But I don't think the Braves would have dumped the chop if it hadn't been for Helsley.

 

If it were Brewers-Braves, and the Crew has no one like Helsley to make that complaint, do you think the Braves still dump the chop for the decisive game in the NLDS?

 

Yes or no.

 

No ... but the team being so quick to dump it when Helsley complained also tells me that deep down the team brass knows it's wrong and that it was only a matter of time before someone stepped in and ended it.

 

Exactly. I think it is a stupid, archaic gesture, but the fact that they did this is a public admittance of them feeling the same. They can't go back from this. Also, the kid was asked and answered. He said how he felt. It's not like he called a conference to blast the chop.

[A Swing and A Drive]

Enjoyed watching the mass exodus of Dodgers fans after that slam

 

Most Dodgers fans arrived in the 3rd inning and left in the 7th so they didn't actually see any of this carnage.

 

Had to read about it this morning though, lol.

[tmwiese55]

I can't believe someone thinks this mattered in this game at all when they got pounced on in 1st inning. I guess I could see someone arguing if it got to late game in a crunch situation but couldn't do it and then gave up some runs. I wouldn't agree, but I'd get the discussion. In this case, the game was over before it started. My gut has also had me think the actual chop stuff isn't inherently racist/demeaning, but I also admit to not being informed or having read up on the history or anything so more than open to the other view on it if I knew more info.

 

The name Redskins on the other, clearly. I've also thought that an owner like Dan Snider who is publicly hated and a terrible owner would wisen up enough to get an easy PR win by changing the name and he still hasn't done it. Just seems like such an easy move

[clancyphile]

If you need a chant to win a baseball game you aren't much of a baseball team.

 

Put yourself in the position of a Braves fan. It's the decisive game of a playoff series... they usually have the foam tomahawks... only this time, you get to the ballpark, and there's no tomahawk. Because a player on the team that the Braves have to beat to get to the NLCS complained to the media, and they front office of your home team backed down.

 

Some of the wind had to have gone out of the sails of the fans. The players had to have noticed that, too. The Cards, knowing the Braves backed off THEIR tradition in THEIR home park, had to have felt a bit of a mental boost going into the decisive game of a playoff series.

 

I guarantee you, if it had been Brewers-Braves in the NLDS, there's no Ryan Helsley on the Crew to make that complaint. There's no way the tomahawk chop WOULDN'T have been in full effect for Game 5 of a Brewers-Braves NLDS in SunTrust Park.

 

I think it's stupid to deny that Helsley managed to mitigate the Braves' home-field advantage in the decisive game of the 2019 NLDS. Maybe the Cards still light up the Braves in the top of the first for ten innings. But maybe it doesn't go that way, and you won't go broke betting that Braves fans are asking those questions right now.

 

Counterpoint - The Tomahawk Chop is stupid, pretty blatantly racist, and MLB should have stepped in an put a stop to it long ago. Helsley should have never been in the position to have to take a stand.

 

FSU has long had the approval of the Seminole tribe for the chop, as noted by NBC sports (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/10/06/braves-say-they-take-ryan-helsleys-concerns-about-tomahawk-chop-seriously/).

 

The tomahawk chop was exported to the Atlanta Braves from Florida State University by a FSU alum (Deion Sanders). MLB even acknowledges that (https://www.mlb.com/news/tbt-reliving-deion-sanders-baseball-career-c163606644). Incidentally, just a little Youtube searching reveals that it was FSU fans attending Braves spring training games that started that tradition (

).

 

So what we have is a Cherokee complaining about a Seminole-approved tradition from FSU that was exported to Atlanta via FSU fans supporting a FSU alum playing for the Braves and things took off from there.

 

The notion racism is involved is flat-out nonsense.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

FSU has long had the approval of the Seminole tribe for the chop, as noted by NBC sports (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/10/06/braves-say-they-take-ryan-helsleys-concerns-about-tomahawk-chop-seriously/).

 

The tomahawk chop was exported to the Atlanta Braves from Florida State University by a FSU alum (Deion Sanders). MLB even acknowledges that (https://www.mlb.com/news/tbt-reliving-deion-sanders-baseball-career-c163606644). Incidentally, just a little Youtube searching reveals that it was FSU fans attending Braves spring training games that started that tradition (

).

 

So what we have is a Cherokee complaining about a Seminole-approved tradition from FSU that was exported to Atlanta via FSU fans supporting a FSU alum playing for the Braves and things took off from there.

 

The notion racism is involved is flat-out nonsense.

 

So it's ok because it was originally used to cheer for an African American that played for the team 30 years ago? Um ... ok. I personally don't care how it got it's start in Atlanta. That doesn't change my opinion that it is stupid and, yes, racist.

[clancyphile]

I can't believe someone thinks this mattered in this game at all when they got pounced on in 1st inning. I guess I could see someone arguing if it got to late game in a crunch situation but couldn't do it and then gave up some runs. I wouldn't agree, but I'd get the discussion. In this case, the game was over before it started. My gut has also had me think the actual chop stuff isn't inherently racist/demeaning, but I also admit to not being informed or having read up on the history or anything so more than open to the other view on it if I knew more info.

 

The name Redskins on the other, clearly. I've also thought that an owner like Dan Snider who is publicly hated and a terrible owner would wisen up enough to get an easy PR win by changing the name and he still hasn't done it. Just seems like such an easy move

 

Well, the most common response to the "Redskins" name among Native Americans, per NBC sports reporting on a Washington Post poll from this past August, is...

 

"Proud."

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/10/poll-of-native-americans-view-of-redskins-name-finds-proud-most-common-answer/

 

Tracks with results from a 2016 poll showing 90 percent support for the name.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/05/19/dan-snyder-gratified-by-native-american-support-for-redskins/

[clancyphile]

 

FSU has long had the approval of the Seminole tribe for the chop, as noted by NBC sports (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/10/06/braves-say-they-take-ryan-helsleys-concerns-about-tomahawk-chop-seriously/).

 

The tomahawk chop was exported to the Atlanta Braves from Florida State University by a FSU alum (Deion Sanders). MLB even acknowledges that (https://www.mlb.com/news/tbt-reliving-deion-sanders-baseball-career-c163606644). Incidentally, just a little Youtube searching reveals that it was FSU fans attending Braves spring training games that started that tradition (

).

 

So what we have is a Cherokee complaining about a Seminole-approved tradition from FSU that was exported to Atlanta via FSU fans supporting a FSU alum playing for the Braves and things took off from there.

 

The notion racism is involved is flat-out nonsense.

 

So it's ok because it was originally used to cheer for an African American that played for the team 30 years ago? Um ... ok. I personally don't care how it got it's start in Atlanta. That doesn't change my opinion that it is stupid and, yes, racist.

 

Nice that you seem to ignore the Seminole-approved part.

 

Sometimes a team's front office needs to stick up for their fans - especially against a visiting team's player when the complaint is clearly nonsense.

[Ron Robinsons Beard]

 

FSU has long had the approval of the Seminole tribe for the chop, as noted by NBC sports (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/10/06/braves-say-they-take-ryan-helsleys-concerns-about-tomahawk-chop-seriously/).

 

The tomahawk chop was exported to the Atlanta Braves from Florida State University by a FSU alum (Deion Sanders). MLB even acknowledges that (https://www.mlb.com/news/tbt-reliving-deion-sanders-baseball-career-c163606644). Incidentally, just a little Youtube searching reveals that it was FSU fans attending Braves spring training games that started that tradition (

).

 

So what we have is a Cherokee complaining about a Seminole-approved tradition from FSU that was exported to Atlanta via FSU fans supporting a FSU alum playing for the Braves and things took off from there.

 

The notion racism is involved is flat-out nonsense.

 

So it's ok because it was originally used to cheer for an African American that played for the team 30 years ago? Um ... ok. I personally don't care how it got it's start in Atlanta. That doesn't change my opinion that it is stupid and, yes, racist.

 

Nice that you seem to ignore the Seminole-approved part.

 

Sometimes a team's front office needs to stick up for their fans - especially against a visiting team's player when the complaint is clearly nonsense.

 

I wasn't. I assume that Florida State has made rather large "donations" to the Seminole tribe over the years.

[dlk9s]

I think it's stupid to deny that Helsley managed to mitigate the Braves' home-field advantage in the decisive game of the 2019 NLDS.

 

Eh, it's pretty stupid.

 

Also, Braves fans still did the chop during the game.

 

Also, it's racist.

[82brewcrew82]

 

FSU has long had the approval of the Seminole tribe for the chop, as noted by NBC sports (https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/10/06/braves-say-they-take-ryan-helsleys-concerns-about-tomahawk-chop-seriously/).

 

The tomahawk chop was exported to the Atlanta Braves from Florida State University by a FSU alum (Deion Sanders). MLB even acknowledges that (https://www.mlb.com/news/tbt-reliving-deion-sanders-baseball-career-c163606644). Incidentally, just a little Youtube searching reveals that it was FSU fans attending Braves spring training games that started that tradition (

).

 

So what we have is a Cherokee complaining about a Seminole-approved tradition from FSU that was exported to Atlanta via FSU fans supporting a FSU alum playing for the Braves and things took off from there.

 

The notion racism is involved is flat-out nonsense.

 

So it's ok because it was originally used to cheer for an African American that played for the team 30 years ago? Um ... ok. I personally don't care how it got it's start in Atlanta. That doesn't change my opinion that it is stupid and, yes, racist.

 

Nice that you seem to ignore the Seminole-approved part.

 

Sometimes a team's front office needs to stick up for their fans - especially against a visiting team's player when the complaint is clearly nonsense.

Are you Native American? I mean, who the heck are you to speak for an entire ethnic group(s)? Further, you site a couple of surveys (not polls mind you) that contacted 1000 Native Americans in total and claim that proves a point? The below link clearly indicates the enormous number of indigenous tribes and associated groups that do NOT think this is nonsense and DEFINITELY have an issue with the name. You are just wrong here in almost every way and frankly, just offensive.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Washington_Redskins_name_change_advocates

[owbc]

FSU reached out and got official approval. The Braves have not. The Braves have ignored the issues with the chop rather than facing them. So it shouldn’t be a surprise when they get into the playoffs, play the chop song after every single pitch, and then get questions from the media about it which leads to controversy.

 

These traditions were initially appropriated without permission. Doesn’t really matter if they are “racist” or not, what matters is that it was disrespectful and if you are going to continue using them you better be going above and beyond to reach out to a large number of tribal communities and get overwhelming approval. Or better yet recognize that it was stolen and just stop without having to be forced to do so after public outcry. Zero sympathy for the Braves.

[tmwiese55]

I can't believe someone thinks this mattered in this game at all when they got pounced on in 1st inning. I guess I could see someone arguing if it got to late game in a crunch situation but couldn't do it and then gave up some runs. I wouldn't agree, but I'd get the discussion. In this case, the game was over before it started. My gut has also had me think the actual chop stuff isn't inherently racist/demeaning, but I also admit to not being informed or having read up on the history or anything so more than open to the other view on it if I knew more info.

 

The name Redskins on the other, clearly. I've also thought that an owner like Dan Snider who is publicly hated and a terrible owner would wisen up enough to get an easy PR win by changing the name and he still hasn't done it. Just seems like such an easy move

 

Well, the most common response to the "Redskins" name among Native Americans, per NBC sports reporting on a Washington Post poll from this past August, is...

 

"Proud."

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/08/10/poll-of-native-americans-view-of-redskins-name-finds-proud-most-common-answer/

 

Tracks with results from a 2016 poll showing 90 percent support for the name.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/05/19/dan-snyder-gratified-by-native-american-support-for-redskins/

 

The term in itself is indisputably racist. It's the equivalent of the N bomb for that group of people. A term like Brave or Chief in itself doesn't seem like it would be as you could be taking honor in the bravery of those people, think of it on par with something like Spartans in that sense. It would become racist/demeaning if you then start making a mockery of them with negative stereotypes and caricatures, which is where the chop discussion comes into it.

[82brewcrew82]

The term in itself is indisputably racist. It's the equivalent of the N bomb for that group of people. A term like Brave or Chief in itself doesn't seem like it would be as you could be taking honor in the bravery of those people, think of it on par with something like Spartans in that sense. It would become racist/demeaning if you then start making a mockery of them with negative stereotypes and caricatures, which is where the chop discussion comes into it.

To your point, FSU went far beyond just getting approval and in fact worked with the Tribe to eliminate, or change, a number of traditions that once existed on campus that the tribe felt were racist/demeaning. That says nothing of the lengths that FSU goes to in order to make sure that students and student athletes view their School nickname with reverence. What Washington and Atlanta are doing is the nonsense part of all of this.

[sveumrules]

Can't imagine too many Pirates fans are pumped for tonight's Glasnow/Cole match up.